Scott in Bellingham Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 . the hub idea is pretty cool in person, he did not use just the outers though...he used the knuckles with welded mounts to the subie swingarm.....which not all can do easily like scott did. ........ you bring me the parts and Ill do one for you , it works well, the stock nissan diff is welded up , I just unlock the hubs for road use, lock them in for offroad, I still would like to find some 3.9 gears, I know they are out there just not sure where to find, Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idasho Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 That looks like the solution Scott! A simple swing arm modification to accept a bolt-on hub/knuckle to make it work. You cannot please this crowd though. They want a drop in locking rear diff, but dont want to pay for it. And they dont want a welded diff with locking hubs, cause they think it is too much work, and dont want to pay for it. If I had a dedicated off-road Subaru I would go the welded rear diff + locking hubs in a heartbeat. Currently looking at possible candidates. Nothing worth looking at yet. And the daily driver GL I have is way to clean to subject to the rigors of off-road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch de la Brat Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Just a thought. Has anyone thought about modifying the inner axle stub, that is located on the hub? I haven't pulled one apart, ever, but if it's hollow, as it seems to be, if someone were to cut that off, set up some bearings to ride inside that and insert another shaft inside that. Then figure out a pin setup that won't shear under the strain of offroading. Such as a grade 8 bolt, or something. This could also apply to a diff stub, as I know may offroaders know how to unbolt and bolt on a new stub shaft in a few minutes, if that. You could eliminate the pin requirement and just swap stub shafts when you get to the offroad area. Now I'm not saying this is the end all be all of solutions. It will obviously require a lathe, spare metal, a spare hub and time and skill by the builder. I would say I've tried this, or I'm going to try this, but right now, even though I have the time, I don't have the means or the resources nor the skills to do this. I'm just trying to throw out fresh ideas for those with resources and skills to attempt if they wish. I will be attempting this as soon as I weld my diff and have the resources to try it. Twitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 That looks like the solution Scott! A simple swing arm modification to accept a bolt-on hub/knuckle to make it work. You cannot please this crowd though. They want a drop in locking rear diff, but dont want to pay for it. And they dont want a welded diff with locking hubs, cause they think it is too much work, and dont want to pay for it. If I had a dedicated off-road Subaru I would go the welded rear diff + locking hubs in a heartbeat. Currently looking at possible candidates. Nothing worth looking at yet. And the daily driver GL I have is way to clean to subject to the rigors of off-road. I am going to put this to you real simple and easy to understand. Come in here stirring the pot with no other reason and I will personally delete your posts... every time! Last warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstaru Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Just a thought.Has anyone thought about modifying the inner axle stub, that is located on the hub? I haven't pulled one apart, ever, but if it's hollow, as it seems to be, if someone were to cut that off, set up some bearings to ride inside that and insert another shaft inside that. Then figure out a pin setup that won't shear under the strain of offroading. Such as a grade 8 bolt, or something. This could also apply to a diff stub, as I know may offroaders know how to unbolt and bolt on a new stub shaft in a few minutes, if that. You could eliminate the pin requirement and just swap stub shafts when you get to the offroad area. Now I'm not saying this is the end all be all of solutions. It will obviously require a lathe, spare metal, a spare hub and time and skill by the builder. I would say I've tried this, or I'm going to try this, but right now, even though I have the time, I don't have the means or the resources nor the skills to do this. I'm just trying to throw out fresh ideas for those with resources and skills to attempt if they wish. I will be attempting this as soon as I weld my diff and have the resources to try it. Twitch Twitchthe main point is that the as pieces get smaller, they get a bit more weak due to mass. realism states that one moves on. yes, people here generally want a bolt, or drop in solution.JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER AFTERMARKET. the sad truth is that most folks think things like this are so easy.i invite them to put there money where there mouth is. Scott, i could probably pull of what you have (thanks though).however, i just don't care.these cars are what they are.i have movedd on with my deepest desires. they lay in a buggy form with subaru motors, and solid axles. i can't drive one of these and not break it for some reason. just like those hippie stickers state"farther".....thats where i want to be. anyone and there mom can talk ************.i do it well, and with past experience, thats all:grin:......cheers, b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstaru Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 While the axle joint is a good idea. It would have to be improved to make it work off road. The stresses offroad are far greater than on road. Iwould have blown it to pieces. EGGZACHARY..........hence the thoughts of something different in my mind for that particular idear......more of a u joint style axle, with thick rump roast shafts.....but anyways.....cheers, b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 While the axle joint is a good idea. It would have to be improved to make it work off road. The stresses offroad are far greater than on road. Iwould have blown it to pieces. The axle-locks are built to go on FWD cars, where 100% of the torque is going through that axle. If it can stand up to a 3.8l v6 in a buick, it should stand up to whatever a subaru can put through it in the rear. Plus, the diff stubs are much more likely to snap than any other component back there. I think it's a real option, and shouldn't be dismissed. I don't have a wheeling wagon anymore, so I won't be persuing it. People splice axles all the time when they swap powertrain packages into cars that didn't come with them. Sleeving the cut stubs of the axles and welding them in seems to work fine. The cv joints are the weak point, not the axle shaft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 The axle-locks are built to go on FWD cars, where 100% of the torque is going through that axle. If it can stand up to a 3.8l v6 in a buick, it should stand up to whatever a subaru can put through it in the rear. Plus, the diff stubs are much more likely to snap than any other component back there. I think it's a real option, and shouldn't be dismissed. I don't have a wheeling wagon anymore, so I won't be persuing it. People splice axles all the time when they swap powertrain packages into cars that didn't come with them. Sleeving the cut stubs of the axles and welding them in seems to work fine. The cv joints are the weak point, not the axle shaft. While I do not totally disagree with you. I think it may be a mute point. When it comes to building an offroad rig either you build something capable or you do it on the cheap and repair what breaks. Axles are cheap. They are easy to remove/install in a lifted rig. I pushed mine as far or further than just about anyone here. It still wasn't enough. I used a solid axle and other things began to break. They are capable little rigs and can keep up with most stock rigs on the trail. But, that is just what they are. They are not rock crawlers. Nor will they ever be. No clearance with out a complete sub-frame. No gears without modifying other components to handle the increased strain. And, they still wont follow a stock toyota truck with a lock-rite in the rear. Before any of you "new" people decide to chime in remember. or learn, this... the Hatch Patrol went where no one else went with these. BYB admitted we took it further than they ever could have. So, when we speak about the capability of a Subaru, we are doing so from an experienced position. Trust me when we say we have thought of practically every possible mod you could do. And even a few that could not be done. Don't stop trying to keep up. But, don't get your feelings hurt when you can't. We don't get upset when we can't follow rock buggies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obk25xt Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 ^^^ very good post. I may be one of the "new guys" and have done much searching before attempting anything "new". This post pretty much sums it up. No point in reinventing the wheel. Carry spares. Like it or lump it. Ha. In all seriousness though. I have what I consider to be a very well built subie wheeler. I built it myself (with help of course) and know its capabilities as well. While I *might-maybe* be able to sell it for what I've got into it, I couldn't sell it for enough to build another one (if that makes any sense). That said, I WOULD sell it or trade it for the right straight axle toyota. Most of the guys I would go offroading with have them and while I can mostly keep up, they are two totally different animals and at this point I think I would rather have a toy. Preferrably extended cab if you've got one haha... Un-locker related ramble over.....and out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idasho Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 The axle-locks are built to go on FWD cars, where 100% of the torque is going through that axle. If it can stand up to a 3.8l v6 in a buick, it should stand up to whatever a subaru can put through it in the rear. It is certainly an option. But I see it as just another failure point. Name of the game for off road rigs is off road ability, all while maintaining reliability when pushed. For most the easiest way to obtain this is to keep it simple. Adding another piece to the puzzle, especially one in the drive-line is quite the gamble. Also, as Qman stated, the stresses offroad are far greater than on road. This isnt just a simple matter of torque. Off road during nasty stuff the driveline gets shocked by on-off traction situations. This multiplies the applied torque, and is called a shock load. The benefit I see from a locker isnt related to rocks. A locked rear will aid in overcoming obstacles slower. More control and less breakage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott in Bellingham Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 some things to remember when building and driving a OffRoader Subaru 1) keep it light (Ive seen some pretty overloaded cars in the woods, take the ecentuals but dont overdo it with the heavy stuff, remember its just a 2500 Lb. car, its not a truck) 2) keep the tires small ( there is no low gears. , and the taller the tire the more stress it has on that little rear axle and hollow diff stub shaft, when the rearends welded up) 3) only go as fast as needed to clear an obsticle 4) dont slip the clutch ( lug it, kill it, or spin a tire) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) Before any of you "new" people decide to chime in remember. or learn, this... the Hatch Patrol went where no one else went with these. BYB admitted we took it further than they ever could have. So, when we speak about the capability of a Subaru, we are doing so from an experienced position. Trust me when we say we have thought of practically every possible mod you could do. And even a few that could not be done. Don't stop trying to keep up. But, don't get your feelings hurt when you can't. We don't get upset when we can't follow rock buggies. I'm one of the few east coasters that owned a lifted wagon. My wagon built it's own reputation around here, no one knew about the BYB's or the Hatch Patrol, there was no subaru crew to keep up with. Just me, the crazy bastard with the lifted station wagon using it to commute on the weekdays, kick rump roast on the trails on the weekends, and haul anything out that needed a tow. No one talked trash about the wagon because I was the only one who would come out into the middle of nowhere and pull their broken junk out. I know just as well as any of you how far you can push a subaru. I swapped axles, wheel bearings, differentials, transmissions, engines, everything. I have a huge hoard of parts because you can't find EA82's on the road or in the junkyards here. If I shredded a trans on saturday, i had a spare in it by sunday night so I could drive to work monday morning. I put so much stress on the strut rod mounting points that the firewall tore away from the transmission tunnel and we had to pound it back down and reinforce it. It got wheeled hard, and got me to school and the dealership reliably. If you know how to drive, you can make these econoboxes do amazing things. It has nothing to do with keeping up with rock buggies, it's about getting a station wagon someplace it would never be expected, winching out a stuck/broken truck, and getting back out of there. My wagon excelled offroad in many places my Tacoma doesn't have a chance. Deep mud or snow for example. The light weight, good weight distribution, and flat bottom make for a potent combo in those conditions. The tacoma is so nose heavy it sinks like a stone. The turning radius also sucks, so the subaru could literally run circles around it. I take offense at the attitude that the Hatch Patrol had been there, done that, and has the final word on what works on subarus. There is still room for innovation, which SJR's wild projects prove. If I was still running the wagon (I lost the battle with rust and unibody fatigue) I'd think it worth it to try adapting an axle lock. $750 for something that makes locking in a welded rear diff as easy as locking the hubs on a 4x4 truck would be worth it. Especially as I used the car as a commuter, and needed it to be completely streetable 6 days a week. The convenience of giving a locking coupler a quick twist when out of the woods vs jacking the car up, punching out roll pins, and removing the axle every time would be worth it. The benefit I see from a locker isnt related to rocks. A locked rear will aid in overcoming obstacles slower. More control and less breakage. Subarus can't do slower. The available differential gearing and lack of a real low range limit what you can do, especially since the motors can't produce enough torque to make up for it. Something a truck with appropriate gearing could walk up, a subaru has to hit it harder and faster so you don't power out on the climb. By the time you're swapping transfer cases in to compensate for that, you might as well have gone and gotten a Samurai. Edited March 23, 2011 by WoodsWagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 we were talking to a locker manufacturer here in australia, probably based in america though he would be happy to set the tooling up to make them that was not a problem, but we needed to sell 500 before he started and price would be atleast 1000$aus each I'm sure I've spoken to the same guy as well - got the same response. I'd love to win some money from the lottery to get this happening... Just need to win the lottery as this will be the only way I personally could get this moving. I have contacted some diff locker manufacturers with the following responses: ARB flat out said it can't be done the first time around. Last time I emailed them they said the diff would not be able to with stand such forces. I have emailed them back about the auto unlocker I know of and have not recieved a reply as of yet... TJM are starting up a manual locker production. I've emailed them as well. Their response was a long the lines of "we're focusing on the well known brands and models used in offroading, once we have sucessfully established this we may look into the R160 diff design" or something of the like. So at the very least if it does happen with this mob it will be a few years at the least before something is available. I have also contacted some chinese diff locker producers that I found on google. I don't know how legit they are or what not, but I've not had a response from any of them. They could be learing english but who knows... Why spend the time on a selectable locker when swapping out a rear halfshaft takes maybe 20-30 minutes and is free, the welding of the spider gears is usually the cost of a 12 pack for your friend with a welder. Most people here that have been around the block a time or two do one of three things. Leave it open, its free Weld it, up to 25 bucks if you have to bribe a friend with beer Buy a Toyota 1) been there done that, back with this setup now for snow travel in winter 2) did this mod and it was the best offroad mod I've done to my subi - "point and shoot" was the motto with a welded rear. Got my subi into places it shouldn't have without lift or larger tyres! More on why I want a manual locker later in this thread. 3) Not an option. Love my subi and love showing others what my modified subaru can do in the scrub. All these reasons why they dont exist. Yet this thread keeps on going.... Because those of us who are truly after one are hoping that someone/something/this group and discussion result in a suitable manual locking rear setup for our subi's. i have movedd on with my deepest desires. they lay in a buggy form with subaru motors, and solid axles.i can't drive one of these and not break it for some reason. B, maybe you kept breaking your subi because you asked way too much of it OR you didn't know how to drive your subi in rough terrain while also preserving the mechanical health of your vehicle. Why do I want a manual diff locker?? I'm building my subi for a purpose. A hard core offroader - not rock crawler (even the big rigs can't do this unless its very heavily modifed to comp truck level IMO) - that is also a great tourer and daily driver. What I have now is EJ22 stock L series gearbox, 3.7 ratio diffs and 27 inch tyres. That is a great setup for a subi, an LSD even better, but I'm going one further - the gearbox is going to be swapped out for one of the dual range L series AWD centre diff locking gearbox with 4.11 ratio diffs. THIS is the reason why I want the manual diff locker. A welded diff and removing a drive shaft with AWD will not work for me, nor would the same setup with a free wheeling hub or the like. An auto unlocker isn't great in the rear or front for that matter (not that there are front units out there) with AWD - a friend of mine has an auto unlocker in an r160 diff housing of his subaru MY, it goes amazingly well! I've been mentally designing a locker in my head at work when I can, then physically looking at an R160 diff to see if it could possibly work, when it doesn't its back to the drawing board, fun fun. I might get there one day but like many others I don't have the skills or knowledge to machine parts, let alone the hardware to do it... This is my subi, I'm rather proud of where its been (literally) and where its at in its build that continues. The outback was a good comparison: If a welded diff can take the forces of locked offroading - I'm sure a manual locker could do the same with the same strength. Just need to nut out a mechanism that locks the spider gears. A mate of mine said it would be easy to do with some time, a little bit of money (initially) and the right equipment. Basically the go would be to buy a readily available off the shelf diff locker and "map" with CRC techniques (I think its CRC) then down size all the components to a size that will fit in the R160 rear diff. Next step would be to find suitable manufacturers of the components and then assemble and sell. I'm also after a manual locker for the later model subarus to be able to use as well as the older subarus too - the R160 diff has not changed a great deal from the early 80's MYs through till now. The datsun racing fraternity could also be interested in a device such as this. I live in hope and want to work towards something that will hopefully one day end up in the back of my (and other's) subi's. I have little time for those who just stamp this idea with the "get a toyota"/"put your money where your mouth is"... Cheers Bennie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 ... and where can I find out about the BYB and/or hatch patrol? Cheers Bennie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 91 Loyale, You were about 5+ yrs after the first lifted BRAT on the east coast. Which I believe had the first BYB kit. I believe Mike had the 2nd one. Your Tacoma doesn't count as an out of the box wheeler. Sorry, just doesn't. While capable, you already described it's faults. Having spares is what it is all about with these little "cars". I still have spares that I will never use. One day I will let them go to someone who'll need them. As far as taking offense, good, let it motivate you. Out do us. I love seeing the new people coming up with ideas. Go out and promote our brand. Prove to the world, again, that you deserve to be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 ... B, maybe you kept breaking your subi because you asked way too much of it OR you didn't know how to drive your subi in rough terrain while also preserving the mechanical health of your vehicle... Cheers Bennie Bennie, I have wheeled with Brian. He does just fine. But yes, he does ask a lot of his rig. We all do here. We have some of the harshest terrain and widest variety of terrain you will find anywhere. Desert, mountain, swamp, snow, mud are obsticales we find in an average day not differring seasons. But, as you noted, we that no lopnger wheel Subarus have moved to the next level and beyond. The Subarus can't do it. When you add solid axles, transfer cases and different motors you are also leaving the normal Subaru. Soon you will find the limits yourself. Well, if you are driven to more difficult terrain and obstacles anyway. And, the BYB can be found here, message board, http://ausubaru.com/ www.hatchpatrol.com Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) 91 Loyale, You were about 5+ yrs after the first lifted BRAT on the east coast. Which I believe had the first BYB kit. I believe Mike had the 2nd one. Your Tacoma doesn't count as an out of the box wheeler. Sorry, just doesn't. While capable, you already described it's faults. That's nice, I said I was "one of the few east coasters that owned a lifted wagon", not the only one to own a lifted subaru, ever. Going back through my posts, seems I lifted my wagon May of 05 with the lift I bought from PK. Put it through 4 years of hell before retiring it. I switched to a Toyota truck, which is not nearly as good in the woods as the subaru was. I don't even take this thing wheeling because it leads to getting really stuck, or dents in the body because I'm backing and filling in the trees to try and make it around a corner. Big downgrade from the subaru that I had in the woods all the time. So, my point, as rambling as it may be, Is that there's no reason to not look into new alternatives for improving the lifted subaru. They can be capable cars and work very well in varying terrain while being a heck of a lot of fun. They're not just a stepping stone to a rock buggy, if you can be content that you aren't going to make it everywhere. Buy a skidder if you need that. People being dismissive of ideas to improve them because "it doesn't fit the formula" is what pisses me off. Go out and try something, don't stand around and harp "it'll never work, no one would pay for that, they don't make one exactly for our application, don't bother modifying anything else to fit" pile of bulldung. Edited March 24, 2011 by WoodsWagon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstaru Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 B, maybe you kept breaking your subi because you asked way too much of it OR you didn't know how to drive your subi in rough terrain while also preserving the mechanical health of your vehicle yep, evidently i have high expectations of everything i do.well, mostly anyway. don't get me wrong, i LOVE these cars.but i know there limits for me.i am not a bad driver....but, i have also had nicknames like WFO(wide ************in open) and UMM(ultra mad man) my entire life...because thats how i live it........:)and when it is time to move on, it is time to move on... years ago i was trying to build a super badass offroad rig out of one of these cars....broke some stuff, bent the ************ out of some other stuff, and decided it was time to move on. now i build them for the kind of wheeling i can afford to do now....which is pretty impressive from these little rigs.but i do not push them past their limits TOOOOO much........:grin:well, kinda, but whatever.i know what to expect now... cheers, b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch de la Brat Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 now i build them for the kind of wheeling i can afford to do now....which is pretty impressive from these little rigs.but i do not push them past their limits TOOOOO much........:grin:well, kinda, but whatever.i know what to expect now...cheers, b ^^^^ Twitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 now i build them for the kind of wheeling i can afford to do now....which is pretty impressive from these little rigs.but i do not push them past their limits TOOOOO much........:grin:well, kinda, but whatever.i know what to expect now... cheers, b That's the right attitude for wheeling with these things. It's not a hardcore offroad rig, but damn if they don't go some interesting places for a econobox car. 25mpg on the street, and if you had a bad day at work, give it hell in the woods on the way home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstaru Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 That's the right attitude for wheeling with these things. It's not a hardcore offroad rig, but damn if they don't go some interesting places for a econobox car. 25mpg on the street, and if you had a bad day at work, give it hell in the woods on the way home. eggzachary.......you have to know your limits... i keep tryin to tell people to know their limits and they keep taking it wrong...like i'm telling them to NOT push it.... which is not the truth at all..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roostema4328 Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 My idea for this which I havent done yet but know I could and may do someday. Is too use a rear diff from a ford explorer or expedition with independent rear suspension. I would install a locker in that and install in the place of the stock diff. Probably could find tons of them in the scrap yard. they are 8.8" same ford has used for years. I am sure I could find a way to bolt/shorten the driveshaft to fit the pinion flange. cut the cvs on the ford unit and the ones in the car. Weld together and blammo. I know this could be done and I could do it. very time consuming though. lol I still need to build my engine first and I am poor these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 The problem with posts of this type is definition. People's definition of wheeling is quite different. Knowing limits and the type of wheeling make it easier to express one's opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spazomatic Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 okay, I've decided. I am gonna weld the rear diff in my 84GL. I only occasionally drive it anyways, and I love goin up trails that it shouldn't be able to do. so....until I can figure out how to fab a lockout mechanism at the hubs, she's gettin fully locked. handling quirks I can live with:) for the sake of astonishing jeep guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyfun Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Rather than trying to figure out how to make a locker or fab another kind of rearend on, perhaps we should look further into installing locking hubs on the rear wheels so we can just weld the diff. We'd probably see an increase in fuel economy when running in FWD mode cause the rear CVs and propshaft wouldn't be spinning. Might just be a matter of fabbing front hubs from a Toyota truck on, or maybe even swap the entire Toyota IFS over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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