Why TOD won't go away??!? Fixed

[subynut]

My sister's roo started the TOD the other day, so I did an oil change (castrol 10-w40, stp filter) with some SeaFoam in there and it made no difference. I also noticed that the oil pressure was rather low: about halfway between 0 and the 45 with a cold engine at 3000RPM and air temp around 55. At idle the pressure is 0, doesn't start climbing till about 2000RPM. The lifters are screamin' at me. Well, more like ticking at me, but you know what I mean. So, suspecting the oil pump needed a reseal, I resealed it and it made no difference what so ever. Ticking is the same as well as the oil pressure.

When I resealed the pump, I noticed alot of caked on oil in the pump itself and the seals were rather hard.

I do know the car was overheated a minimum of twice, it leaks oil everyware, and it's not blowing any smoke whatsoever. Power is ok, not great, but it'll get to 80 without too much work. It's got just under 140k miles.

Here's my question:

Does it sound like there is somthing wrong with the oil system internally? I think it just needs a reseal, but if there's any machine work, I'm outa luck cause there's no shops around here that'll work on them.

Is there anything I could put in the crankcase that would loosen up that oil mess and free up the oil passages?

At this point, it's looking like an engine swap because it would be the quickest way to get her on the road again.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

[Turbone]

It most likely needs the oil pump resealed. Alot cheaper than replacing the engine.

(edit) Oops, I missed that sentence. Might try some tranny fluid, let it run for a 100mi or so, then change the oil again.

[pyromanic]

Are you absolutely sure it's TOD? If you are positive, then feel free to ignore what follows. If not:

 

The other causes of ticking/clicking sounds may be rarer than lifter noise, but it happens. One example is when the center main bearing begins to fail somewhow. That bearing is flanged, and acts like a thrust bearing. Then the crank gets to slipping endways, back and forth. To check for this stick a big prybar in the timing hole and pry on the flywheel, see if the crank pully moves.

 

Now I'm not saying thats your problem, just suggesting theres no one size fits all to diagostics. Sometimes people forget that. And us guys sitting here in fron of our monitors don't get to hear what your hearing. Only you.

 

Piston slap, I gather, is very rare in these engines, but not impossible. Probably sounds different that lifter noise, but I don't know how.

 

Did you say 140 K? Thats young. But I only got 15000 on mine, and bad thrust bearing. (idiots did the rebuild, I have no idea what went wrong, wish I did.

 

I don't remember how long you said you left the seafoam in the crankcase, but sometimes it needs more time to work than some folks figure. Others times it can work fast.

 

One other thing, are you running the stock gauge only? They are notoriously innacurate. Mine said minus pressure at idle. Installed good mechanical gauge, and had 15. New oil pump brought it up to 25 at idle. Ticking went away for a day.

 

Me? I'm tired of screwing around, gonna CCR the darn thing and be done with it. I think.

 

Know this probably didn't help much, but best I can do at 1AM.

 

Good luck

[subynut]

Turbone: Will ATF loosen up that caked on oil in there better than seafoam? Could I mix the two?

 

pyromanic:

No, I'm not absolutely sure it's TOD, but it sure sounds like it. It appears to be comming from the heads. It's really loud initally for about a minute after the oil presssure guage comes up, then it's not as bad, but it's still loud enough that worries me. If it was my car, I would still drive it and just keep an ear on it. But, since it's my sisters'........no....I don't trust it. I'll check for play in the crankshaft and run the engine a bit longer and let the seafoam go to work. It hasn't been in there very long, so maybe I just need to be more patient. When I did that trick in my Suby, it cleared up that tick in a matter of minutes. Guess this one is gonna need a little more attention.

Yes, 140k is not very old for a Suby engine. She got 200k out of her other Suby. But that was cause those were mainly highway miles. This one I think are mainly city miles. A BIG differance.

I wonder if there's somthing blocking the inlet of the oil pump.......hummmmmm

 

Thanks guys,

[subynut]

Is it possible to drop the oil pan without pulling the engine?

[MilesFox]

my car rarely ticks. i ran my oil for 5 k miles or so before i changed it. fresh oil and filter she ticked for a day or 2 and it went away.

 

if other seals are leaking this will provide a loss of oil pressure to the top end as the oil is going out of the motor rather than to the lifters

 

run some atf in your oil and run it till your next oil change, at least a good 1000 miles or a weeks worth of daily driving or maybe a month.

[subynut]

Yeah, I don't remember when I changed her oil last. I think I'll give it a long drive and see if it will clear up. Thanks, guys!

[Bucky92]

It took about 3 weeks to a month for my 92 Loyale to stop ticking with MMO. It was good for as few months and now just started to come back..Added Seafoam Sat after doing a fresh oil change..still ticks....give it some time..

 

 

As for the oil pressure..mine runs high at start-up then drops to just about nothing at 3000 rpms..and 0 at idle..this is common for those motors..I been running mine like that for almost 2 years..and I would still trust it to take me across country (OK after I do timing belts) with 188K on it..

Even my 32K mile 82 GLF ticks...but thats from lack of use right now...should clear up after its run for abit

[idosubaru]

you don't have to pull the engine to pull the oil pan, but it is sligtly annoying and will require unbolting motor mounts and trans mounts and tilting/lifting hte block up off the cross memeber some to get the baffles in the pump to clear the sump inside of it.

 

as far as your TOD. do all the lifters seem to be making noise? if the noise is located at only one cylinder or two, then it's likely just a dirty HLA (lifter) that is causing the noise. enough oil changes and MMO/Seafoam or ATF (i'd recommend ATF/seafoam for quicker results) and it may go away. and that's why resealing the oil pump wouldn't help - because the HLA's were dirty before you changed the oil pump seals and afterwards they were still dirty.

 

but - it could still be oil pump related. did you apply sealant between the oil pump housing and engine block mating surfaces? there are two areas at noon and 6pm on the rotor housing on the engine block that are supposed to receive dabs of anaerobic sealant. i have heard of one instance where someone resealed their pump and didn't do this step. they went back in and did this step and no more ticking. there's a chance that's not what solved their ticking problem, but it did go away after they did it again with the sealant.

 

maybe the oil pump and/or rotor should be replaced. you could mic it or just replace it, though that is expensive. at 140,000 city miles the oil pump could easily be in need of replacement.

 

i would personally try adding 2 quarts of ATF with 3 quarts of oil and drive it for a couple days and drain and refill. then do it again if it doesn't go away. but do that at your own risk, i'm not responsible for anything. i've done this before but don't want anyone telling me it blew their car up.

 

i would also concentrate on narrowing this down to an engine wide problem or just one cylinder, two or three or all of them.....narrowing it down will help narrow down the actual cause.

[subynut]

OK, I temoarally installed an aftermarket guage and it read about 19 psi at idle and around 60 psi up around 2000-3000RPM with the engine warmed up. I did a little serching and I found that the ticking is comming from mainly the driver's side. So......I've got at least one bad oil sender and/or guage, will be fixing that tomarrow. I've got good oil pressure. I think it's just a sign of poor maintenence. Will be adding some more seafoam and do some driving and I'll see if I can get this roo running better.

Pyromanic: I checked for end play of the crankshaft and there was none.

 

Thanks guys and gals!

[pyromanic]

OK, I temoarally installed an aftermarket guage and it read about 19 psi at idle and around 60 psi up around 2000-3000RPM with the engine warmed up. I did a little serching and I found that the ticking is comming from mainly the driver's side. So......I've got at least one bad oil sender and/or guage, will be fixing that tomarrow. I've got good oil pressure. I think it's just a sign of poor maintenence. Will be adding some more seafoam and do some driving and I'll see if I can get this roo running better.

Pyromanic: I checked for end play of the crankshaft and there was none.

 

Thanks guys and gals!

 

Yea, the "crank walk" I think is pretty rare. Have only heard of like three cases. I have one. Still not sure what I'm gonna do about it. I'd happily trade it for TOD any day. Oh well. Luck of the draw.

 

Pyro

[subynut]

Well, I picked up an aftermarket electric oil pressure guage. Put it in there and the thing leaks. Found out that the pump's threads were shot and somebody put a heli-coil in there. Well, the heli-coil broke and is leaking. So, now I'm looking at maybe useing the port for the idiot light and adding a little extention on there and re-locateing the sender unit someware else. Oh, this is so much fun!

[subynut]

Process completed. I put the old sender unit back in and it's no longer leaking. I used the idiot light port and ran some tubing over to the passenger side where I mounted the sender unit. It seems that it's working. She's running about 25 psi at 600rpm and about 75 at high idle. TOD has gone and it's quiet again. So, all that's needed is to put the air cleaner assembly back on and my sister will be back on the road again. I'll post some pics tomarow.

[pyromanic]

Process completed. I put the old sender unit back in and it's no longer leaking. I used the idiot light port and ran some tubing over to the passenger side where I mounted the sender unit. It seems that it's working. She's running about 25 psi at 600rpm and about 75 at high idle. TOD has gone and it's quiet again. So, all that's needed is to put the air cleaner assembly back on and my sister will be back on the road again. I'll post some pics tomarow.

 

So what are you thinking stopped the ticking, the Seafoam and oil pump re-seal I take it? Must have just had time to clean things out? Congratulations!

PYro

[subynut]

Yes, I was a little too impatient for the Sefoam to do it's job. Didn't think it was THAT bad, guess I was wrong. Anyways, it's still apart, but not because of engine trouble, but because she asked me to check her brakes: Shot. So, now I'm doing brakes. Will this project EVER end?????

Here's a quick shot of the sender unit:

I ran a hose from the oil pump to here cause the sender unit is too long to fit between the pump and the radiator. Here's the point at the oil pump:

At least she has a working oil pressure guage now.