Manual 4wd/dual tranny variations?!?

[Hank Roberts]

The local Berkeley shop has now put in two replacement transmissions -- both of them wrong.

 

First a rebuilt from CCR -- wrong spline (CCR sent one for a turbo), didn't fit. Pulled, returned.

 

Then a "used Japanese" obtained locally in Berkeley. It had, I found out a week later, one less electrical connection point -- the original had connectors for one more wire input for the computer sensors. (I think five switches on the original, four on the 'used' one,not sure.)

 

(they've taken that one out too, and gone looking for an exact replacement. I'd've thought that was the right thing to do from the start, but I'm not a mechanic....)

 

The local shop didn't tell me about this til I brought the car back in -- mechanic said, well, he tried to work it out logically, and thought it might work OK. But no, in 500 miles, it ran funny, got codes -- crank angle sensor, neutral switch, and I think I last saw an unlisted one, a simple "6" on the engine check light codes, unpredictably.

 

So, apparently the Subaru manual 4wd 5-speed dual range transmission comes in a variety of styles.

 

Anyone know for sure? What are the variations in sensors/wires on the 4wd-5speed-dual_range transmissions that might be put into a GL wagon (rightly or wrongly)?

 

Fortunately, my original "all it did was pop out of first and third gears" transmission was still at the shop, and they've hauled it over to the company that supplies the used Japanese models to try to find a match.

 

By now, at least in theory, CCR or someone could have rebuilt my original (sigh). But who knows for sure.

 

If you know any better (grin), please advise.

[calebz]

The codes you are getting don't have anything to do with the transmission. The 4wd 5 speed transmissions don't interface with the computer at all.. All of the plugs on it are for things like reverse lights, 4wd and High/low lights.

 

All of the part time D/R 4wd 5 speeds are pretty much the same from 85-89 (non RX), with the possibility of small gearing difference.

 

so basically, there are three types.

 

RX PT D/R - -85-86

RX FT4wd D/R 87-89

all the others

 

Plugs may vary from year to year, but do not affect the way the car runs.

[Caboobaroo]

it sounds like the original tranny is an easy fix. The detent that hold the shift fork into first and third, since they are the same, is bad . A detent is basically a little ball with a spring behind it, applying pressure against the shift for rod and when you shift into a gear, the ball pops into a groove in the shift fork, preventing it from coming out of gear...

[pyromanic]

The codes you are getting don't have anything to do with the transmission. The 4wd 5 speed transmissions don't interface with the computer at all.. All of the plugs on it are for things like reverse lights, 4wd and High/low lights.

 

All of the part time D/R 4wd 5 speeds are pretty much the same from 85-89 (non RX), with the possibility of small gearing difference.

 

so basically, there are three types.

 

RX PT D/R - -85-86

RX FT4wd D/R 87-89

all the others

 

Plugs may vary from year to year, but do not affect the way the car runs.

 

Yes, what he said.

[Hank Roberts]

I guess it's time to dig the 1969 Dodge Sportsman camper van out, since no matter what we're going to take the kids on the camping trip as planned in the middle of next week.

 

I don't think the Subaru is going to be working, at this rate.

 

Amazing. The guys at this shop have been in business since 1980 doing Subarus, at least one of them is factory-certified. But they think all the wires need to be hooked up, for the car to be done right.

 

Which wire isn't needed and what does it not do?

 

So the crank angle sensor error is -- what, another mechanical failure, just coincidentally?

 

Crank angle wouldn't give an error because he computer thinks it has an automatic in it? (we know the neutrall switch error is an automatic transmission error code -- people get it if they take an automatic out of the car and put a manual in, I've read elsewhere -- but how does the computer know, if not by the wiring?).

[NorthWet]

Crank-angle sensor is in the distributor; it is the slotted disc/optical emitter-detector. My guess is there is a wiring/connector glitch (i.e. - dirty connector or bad ground). Regarding auto vs. manual, my understanding is that there is a pin/jumper on the ECU that sets whether the car has a manual or automatic.

 

Add to caleb's list what you already know: Turbo trannies can have different splines.

 

*edit - And, as I had mentioned previously, the CCR turbo tranny should have fit just fine, except that your existing axles would not fit. Not as it should be, but in the list of glitches that can occur when swapping things, a relatively minor one that I personally would have accepted as it is an upgrade. - end edit*

[Hank Roberts]

>pin on the ECU

 

No idea on that. But if there is an ECU setting, it hasn't been touched. I've never found any documentation about those.

 

> various transmissions

 

What I got wasn't the exact same as this car had.

 

With the replacement transmission, the car was a complete slug in first gear instead of the fairly snappy accelerating vehicle it had been before, despite popping out of first.

 

The replacement transmission was like pushing glue, trying to get up enough speed to get across an intersection at a four way stop for example, it just crawled slowly from a stop each time.

 

That could have something to do with the crank angle sensor, I guess, and just be coincidental it broke at this point?

 

>sounds like the original tranny is an easy fix

 

Maybe, but all that's offered is a complete rebuild -- CCR offered to do that, but with a three week turnaround time, after they found they didn't have one already rebuilt to go in this car.

 

Doing just the easy fix with 240,000 miles on the transmission -- rather, having it done, since I can't do it myself -- seemed a risk that with this many miles, everything will be somewhat worn -- that was what I was told when I asked if someone would try fixing the known problem with it for me.

[Hank Roberts]

So -- help me understand this.

 

Is the transaxle not part of the transmission? I find a tech reference to the neutral switch, and one of the codes we have says the "automatic transmission neutral switch" is giving the wrong info (since it's a manual transmission, this is part of the puzzle)

 

PURPOSE

Informs the ECM when transaxle is in neutral.

 

LOCATION

On transaxle case, operated by shift fork rod.

 

OPERATION

When the transaxle is shifted into neutral, the shift fork allows the neutral switch to close. When the switch closes, it completes a path to ground, signaling the ECM that the transaxle is in neutral.

 

-----

Still trying to figure out the other wires. But this is enough to explain why the mechanic believes the computer needs to be hooked up to the switches after replacing the transmission, since this is one of the codes -- isn't it?

 

What am I missing here.

[Hank Roberts]

One further clue, perhaps.

 

I went to alldata, and am going through the complete technical service bulletin and maintenance files for the 1988 GL SPFI 4wd wagon.

 

No great surprise, but maybe not everyone knows this:

 

California has extra sensor hookups not on the federal spec vehicles, and different error codes.

EGR temperature sensor, for example, was used only on California models.

-----

 

 

Still hunting transmission switches to see what's what, in the TSB files.

 

Haven't figured this one out yet, but it's indexed as connecting transmission and computer somehow.

OF course that could just be the index, maybe it's not actually doing that. BUt, I can sure see why people have different opinions.

 

I see why the California mechanics try to replace with exactly the same parts, too.

From the index to TSBs:

Sensors and Switches - Powertrain Management

. . Sensors and Switches - Computers and Control Systems

. . . Transmission Position Switch/Sensor

. . . . Locations

. . . . . Part-Time 4WD

[Hank Roberts]

Another one from the service bulletins:

 

M/T - second gear grinds, Number 03-43-89

 

This was "what to do if the customer complains about grinding into second gear" -- it says that this is a fix that can be applied for grinding problems on manual transmissions -- 1985 through 1988 -- that would have transmission numbers (I assume this is a serial number?0 lower than 072344, "which is approximately the beginning of" the 1989 model year production.

 

Changes the angle of the baulk ring and reverse driven gear friction surfaces to improve the braking and shifting characteristics of these components .... as well as replace the 2nd driven gear when performing this repair ... also checking gear dogs and synchronizer sleeve splines.

 

With the note that 1988 model year transmissions use "the spring gear type 2nd driven gear, but 1987 model year and prior models use the conventional type."

 

The modified part numbers are given for the gear reverse driven, the balk ring, and second driven gears with gear ratios of

1.950

1.947

2.111, and

2.105

 

---

This is the service bulletin for "popping out of first gear"

Number 03-42-88, November 14 1988, replacing and canceling 03-39-88

 

Popping out of first while driving may be a problem with clearance between the first driven gear and the pinion shaft bushing -- replace the 1st-2nd driven gear bushing with part number 32249AA002. Then, measure the outside diameter of the bushing and pick a first driven gear from a list of several different part numbers, to get the right clearance.

 

Hmmm, I guess there must be some variability in that part number, since they tell you to install it, then measure it in three places, take the largest measurement, and use that to pick one of several "driven first gear" model numbers to install, to end up with a gear to bushing clearance of 0.023 to 0.060 mm.

 

Whew.

 

-----

So again nothing to do with the mysterious wiring on my transmission -- but a couple of things to think might or might not have been taken care of when getting a used transmission.

-----

[Hank Roberts]

Where is the "transmission number" found? Is it stamped on the outside of the case somewhere?

(Can you see it in a junkyard for example?)

 

Do you all who work on these things routinely know about and do the "second gear grinding" upgrade on these transmissions yourselves?

 

Or do you know if they most likely all were done back when the service bulletin came out in 1989?

 

Can you still get the various different upgraded transmission part parts?

 

It sounds like an old handmade clock -- where a part may vary enough to change the sizes needed for other parts, when replacing pieces, so you have to measure them, not just slap in the replacement!

[Hank Roberts]

And from the mechanic -- "oh, really?" as they take delivery of another replacement "used Japanese" transmission -- this one an exact match (as far as all the electrical connections" for my 1988 GL. They'll put it in tomorrow. And test drive it, saying "we won't know for a while if it's a good one or not."

 

The guy said he'd noticed -- as I had -- that with the first "used Japanese" replacement (the one with one fewer electrical connector), that it ground going into second gear -- and he'd put in different gear oil thinking it was maybe just "old and frozen up."

 

I told him to look for the serial number -- dated before S/N 072334 -- "approximately the beginning of the 1989 model year" -- since that's when Subaru started making them with this fix installed at the factory.

 

Any used transmission before that date -- who knows, without taking it apart, whether it was upgraded for this problem or not.

 

Note especially the warning on this TSB 03-43-89 -- the driven second gear is supposed to be replaced at the same time as the upgraded baulk ring and reverse gear parts are installed,

"because of the wear patterns these parts have developed with each other and it will prevent the transmission from being repaired a second time for the same condition."

 

Ewwwwww.

I hope someone knows where to look for the serial number, assuming it's marked.

 

Summing up the manual tranny warnings

 

-- "second gear grinding" TSR 03-43-89 -- transmissions dated before s/n 072344: upgrade the baulk ring and reverse driven gear with modified parts, replace the second driven gear, and other worn parts

 

-- "popping out of first" TSR 03-44-89, replace the first-second driven gear bushing with a modified part; take three measurements and pick the right driven first gear size, out of several possible; replace the first gear synchro and the reverse driven gear, and shifter fork and other parts if worn.

 

-- "shifter fork selection" TSR, 03-38-87, as of the date of this TSR (11/23/87), the official Subaru service manuals specified the wrong part number for the 1985 wagon and 1800 sedan, 1986 XT and L series, 1987 L series, and 1988 L series.

 

I suppose "run it into the ground and put in whatever you find in a junkyard" is the alternative, especially if the car's going to get beat up a lot -- after all these years.

 

But if anyone's looking for transmissions, maybe this is of some use.

 

I'm sure I've missed a lot more info. Pointers welcome.

[Hank Roberts]

bumping to reask the question -- where do you look to read the transmission serial number?

[Qman]

It should be on a tag on the front top of the bellhousing. It may be stamped into the case as well.

[ShawnW]

That tag is on the engine bellhousing instead of the trans which doesnt help in this case.

 

What model car do you have? Didnt see that in the post.

[NorthWet]

...

 

Can you still get the various different upgraded transmission part parts?

 

It sounds like an old handmade clock -- where a part may vary enough to change the sizes needed for other parts, when replacing pieces, so you have to measure them, not just slap in the replacement!

"Selective part fitment" is common in anything that is gear related, as the needed installed clearances are the same as, or smaller than, production tolerances. Almost everything else in a car has very sloppy clearances when compared to a gearbox or differential.

 

And I don't think that you want to even consider tearing into your transmission to replace synchronizers and gear pairs. The parts new from the dealer would quickly exceed the market value of your car, and the effort/expense needed to do the teardown and reassembly could be immense. I have done transmission mini-rebuilds on other makes, but none required gears to be pressed off/on the shafts as I have heard needs to be done with the Subaru transmissions; this adds to the expense and the opportunity for something to go wrong ($$$).

[Hank Roberts]

Back from more than a week camping with the car.

 

This is a 1988 GL 4wd wagon, manual 5-speed, dual low range.

230,000 plus on the vehicle, maybe 60,000 on a rebuilt 1800 SPFI engine.

 

The transmission serial number tag is a metal strip on the transmission - but illegible on the three transmissions we've had put into this car so far.

 

There may also be a tag on the engine as you suggest, but the engine is also a "Used Japanese" put in a few years ago by the previous owner.

 

The transmission we went camping with -- the third one swapped in so far -- appears to have the wrong gear ratios -- the mechanic had this "Aha!" moment when we called by cell phone from the mountains way back in the National Forest last week, after finding it slippery on mud in 4wd and almost impossible to get OUT of 4wd.

 

He had forgotten that he knew a place to actually test 4wd on the ground -- duh -- he'd just tested it on the lift before telling us the car was all set right to take the kids camping. So he hadn't tested it, basically, just told us he did. Arrrrg.

 

Forgotten? Well, so they say. There's a dirt/gravel road a few blocks away from the SOS Subaru shop their front office manager told me about, usable to make sure the 4wd shifts correctly.

 

Symptom of "wrong gear ratios" -- it goes INTO 4wd very smoothly. It switches from high to low range in 4wd smoothly. It's incredibly hard to get OUT of 4wd -- done exactly as the manual specifies, on soft sand or gravel, straight ahead at low speed.

 

Once it does shift out of 4wd, there is an enormous "clunk" and the whole car shakes.

 

The tires on the back have scoured and feathered badly.

 

Apparently with the wrong gear ratios, even when moving straight ahead in 4wd on rock/dirt/gravel, the front and rear wheels are moving at different RPMs and with the weight mostly on the front, it's the rear wheels that have been slipping most of the time.

 

This would also explain why when we were taking the kids up the mountain road in the rainstorm, the 4wd was less safe -- more likely to slip and slide on the rear end -- than using the regular 2wd setting.

 

The mechanic says, well, the people who send us transmissions have all claimed -- for each of the three we've gotten in so far -- that they were the right ones. The tags on them have all been illegible so no Subaru serial number on any of them so far.

 

----------------

 

I looked at the number of different types of 5-speed manual dual-low-range transmissions Subaru has made.

 

Of course I don't know how many of each variety were made or are in the stockpile they pull used transmissions out of.

 

But my guess is the odds of getting the right one would be about 1 in 9, each time the supplier blindly picks one and sends it out to be installed.

 

Why so low?

-- slightly different gear ratios on different models

-- the 1989 model year was the first one built with the 2nd-gear-grind fix, otherwise either they've been fixed or not, no way to tell

-- there's another Tech Service Bulletin about a dealer fix for the popping-out-of-first problem, which has either been fixed or not, no way to tell.

 

------

 

Bottom line -- I've asked the local shop (SOS Subaru in Berkeley) to contact CCR again and also Rising Sun in Chico, CA -- the two places I know that advertise they rebuild transmissions for Subarus -- about getting my original transmission rebuilt. At least we know it's the right model.

 

The SOS Subaru shop says that if CCR actually does good rebuilds, their price is reasonable -- the local rebuilders around Berkeley charge $1500 to rebuild one so nobody uses them, they just do this swap-and-test til they get a used one that works.

 

I never heard back myself when I phoned and emailed CCR about this weeks ago, but they did talk to SOS Subaru about this when they sent us the first (wrong type) rebuilt. I'm hoping they can either get us a known good correct rebuild, or rebuild mine right.

 

------

 

The car handles wonderfully in 4wd, on dry gravel/dirt, even now -- it only felt dangerously slippy at the rear end on the wet muddy road in the rain. So. Wish us luck.

 

I'll know more later in the week or next week.

[MilesFox]

the only thing i could think of for you getting the wrong gear ration for a dual range would be something out of an 85-86 RX with "on demand 4wd" being turbos have a final drive of 3.7 and the non turbo had a 3.9 gear

 

 

ypu could put a 3.7 gear differential in back if thats the case

[Hank Roberts]

the only thing i could think of for you getting the wrong gear ration for a dual range would be something out of an 85-86 RX with "on demand 4wd" being turbos have a final drive of 3.7 and the non turbo had a 3.9 gear

 

 

ypu could put a 3.7 gear differential in back if thats the case

 

No, that's not the case now-- too late for that good idea! If the guys at SOS Subaru had known or suggested this, when we got the wrong rebuilt transmission sent to us from CCR weeks ago, it would have solved the problem. Dagnabbit! Banging head gently on desktop ...

 

 

Here's where I saw a chart suggesting a variety of possible (wrong) transmissions that could be mistakenly sent to us here --- remember we're getting "used Japanese" now from people who probably don't know much and just pull what's on the shelf on a try-and-see basis (sigh).

 

I saw a chart listing a variety of different gear ratios on Subaru's manual 5 speed dual low transmissions -- in the Technical Service Bulletin set online from Alldata for this model 1988 GL SPFI 4wd manual -- specific to this car, but some of it lists all the various things Subaru made for similar cars.

 

I assume you have access to the Tech Service Bulletins? Alldata appears not to want me to publicly post them - I"ve paid for a year of access.

 

M/T - 2nd Gear Grinds

Subaru Technical Service Bulletin: NUMBER:03-43-89

DATE: 02-10-89

APPLICABILITY 1985 THROUGH 1988 MODEL YEAR SUBARU VEHICLES WITH MANUAL TRANSMISSION

 

 

QUESTION--

 

Do you know anything that would explain the very difficult 4wd-2wd shift lever motion -- incredibly stiff -- and then clunk-shudder, going from 4wd to 2wd?

 

We've had the previous owner try it, he was camping with us and the kids, and he agreed it never felt like this with the original transmission in it. It's sure different that it felt when I bought it and drove it to the same mountain originally. That was when it was slipping out of first gear. Now I wish that was my problem!

 

----

 

As to the current transmission, our third replacement -- This one is not a turbo -- that was weeks ago! (grin)

 

Mistake #1 was a rebuilt turbo, from CCR, sent back. (Spline? wrong, mismatch, didn't fit, not used)

 

Mistake #2 was tranny with wrong number of electrical connectors (and probably wrong 2wd first gear, it was a slug, plus throwing many computer error codes). That was sent back.

 

#3 is this one -- making the huge clunk-and-shudder when shifting out of 4wd to 2wd (it has the right number of electrical connectors and throws no computer code errors, and feels right in 2wd.)

 

So

 

Thanks Miles. I wish I were local to you for this kind of work.

I've had bad carpal tunnel -- surgery failed -- and my hands don't work well to hold tools, so I have to rely on mechanics locally.

 

I'm using the Subaru for botany field work -- I _can_ handle a shovel, or a microscope, still -- and taking kids camping on the botany study area. So I'm going to keep at trying to get this working.

[NorthWet]

The individual gear ratios (first gear though fifth) are relatively irrelevant... unless you are a rock-crawler or racer. The thing that would make a difference is whether or not the front and rear final drive ratios match. As Miles pointed out, all of the part-time D/R 5-speeds have the same 3.90:1 final drive ratio, with the exception of a couple model years of RX (rallycross) cars. It is VERY unlikely that your new tranny is out of an 85-86 RX. Just for grins and giggles, though, you might want to check the ratio that is on your rear differential's shiney metal tag to make sure it says 3.90.

[MilesFox]

also consistent tire diameter should be all the way around the car. if there is any difference between the front and rear tires you will get your bind

 

 

your car should have 185/70 tures for the 4wd dual range tanny. it may have 175/70 tires but thats ok. whats important is all the tires around the car are the same size

 

if you have a hard time shifting out of 4wd try reversing a car length or 2

anyway do what northwet says and check the gear ratio on the rear diff. it should say 3.9 and that is what the car would have come with from the facotory, if its any different than someone changed it out, wether you know that or not

[naru]

Sure sounds like the front/rear tires/differentials are mismatched.

I would check by going to a gravel road,engaging 4wd,stopping,and then marking each tire w/chalk.Drive forward 10 turns and compare alignment.This will show which end has which of the 2 possible ratios(if the tires are the same size).

 

Subaru North America had 5 different part-time 5 speed D/R transaxle part# 85-9.One of them is specific to 87 Calif. GLs!Only one is listed for your car, Subaru part 32000 AB520,ID# TW75F9A2BV

[Hank Roberts]

The individual gear ratios (first gear though fifth) are relatively irrelevant... unless you are a rock-crawler or racer. The thing that would make a difference is whether or not the front and rear final drive ratios match. As Miles pointed out, all of the part-time D/R 5-speeds have the same 3.90:1 final drive ratio, with the exception of a couple model years of RX (rallycross) cars. It is VERY unlikely that your new tranny is out of an 85-86 RX. Just for grins and giggles, though, you might want to check the ratio that is on your rear differential's shiney metal tag to make sure it says 3.90.

 

What would cause the described 'bang' on shifting out of 4wd?

 

Does anyone recognize this symptom?

 

Yes, I have the standard 3.90 rear differential, it is readably tagged. That's why the turbo rebuilt tranny from CCR failed to fit, remember -- otherwise that would have gone in and worked fine, eh?

 

I suppose I am a rock crawler --- on back roads, we use mostly LOW 4wd range, in first gear or second gear -- heavily loaded, moving seven to ten miles an hour uphill, or ten to fifteen miles an hour downhill, on up to ten percent grades on "road" surfaces with erosion gullies in them requiring careful steering from high side to the next-- to avoid dropping a wheel and high-centering the vehicle.

 

These are roads that will kill a big American 4wd truck driven carelessly. I saw one yesterday, a couple hundred feet down toward the Eel River, cab crushed in, looks like it did several tail-over-nose turns before it came to rest in the trees. This is NOT an unusual sight in this National Forest.

 

There are several other dead vehicles like that off the road between the end of the pavement and my botany restoration site. The Forest Service doesn't even haul them out, they just rust away. They do remove the bodies (this goes into the Russian River and Marin County's water supply, eventually).

 

So -- Rock crawler? you tell me ....

 

We are looking at plants, not bouncing over the road for an exciting ride, but I assume that's what you mean. The last time a bear crossed the road in front of me, if I'd been going any faster, the 3' diameter boulders he kicked off from the uphill side would've come in my passenger side window instead of landing just out in front of the front bumper.

 

Rock crawler? Maybe. Sure do have this problem though.

 

4wd-2wd gear shift VERY VERY stiff, and when it shifts out of 4wd the whole car jumps and shudders.

 

Anyone recognize this as a symptom? It shifts from 2wd to 4wd, and 4wd high to low to high, just fine. Only the shift out of 4wd causes the jump and shudder.

 

The rear differential is indeed 3.90, which is what we expected in this model and what fits the NON-turbo transmission originally installed in it.

 

Is there any visible difference in a "RX" model transmission, that would let either the "used Japanese" supplier or the local mechanic know for sure what they were installing?

 

Is anything else likely to cause this 'bang' and shake when shifting out of 4wd?

[MilesFox]

to ask again what size tires are you rinning, and what make, are all 4 the same size or make? as tires or rear end ratio are the only things i can think of causing a bind

 

a bind will be caused from different rotation speed of the front axle vs the rear axle, as one wheel in front will be locked with one wheel in back, either the same side or diagonally, as the front and rear diffs are open but the front axle and rear axle are locked in by a gear, so 2 tires are always engaged witheachotehr across the front-to-rear

[NorthWet]

The bang sounds like bind between the front and rear axles, caused by tire rotational differences. Miles point about matched tires is very important. Naru's suggestion on checking the rotational difference sounds very practical. Normally, as long as you are on a loose surface, bind isn't much of an issue unless either diff ratios are mismatched or tire diameters are mismatched.

 

By rock-crawler, I was thinking of the folks amongst us that do not dodge those 3' boulders but go OVER them. To some of them, a few percentage points of difference in a low gear or intermediate gear might be important, especially as magnified by additional transfer cases and such.

 

Umm... your car had a dual range and CCR sent you a single-range?

 

Anyway check your tires for matched type/manufacturer, size, and wear. And try naru's rotational test.