Has Subaru Peaked?

[Scottbaru]

the extra weight of the truck will require it to be substantially thicker framed than the car to provide the same crumple protection - which, in turn increases the weight further. It's not a linear relationship between the two, and pound for pound the car will have better crumple protection than the truck.

Have you seen how much some of the big luxury cars weigh these days? Yikes! And they're computer designed and crash tested to crumple despite being much sturdier than lighter cars (and SUVs). Properly designed SUVs are no different.

That's just bull************. Sorry. Ever heard of people hitting those things called trees? They don't have much 'give'. Neither does concrete, dumptrucks, etc. Quit defending them. They're slow ill handling pieces of crap that endanger everyone else.

You've never seen trees taken out by a car? A big tree will crumple an SUV or car the same. A smaller one may go down for the SUV. Same with all the infinite number of potential obstacles.

 

I'm not really defending SUVs, I wish we'd raised gas taxes in the Clinton years so we would have less SUVs, more gas, better roads, and more sports wagons for me to choose from. The thing is, it really chafes me to hear all this anti-SUV rhetoric repeated by car enthusiasts. This information was put together as a persuasive effort, not an unbiased study. Most of it either doesn't hold up to examination, isn't statistically significant, or is only true for a few models of SUV.

[Subaru_dude]

I very rarely hear about 2 cars hitting head on. Most of the time it's collisions with trees or, in an SUV's case, rollovers. Rollovers, obviously, are deadly because you could very easily be ejected from the vehicle. Possibly even crushed under the vehicles own immense weight. This won't, most likely, happen with a car because of the lower center of gravity. Especially if you're in a Subaru with a boxer engine:grin: .

 

When a much larger and heavier vehicle hits something like, say, a tree... there is much more cumpling and deforming of the frame because the vehicle is so heavy, the sheer momentum alone does a fair amount of it's own damage to the frame. In the real world cars usually run into ditches, hit trees, or in many cases vehicles will collide. But it isn't too common that it's a head on collision.

 

I think instead of worrying about how safe we are and how high off the ground we are, we should worry about something called Global Warming... sound familiar to anybody? It's that thing that could throw off the delicate balance of the earth's climate and cause a major misbalance in the planet's ecosystems. Ever wonder why tomatos are so darn expensive? I'm not bashing all SUV owners or anything, but I'm sure everybody's seen the lady on her cell phone driving her Suburban or Excursion... right? Yeah, you've seen her. The lady with 2 kids and room for 9? Yep, that's her... not even so much as a trailer hitch. Is excess bliss or just wasteful? You tell me.

 

supply..... DEMAND I may not be a rocket scientist, but something tells me this isn't the most intelligent way to run our country. If you drive an oversized SUV to feel safe, maybe it would be a good idea to quit being so selfish and give our country a fighting chance to be truly independant, if you know what I'm talking about. Sorry to anybody who took offense to this post. Tell me if this post could get this message board shut down... I'll apologize and respond accordingly if need be.

[Gnuman]

supply..... DEMAND I may not be a rocket scientist, but something tells me this isn't the most intelligent way to run our country. If you drive an oversized SUV to feel safe, maybe it would be a good idea to quit being so selfish and give our country a fighting chance to be truly independant, if you know what I'm talking about. Sorry to anybody who took offense to this post. Tell me if this post could get this message board shut down... I'll apologize and respond accordingly if need be.

 

I still have enough faith in my country that I doubt that post could get the site shut down, by itself anyway. In order for high gas prices to do any good, however, you need a feasable alternative to the single passenger car. In most of the country, that is simply not in place, and will not be in the near future. By the time it is, it may be too late to do any good. More important than the question of whether Subaru has peaked, look at the fact that oil production has peaked. We are running out. What we need is an alternative to Dino Oil to use as fuel. Preferably one that produces less pollution when burned, and will run in the older cars as well as new cars made to use it. . . Oh, and when Great Big SUV like cars stop being a status symbol, there will be less people driving them, and less companies making them (often with less than optimal results)

[Scottbaru]

oil production has peaked. We are running out.

Amen. Now that's the real reason people need to stop buying so many SUVs. All the fantastic stories about how unsafe SUVs are hasn't made a dent in sales. People either don't believe them or don't care. I travel to Europe and Canada often, SUVs aren't nearly as common as the U.S. The difference? Gas prices. That works, raving about them doesn't. You can't legislate against SUVs, you can't even define them. Gas prices will reduce SUVs, make people buy more efficient cars, and carmakers produce more efficient cars. I just switched for that reason. Anyone remember the 80's? People in big cars were considered clueless and behind the times. If you want to rave about something usefully, go after the Califonia Air Resources Board. They've been holding up diesel car sales in California for years, so carmakers aren't bringing them to market in the U.S. That would save a lot of oil, as it does in most countries. Lobby for higher gas taxes.

[nixon]

CRAP!!! Higher gas prices do not stop those that can afford them from buying SUVs. GREAT Britain has amongst the highest gas prices in the world, at $8 a gallon but SUVs are the fastest growing market sector despite 8-10mpg. Why? It doesn't snow here-we had a couple of inches 2 weeks ago and it was gone by lunchtime. The country ground to a halt, and it made the news for a week!

 

Time was, you needed a land rover to get through the mud. Now we have drought warnings in march. That reminds me-will aircon work with that giant forester sunroof open? Will it keep my tootsies cool?

[svxcess]

Subies seem to be an addiction, a paradox and maybe even obsession. There quick but not real fast...a looker with some looks...and dependable to the hilt...unless it breaks down...rarely. I drive subies because I like them...quirks and all. All I know is in the months of cold,frozen weather my ol' 92 leg wag always goes chug..chug..chug..bang and starts and it's been doing it for years! Peaked? I don't think so.

[Scottbaru]

CRAP!!! Higher gas prices do not stop those that can afford them from buying SUVs. GREAT Britain has amongst the highest gas prices in the world, at $8 a gallon but SUVs are the fastest growing market sector despite 8-10mpg.

Ouch, I think only the hummer gets mileage that bad, nothing else comes close. I noticed a lot of smaller SUVs over there, often with small turbo-diesels. They're bigger than your cars, which are typically smaller than ours, but they aren't huge. I don't commonly see hummers, escalades, excursions, and navigators, those are bigger than most of your commercial trucks! It's still a bad trend toward less efficiency, but fuel prices still make huge SUVs a rarity there compared to here. Those who can afford to waste energy will continue to, but higher prices will reduce that number.

[pulloff]

I own 2 Outbacks, I’m obviously a fan of Subaru, to give my opinion on the original question… yes I think Subaru has or is close to peaking.

 

I want a fuel efficient reliable car that’s AWD, Subaru was the closest thing I could find at the time, but times are changing and now I have tons of options.

 

I am still a fan of my cars but I am more than a little turned off but their lack of accountability on the HG issues and their lack of developing a more efficient engine. All I hear on commercials for any car company is HP this and HP that, Subaru included. I’m sick of HP! I’m starting to care more about MPG than HP. Where is Subaru’s hybrid? Where’s their turbo diesel?

 

I don’t owe them anything but I think they owe Phase 1 owners some acknowledgement of the HG issues. Next time I go car shopping I will buy the most reliable, AWD, efficient car I can. I really don’t care who puts the badge on the hood. If it’s a Subaru fine, if not oh well!

[rweddy]

I own 2 Outbacks, I’m obviously a fan of Subaru, to give my opinion on the original question… yes I think Subaru has or is close to peaking.

 

I want a fuel efficient reliable car that’s AWD, Subaru was the closest thing I could find at the time, but times are changing and now I have tons of options.

Tons of options?

Audi/VW/Volvo????

If you go this route you better have deep pockets or a relative that is a mechanic.

Now if Honda makes a AWD Wagon then there could be issues.

But the only other one is the Toyota Matrix and this econo box is not even close to anything subaru, they are terrible.

I am still a fan of my cars but I am more than a little turned off but their lack of accountability on the HG issues and their lack of developing a more efficient engine.

2.5 issues are overrated here on this board, not as bad as you are lead to believe here.

[pulloff]

HG may be inflated on this board, I’m only speaking from personal experience, but I know 4 people who own 97-99 OBW’s besides myself. All 4 have blown the HG’s. I know that’s a small sampling but 5 for 5 (me included) tends to be more than a coincidence in my opinion.

 

As for AWD don’t forget Mitsubishi, Ford, Chrysler/Dodge, or a minivan from Saturn and Toyota wouldn’t be far off as far as MPG is concerned, and that’s just what is being offered this year. Who knows what the next few years will bring, tons and tons more!

 

Don’t get me wrong I’m not turning my back on Subaru, but I do feel that they have turned a blind eye on their customers with the “over” blown HG issue. Why did they redesign the HG so many times?

 

All I am saying is if I was car shopping tomorrow I would have a few more choices than I had in the past and a harder decision.

[Subaru_dude]

97-2000 were the worst years for Subarus head gaskets actually.

HG may be inflated on this board, I’m only speaking from personal experience, but I know 4 people who own 97-99 OBW’s besides myself. All 4 have blown the HG’s. I know that’s a small sampling but 5 for 5 (me included) tends to be more than a coincidence in my opinion.

[rweddy]

HG may be inflated on this board, I’m only speaking from personal experience, but I know 4 people who own 97-99 OBW’s besides myself. All 4 have blown the HG’s......

And I can tell you of several of 5 of my friends who have 2.5 with over 150k with no issues. I tend to take a statistical approach to this. Subaru’s are all over the place here in Colorado. This is the number one state for Subaru’s. I have talked to lots of private Subaru specialty shops here and they will tell you that it is a very low percentage of 2.5 that have HG issues. There is more than there should be but it is not the epidemic it is made out to be on this forum. Also these issues can be traced back to improper coolant maint. and bleeding procedures.

 

Subaru has redesigned it after years of data to make it better, but it is not the issue that Toyota had with 100% of the v6 3.0 motors of the 90s. Would you want them to sit back and not do anything? I am not saying that there are not 2.5 HG issues, but considering that this is the only small issue with the cars, I will take a small HG repair on a car that is otherwise 100% solid over most if not all other offerings available today.

 

Mitsubishi has one AWD Sedan EVO and that is on line with the STI but not a car for most as a daily driver.

 

Ford, Chrysler/Dodge, or a minivan from Saturn – Subaru has no competition from these today and most Subaru or Japan car buyers would not buy them even if they had an offering because it would be in line with their other models and be POS like they have now. These manufactures cars are sub quality and you get what you pay for.

Yes Toyota and Honda might come up with something but that is in the future, and the new legacy smoked both of them for the Japan car of the year this year. I would take a new Legacy over any offering currently from Toyota or Honda. But if Honda brings their new estate (wagon) accord over with their new AWD system, that would be interesting.

[MDW25gt]

Seems to me this is a matter of opinion, where the Subaru management team is taking the auto company and what the results over time show. I like the idea of 250 hp in a Legacy!

 

I drive a 99 Legacy GT wagon. My third subaru. I delt with the head gasket problem. To solve that problem I started with a new short block, replaced the heads and clutch and put it back together. So far I am pleased with the results. Thanks to Joe's Subaru Repair. The man has the patience and skill to do it right.

 

If I total the original cost of the used purchase, replaced engine, Borla headers, complete Stromung exhaust, BFGoodrich Traction TA's and KYBGR2 struts I am still way below the cost of a new GT. For that money I think the car is better than a lot of more expensive cars on the road.

 

I would not have spent all that money if I did not like the car alot. I like the dependability the way it handles, sounds, looks and runs. I venture to bet that I can hustle it down a twisty road quicker than maybe 80% of the drivers on the road reguardless of what they are driving. If there is snow on the road that number probably goes to 95%.

 

In the end its value for the dollar personal preferance and long term reliability that answers the question of whether Subaru has peaked.

 

Just my opinion,

Mike

[BoondockSVX]

Ford, Chrysler/Dodge, or a minivan from Saturn – Subaru has no completion from these today

 

Completion?

[frag]

Completion?

 

Competition.

[MorganM]

What does Subaru have to offer that seperates itself from the rest of the overcrowded crowd? I'm not seeing it.

 

Here's a few bullet points:

• Symetrical AWD. Not many people know what that means or even care but those who do know why its superior.
  
• 2.5 Turbo boxer engine. Big bore + short stroke + forced induction = lots of torque with lots of HP
  
• LSD's
  
• Driver Operated Center Diff (DOCD)
  
• 6speed
  
• Variable Valve Timing
  
• DOHC
  

I don't know of any Ford you can get all that in one package. However Subaru has the WRX STi and STi Prodrive

[rweddy]

Competition.

Thanks typo! :-p

[nixon]

Has this thread peaked?

[SilverSubie]

Has this thread peaked?

 

Eh probably, so I'll throw in my opinion.

 

I am concerned that Subaru is making a mistake with the Tribeca. I sat in one today at Flatiron Subaru in Boulder (part of the b-9 tour). IMHO, that is a car they should not have built. Syling is OK, the interior is just awful. The interior looks cool, but in incredibly impractical for anyone over 6ft.

 

I am concerned that Subaru is trying to go upmarket (much like VW). There was a really sweet top of the line Legacy at Flatiron, for $31K. I would like to replace my 96 legacy LS with an non-turbo new Legacy, but $24K for that is pretty steep. Yes, I would like AWD, and fresh boxer motor, but that is a pretty big car payment. So I kick it down to an Impreza, which is simply too small.

 

Technology wise, I think there is still room to go. Direct Inject boxer anyone?

[99obw]

And I can tell you of several of 5 of my friends who have 2.5 with over 150k with no issues. I tend to take a statistical approach to this. Subaru’s are all over the place here in Colorado. This is the number one state for Subaru’s. I have talked to lots of private Subaru specialty shops here and they will tell you that it is a very low percentage of 2.5 that have HG issues. There is more than there should be but it is not the epidemic it is made out to be on this forum. Also these issues can be traced back to improper coolant maint. and bleeding procedures.

 

Subaru has redesigned it after years of data to make it better, but it is not the issue that Toyota had with 100% of the v6 3.0 motors of the 90s. Would you want them to sit back and not do anything? I am not saying that there are not 2.5 HG issues, but considering that this is the only small issue with the cars, I will take a small HG repair on a car that is otherwise 100% solid over most if not all other offerings available today.

 

Mitsubishi has one AWD Sedan EVO and that is on line with the STI but not a car for most as a daily driver.

 

Ford, Chrysler/Dodge, or a minivan from Saturn – Subaru has no competition from these today and most Subaru or Japan car buyers would not buy them even if they had an offering because it would be in line with their other models and be POS like they have now. These manufactures cars are sub quality and you get what you pay for.

Yes Toyota and Honda might come up with something but that is in the future, and the new legacy smoked both of them for the Japan car of the year this year. I would take a new Legacy over any offering currently from Toyota or Honda. But if Honda brings their new estate (wagon) accord over with their new AWD system, that would be interesting.

 

I work about ten minutes from the #1 Subaru dealer in the country, so I think we have a few Subarus around here as well. The most common vehicles around here other than the usual Fords and Chevys are Jeeps and Subarus.

 

I live about 10 miles from pulloff, I know four people that own 96-99 outbacks, all four cars have had the gaskets replaced. I think it's a climate issue. We have snow on the ground from November until March or April. We see lows around -20°F and highs around 95°F. I think the thermal cycling here for some reason kills the original gaskets.

 

Oh wait, I just talked to an old college professor a couple of weeks ago, his wife's gaskets were replaced, that makes 5. Now she drives a Toyota.

 

Oh yes, then there's my other friend's wife who has the 2000 outback that leaks coolant like crazy out the left head gasket.

 

Unfortunately Subaru gasket failure in this climate seems to be almost universal.

 

I think if Subaru hasn't thrown away too many customers with their gen 1 and gen 2 outbacks they probably haven't peaked yet.

[Olnick]

What a fascinating thread. And where else would you find it but on USMB, a community of marque lovers who care and think and share?

 

So here's my opinion:

 

"Peaking," like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I happen to believe that Subaru peaked in 1995-96 with the bullet-proof non-interference 2.2. I'm lucky to own one and hope to keep it going for a long, long time.

 

To SOA, however, the peak is most likely somewhere in the future--when they hopefully create an aura around the brand as have BMW or Toyota/Lexus. But at what cost?

 

This is where morals and ethics enter. They are different for individuals and corporations. As a professional, I believe strongly in honesty, integrity and service--I will always go beyond "what is expected" to make sure a client is taken care of. Reputation is just as important as the dollars.

 

Corporations (e.g., SOA and FHI) on the other hand look at revenues, margins and shareholder profits. They hope to create and maintain a decent reputation as they go after their main goal, the dollars.

 

And let's face reality--I'm sure they appreciate our love and loyalty (if they even know we exist!) but we are a mere speck in the gigantic pool of potential customers. Shoot, Joe Average cares more about the color of his new car and the image he projects on the highway in the morning than about the wonderful feel of a well-balanced 4 cylinder boxer engine or the ease of access to the oil filter. Joe just drops his car off at the dealership when something needs to be "fixed!"

 

Which leads to my greatest disappointment with Subaru and SOA--they seem to lack the cojones to own up to certain problems or design failures. It appears they'd rather stick their head in the sand and say "We don't know of any problems with 2.5 liter headgaskets!"

 

What does it all mean? Friends who know I'm a "Subie-junky" have asked my advice on possible purchases and I've told them, with no malice, that personally I wouldn't consider a post-1996 model. If and when I have to look for a newer car I don't know what I'll do. After 20 years of Subaru loyalty that'll be a hard decision.

 

But I'm just one little speck in that big pool Subaru is swimming in.

[Scottbaru]

I think if Subaru hasn't thrown away too many customers with their gen 1 and gen 2 outbacks they probably haven't peaked yet.

A customer of mine has an '03 OBW, leaks coolant, dealer put in gasket sweller. He's considering another Subaru, so I guess they'll keep some customers.

 

A big consideration should be resale value. I was looking for a quattro or 4motion wagon when I found my Legacy. It was about a third the price of a similar quattro or 4motion wagon same year, mileage, condition. I don't think new price was a third of the quattro, so my Subaru didn't hold value as well. Granted this was a great deal, but I spent two months looking aggressively at awd cars all over the country, and this was pretty typical.

[PetterFan]

There seems to be a consensus on this board that Subaru started going down hill with the Phase I engine. Back in 1990, Subaru was leading the industry with full time 4WD in a sedan. Now, even Ford has steped up to that plate. What does Subaru have to offer that seperates itself from the rest of the overcrowded crowd? I'm not seeing it.

Long live the 90' Legacy!

 

Very few other companies, with the exception of Ruf and a few VW's, have used the horizontally opposed boxer engine. This gives the car(s) a much lower center of gravity and greatly improves performance off and on road. As for the four wheel drive, expierence is key. Subaru has been using all-time 4wd since the 70's, and expierence is key when dealing with 4wd limited slip differentials.

[SakoTGrimes]

I think Subaru peaked, then went downhill in 1990 or whenever they stopped offering cars without manual 4WD, manual windows, power steering A/C (dead weight) and all that other fancy junk.

[simbey1982]

Your talking about a multi-national corporation??

 

They dont peak they compete....if others start to catch up (dream on Ford) they will be pushed harder to compete.

 

Who said they have researched this board and found they peaked in 1990...thats crap subaru used pretty much the same stuff from 90-99

 

Saying a company has "peaked" is ridiculous find a better topic

 

and BTW the new 2.5 SOHC's are as reliable as the 2.2's