EA82, 240k, bent valves, replace?

[lebnjay]

So I have a '87 GL wagon with 240k miles on it. Timing belt went out and now I have bent valves. Mechanic wanted $800 to fix, sadly the car isn't really worth that much, nor do I have it. So now the car has been sitting for several months.

I am going to have some extra time this summer, and would love to learn a bit more about fixing cars. Think replacing bent valves, or putting a new engine in would be a manageable task for someone with moderate experience working on cars? I won't kid myself and say that I have a lot of experience, but wouldn't mind taking the time and learning. Biggest problem is lack of money.

I'd love to see that subaru running again, she was an awesome car, all the miles have been in the family.

I welcome any advice you guys have, anything really, from good resources to start learning more, what costs might be, what other options I have. How much does an older subaru engine go for, I would guess the $300-400 range for something used.

Well, again, any help is appreciated.

lebn

[northguy]

For 8 bills, you could buy a new motor from CCR. For 8 bills, you could buy a new beater. You may love your car, but with 240k miles on the clock, it's just not worth putting any serious money into. Part it out and take the proceeds and buy a new ride. my .02

[Flowmastered87GL]

Uhhhh timing belts breaking shouldnt cause bent valves.

 

I think the mechanic is trying to rip you off personally.

 

The Ea82 is a non-interference engine.

 

Ive broke 2 sets in my GL and never had a problem (other than the car wont run til you replace the belts) No damage though.

[85Sub4WD]

Please people, the EA82 motor is not interference, so no bent valves - COMPLETE BS!!!

 

Timing belts are a grand total of ~$50 - do it yourself - it's easy

 

I beg to differ about the whole prob of 240k miles, if the body is decent, save the car, EA82 cars are great, reliable machines (we have owned one for 20+ years) drive it, enjoy it

[Flowmastered87GL]

Oh... and the 240K isnt that bad on the car either...

 

Of the cars in my signature, both the 88 GL's had like over 200K... one had 220K and the other like 240K. Both got resealed and a tune up after blowing a head gasket and ran perfect... one even after having sat for 2 years.

 

Also had an 86 GL with 266K or so... just needed a reseal too.

 

So ya just replace the timing belts and you should be fine.

[lebnjay]

Okay, I'll tell a bit more.

When the timing belt initially broke I had the mechanic look a it. He got a ways into it, said the valves were bent, wanted $800 to do the complete job, had already replaced the timing belt. I told him I couldn't put that kind of money into it, he put things back together and it limped home, but just barely, it was the worst i have ever seen a car run. Now, it hasn't moved since it got home.

Would the mechanic lie about the valves being bent? What would be in it for him? Especially since he knew that I was not going to put more money into the car than it was worth.

It was a while ago, but I though he even told me it was an interference engine.

Of course I believe you guys over him though.

This is exactly why I would like to learn more about working on my car, so I can stop being yanked around by mechanics quite so much.

thanks for the posts so far

lebn

[lebnjay]

By the way, this is my first time here and you guys are amazingly fast. I had no idea this was such an awesome board, I imagine I have quite a bit to learn from here.

lebn

[85Sub4WD]

Would the mechanic lie about the valves being bent? What would be in it for him? Especially since he knew that I was not going to put more money into the car than it was worth.

It was a while ago, but I though he even told me it was an interference engine.

Of course I believe you guys over him though.

This is exactly why I would like to learn more about working on my car, so I can stop being yanked around by mechanics quite so much.

thanks for the posts so far

lebn

 

yes, he would lie about the timing belt, or he was an idiot and did not look it up - all subarus pre-2.5L legacy (EJ25? - mid-90's) were non-interference

 

bent valve stories are very common tales heard on the board - (I guess many don't complain b/c they pick up cars for $100 with "bent valves")

 

as to the problems, he probably installed the timing belts incorrectly (common mistake by newbies to EA82 engines) and that is why it ran like poo - I think there is info on timing belt changes in the repair manual section of this webpage

 

it is a 3h job if it is your first time - less than half if you have done one before

[lebnjay]

Now that I think about it, he did offer to buy the subaru from me for something like $100. Wow, wish I knew a decent mechanic around here (just moved here).

 

As far as just the timing belts being installed incorrectly, could that make a car run as bad as mine did? Let's see, felt like I was running on one cylinder, it would jump around like crazy, had to keep my foot on the accelerator just about constantly to keep the revs up or it would die, had a max speed of about 20mph, extremely loud. Basically non-drivable, it literally would stop traffic it was so ridiculous.

damn, if it was just fixing the timing belts that would be awesome.

but he did take everything apart to see what the problem was, or at least he said he did.

lebn

[85Sub4WD]

Now that I think about it, he did offer to buy the subaru from me for something like $100. Wow, wish I knew a decent mechanic around here (just moved here).

 

As far as just the timing belts being installed incorrectly, could that make a car run as bad as mine did? Let's see, felt like I was running on one cylinder, it would jump around like crazy, had to keep my foot on the accelerator just about constantly to keep the revs up or it would die, had a max speed of about 20mph, extremely loud. Basically non-drivable, it literally would stop traffic it was so ridiculous.

damn, if it was just fixing the timing belts that would be awesome.

but he did take everything apart to see what the problem was, or at least he said he did.

lebn

you are dealing with a con artist or something like that - that kind of person makes me angry - yes installing the timing belts wrong would definately make it behave like that (or worse - it may not start at all) - the symptoms you describe are TEXTBOOK signs of a bad installation - he probably did not rotate (yes, it is part of the proceedure) it during the installation, and one of the cams is WAYY off as a result

 

he did not dig into it - he pulled the T-belt covers off, saw the broken belt, and made the rest up - if he had pulled the engine apart, he would have seen the valves in fine condition, and not told you they were bent - he would have also charged you for a head gasket, and associated components

 

if you do replace your t-belt - note that there are two of them, one for the driver's side, one for the passenger side - both should be replaced at the same time

 

I have had to deal with similar kinds of crap around here - that is why I am the only person who services my car - the dealership even caught it on fire once by pouring oil down the preheat tube!! - (if your car is FI, it does not have one)

[Snowman]

Never, ever, go back to that "mechanic". Unless the valves were bent BEFORE the T-belt broke, they are not bent. As has been said, getting the timing off by even one tooth will make it run horrendously bad. If it's 180 out on one of the cams (the most likely case), I am amazed that it runs at all.

 

Get yourself a set of new SOA belts, install them yourself, and your car will be good as new.

[richierich]

I don't think he is dealing with a con-artist. The mechanic tried to install T-belts, got one off a notch, started it up, ran rough, wouldn't idle or accelerate properly and figured it was a bent valve rather than re-checking his work. Hey I get about 1/20 of the EA82 Belts off a notch, and I have been doing them for 11 years. I always tighten the tensioners and then rotate the belts once and then re-check them. I got a Legacy belt off the other day, and you can't do that unless you are an idiot. :-\

 

 

So here is what you do. Take the passenger side fan out (10 mm) . Then remove the outer timing belt covers that go over the cams.(10mm socket) Use a 22mm(?)(I forget, it is the worn one in my tool box) socket to turn the crank bolt, look in the access hole of the motor (have to remove the spare tire to see it,) there will be a notch to line up the crank. Turn the crank until you see 3 thin lines on the flywheel (5speed) or flexplate (automatic), and line up the middle one with the notch. Then take a look at the cam gears. One small ( o ) circle on the faces of the gear should be pointed up, and one should be pointed down. If you have a hard time see if it is correct, turn the motor over 180deg and look again. If one is off, I would put the fan back in, and take it down to the mechanic and have him fix it for free. (if you paid for it the first time). Good Luck and let us know.

 

And I am glad that 85Sub4WD in his infiante wisdom at 19, (and 703 posts) knows more than all the Subaru mechanics at the dealership.

[Snowman]

I don't think he is dealing with a con-artist. The mechanic tried to install T-belts, got one off a notch, started it up, ran rough, wouldn't idle or accelerate properly and figured it was a bent valve rather than re-checking his work. Hey I get about 1/20 of the EA82 Belts off a notch, and I have been doing them for 11 years. I always tighten the tensioners and then rotate the belts once and then re-check them. I got a Legacy belt off the other day, and you can't do that unless you are an idiot. :-\

 

 

So here is what you do. Take the passenger side fan out (10 mm) . Then remove the outer timing belt covers that go over the cams.(10mm socket) Use a 22mm(?)(I forget, it is the worn one in my tool box) socket to turn the crank bolt, look in the access hole of the motor (have to remove the spare tire to see it,) there will be a notch to line up the crank. Turn the crank until you see 3 thin lines, and line up the middle one with the notch. Then take a look at the cam gears. One small ( o ) circle on the faces of the gear should be pointed up, and one should be pointed down. If you have a hard time see if it is correct, turn the motor over 180deg and look again. If one is off, I would put the fan back in, and take it down to the mechanic and have him fix it for free. (if you paid for it the first time). Good Luck and let us know.

 

Yeah, it's 22mm. 7/8 is a suitable substitute as well.

[richierich]

Thats right, mine is a 7/8th.

[lebnjay]

Wow, thanks for more helpful posts.

Richierich, I will give what you suggested a try and see what I come up with.

It would be awesome if this was all is wrong with my car.

 

Man, I can't wait till the 28th of this month, thesis is due... then I am free.

Right now I feel more like I am just banging my head against a wall, and have almost no free time (yet I manage to slack off by coming here).

Hopefully I can get my car running by the time I am free to leave this place so I can escape.

 

Thanks again guys. If anyone has any more to add to what others have said I would love to hear it.

 

lebn

[Snowman]

Wow, thanks for more helpful posts.

Richierich, I will give what you suggested a try and see what I come up with.

It would be awesome if this was all is wrong with my car.

 

Man, I can't wait till the 28th of this month, thesis is due... then I am free.

Right now I feel more like I am just banging my head against a wall, and have almost no free time (yet I manage to slack off by coming here).

Hopefully I can get my car running by the time I am free to leave this place so I can escape.

 

Thanks again guys. If anyone has any more to add to what others have said I would love to hear it.

 

lebn

 

I can relate to that. My school is finished up until fall on the 30th, and I feel like all I'm doing now is waiting for that day to come....

[555Ron]

Yeah, i'd agree with the timing belt/not bent valves. I mechanic i knew bought a Subaru over 10 years ago very cheap because it was running like ************. He was going to drop a new engine into only to find he had a perfectly good engine, just the timing belt was installed correctly (1 tooth out, and it ran absolutely horribly)... cheap car and a cheap fix. And i believe this was done by a factory mechanic. It can happen...

 

But to me, i reckon this mechanic is a con. I wouldn't recommend taking it back to him to get him to fix up his messy work... who knows what he will do, in my experience, mechanics like to cover up their errors rather then fix them

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/article.php?a=24

 

Here is an article by MilesFox who is a member here on how to go about it. You can do it in the car... just take the radiator out and you'll have plenty off room. (An AC compressor will make it a little harder). I would recommend you keep reading this article over and over, go out to your car and think about how you are going to do it. Find the fly wheel marks (put some gloves on your hand if you are going to turn the engine by the crank pulley belt, don't ask how i know...) and keep reading until you are reasonably confident. You've got nothing to lose and you don't have bent valves, many times i've read these things are non interference engines. Anyway, i'm about to do my timing belts in a week or so, i've got a digital camera to make sure it all goes back together how it came apart... other then that, i'll just go by that article and the workshop manual (which you won't need if you read that article..)

[karinvail]

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/article.php?a=24

 

Here is an article by MilesFox who is a member here on how to go about it.

 

Wow that is a great explanation of how to do the timing belts! I think I could tackle them even if I need to in the future!

 

I notice the page talks about tensioning the belts - when does a person know that needs to be done? I have no clue when my belts were last done on this engine, but my luck it was 59,999 miles ago

[NorthWet]

...I have no clue when my belts were last done on this engine, but my luck it was 59,999 miles ago

Remember when the engine was not in the donor car and not yet in your car??? That would have been the perfect time to make sure you knew when the t-belts were last changed.

 

Live and learn. T-belts are not that hard to replace, especially if car is sitting outside of the car. They are a real pain on the side of the freeway. (Guess how I know?!)

[Nug]

By the way, this is my first time here and you guys are amazingly fast. I had no idea this was such an awesome board, I imagine I have quite a bit to learn from here.

lebn

 

We are all supposed to be working, but posting here instead.

[karinvail]

Remember when the engine was not in the donor car and not yet in your car??? That would have been the perfect time to make sure you knew when the t-belts were last changed.

 

Live and learn. T-belts are not that hard to replace, especially if car is sitting outside of the car. They are a real pain on the side of the freeway. (Guess how I know?!)

 

Ya, I remember It was a ''Git-R-Done'' situation though - probably should have thought ahead and done it, but I just wanted a running car!

 

I know how it feels to have a belt break on the side of the freeway - and almost $300 to have the dealer replace them (that happened on my '85 Turbo sedan 15 years or so ago when it had JUST turned 60,000 miles too and we'd had it only 2-3 weeks!)

[breaffyaviation]

Your "mechanic "had no idea what he was doing. You can NOT bend valves on an 82. Fixing your problem is something any of us can walk you thro. I screwed up mine first time but I do not claim to be a proffessional mechanic. Beware of chancers.The only time you should ever approach a dealership is to check the backlot for abandoned subies.

Jude

[lebnjay]

Wow, you guys were totally right. Instead of working on my thesis today I pulled the radiator and the timing belt covers. Lined up the lines on the flywheel and guess what, the little circle marks on the cam gears were both pointing down. Rotated everything 180 and yep, both pointing up with the lines lined up.

So now I know that the mechanic lied to me. Either he was just lazy and lied to me, or he was trying to con me out of some extra cash and lied.

He basically took $300 of mine for a failed timing belt install.

I now figure he either could have accidently installed the timing belt wrong, saw it ran like crap, assumed it was an interference engine, assumed the valves were bent, then lied to me about how he had already taken it all apart to see that valves were bent. After I didn't give him $800 to fix the bend valves he asked for $300 to put everything back together and said that it might limp home on a couple cylinders.

I was dumb, didn't know any better, and said sure whatever.

I guess another option is that he was just trying to scam me out of whatever he could get, and after I didn't pay to fix the bent valves, he installed the timing belt wrong so it would run like crap to match his story. Then offered to buy it off me for a hundred or so.

I hope it was the first and he was just lazy and a bit of an as$hole.

 

Not really sure where I am going from here...

After looking today I think I may not have a receipt from this guy, at the time I thought my subaru was finally dead and I guess either I did not get one, or did not glove box it like I do with all my other car receipts.

At this point I am kind of excited to do the timing belt fix so I know how to do it in the future, and enjoy working on the car, I also have no way to get the car down to this mechanic's shop, not that I want him working on my car again anyways.

I will probably go down there and confront him about this on Monday when they are open and see what he says. It would be sweet to get my money back, but I don't hold much hope.

Don't think I stand on very firm ground without a receipt, especially cause it was almost a year ago, wonder what he will say.

This especially sucks because not only am I out of $300 but this means I could have had a running car this last year, not a nice looking subaru slowly collecting dust.

If I don't get any resolution from talking to him I suppose I could try going through the Better Business Bureau.

What do you guys think would be the best course of action, or best way to approach the situation?

 

Thank you so much for all your help, I am so excited to get this car running again and to start doing as much of the maintenance myself as I can. After reading a bunch of articles and threads on this site I am getting much more confidant with my ability to learn to work on this subaru myself.

 

lebnjay

[85Sub4WD]

Glad to hear you found out the problem!!

 

In all honesty, as this took place a year ago, and you do not have the recipt, I would at the very least find the recipt before confronting him, and/or fix the car and drive it over to the shop (you can do a timing belt - I did one my sophmore year in high school - nearly put it on 180 degrees (or Pi radians ) off too!!). - That way when you walk in the door, you have something behind you to make your statements stick.

 

Beyond that, I do not know what to suggest, there is probably some sort of statue of limitations from the legal side of the matter, and beyond that I do not know. Much of it depends on how he handles your complaint. I have had to confront mechanics before about their mistakes, but usually they were very reasonable, so I did not have to go any further - just stay calm.

 

I would you suggest you get a copy of the Factory Service Manual for your car if you intend to start doing service yourself - they can be had off ebay at a reasonable cost (I got mine for $40 off ebay - yours may be more or less) just keep checking it! - It is BEST reference for your car, and it is a WONDERFUL tool - it is what the dealerships use, and it is written pretty clearly (as in most anybody can use/understand it if they know the basic facts about their car)

 

here is a site that has PART of the FSM for a 1989 car - it is under EA82

 

http://www.finleyweb.net/default.asp?id=142

 

Good Luck!!!

[555Ron]

here is a site that has PART of the FSM for a 1989 car - it is under EA82

 

http://www.finleyweb.net/default.asp?id=142

 

Good Luck!!!

Awesome, awesome, awesome site. Thankyou so very much for that. I just had a quick browse and printed off about 50 pages. (no ink left now:cool:) Excellent diagrams... a picture is worth a thousand words. Thankyou so much for that link, i so want that book now:D