enchained Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 Well, we've had our new old subaru for all of 2 weeks, and after spending a few minutes in the presence of board member Numbchux's rather sweet lifted wagon (my wife and I were *both* drooling all over it...how often does harmony like that happen? it's a sign )it's been settled that we've *got* to do this with ours. Neither of us have any hard core off-road experience but we've both played around a bit -- I had a smashed up old Cherokee in high school that I bought for $600 and had plenty of fun with, but it was more along the lines of "whee, a rutted up muddy parking lot!!" than serious trails and stuff like that. I probably would've kept that thing except I ended up commuting ~700 miles round trip from college to home and back every weekend and it had some downright scary handling characteristics on the highway due to crash damage. anyway, I'm not interested in building a serious rock-crawling machine, I just want to play in mud & deep snow, and be able to explore whatever funky little trails I can find out in the woods up here. The troublesome bit is, our car ('88 turbo wagon, fulltime 4wd, 4EAT auto trans) isn't exactly ideal for offroading. A second dedicated off-road rig isn't an option due to living circumstances (apartment, parking on the street, i *do* have access to a garage to work on the car but I don't live where the garage is). It must remain an automatic for my wife -- this is actually why I bought the turbo car, in order to get the supposedly more reliable & better driving 4-speed auto, I couldn't care less about the extra 20 hp, if I wanted a fast car I'd have bought something else . It also needs to remain reasonably reliable (duh) since it's our only car. given all this, am I nuts considering a lift for this car? are the full-time auto trans & lack of D/R going to make it useless for offroading anyway? some searching turned up this post showing a way to get the 4EAT to lock up like "real" 4wd so I'm not worried about that, and I guess I'm hoping that the torque converter can help make up for the lack of low range. maybe if I'm lucky it'll let me get enough rpm's up to get into boost even. I searched the forums hoping to find someone who's offroaded a turbo/auto before but no such luck. I'm also wondering if the auto will cause problems with the lift install, I'm presuming that the makers of the popular lifts assume (with good reason) that everyone's going to be running a manual D/R trans, so I'm afraid I might end up with problems with the tranny crossmember, shift linkage, and so on. anyone with experience on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chef_tim Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 It is very addictive stuff, these lifted Subbies!!! How ever I will tell you if this is your daily driver you may want to concider other opptions. The car in it's self is not really what you want in the way of an off road vehicle. The auto and turbo make it a fun car for the street but not pounding mud. Now if you just wanted to lift it to look cool, you could try, but I guarentee you won't be able to stay on the road with it.....LOL. I'd really try looking for an old EA81 wagon or hatch. In the end it's all up to you, I'm just sharing some wisdom. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudduck Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 I have a 91 Loyale with single range 4wd and 5 speed and its gotten me through some tough situations, but nothing to serious. Withot low range, you will be really working the auto tranny. If it were my dailly driver I would leave it stock and , get a second vehice for the really rough stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 I'm not going to tell you no, but in the week I've been driving with oversized tires, I've found that lo range is SOOOO nice. and freeway speeds are tough (might be easier with the turbo/mpfi). it's up to you guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganM Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 I'm excited to see yet another MN Subaru wanting to get lifted. From what you explain the car will be mostly on-road and a little off-road. If you are comfortable working on the vehicle extensivly then a lifting your Subaru isnt out of the question. Keeping the tire size to 26" or 27" tall will be less wear and tear on the vehicle. Since you wont be going offroad much that saves on a lot of added wear and tear. It is an old car however and it's going to need maintainace plus repairs as needed. As far as capability it should meet and exceed your expectations. Deep snow will be enjoyable to drive through. Stay out of the mud unless you like getting stuck and walking in it You could go over to Gilbert at the state offroad park and enjoy about half of the trails they have for ORVs. Plenty of easy trails to enjoy out there. Easily to do a one day trip from Duluth to Gilbert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott in Bellingham Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 I built a offroad buggy from a 76 Datsun pickup it was striped of body and mid engine ,it was 2 wheel drive with stock auto transmision , befor I built it I thought wow I wish this was a stick instead of a auto trans. well we got it done put some oversize tires on it , it went awesome even took it to the sand dunes, if it was me and I had a automatic subie I would lift it and put some tires on it I wouldnt go any bigger the 26-27" on the tires , its somewhat under powered but that also saves you from braking stuff , I would definatly do it if my wife was excited about it ,the autos neet cause you just have a "GO" petal and a "STOP" petal , and running offroad its simpler , some of the serious offroad rigs have automatics, you might consider a added trans oil cooler if it builds up to much heat, keep us informed on your progress. SJR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmountainmonk Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 As far as making your rig as dual purpose as practicable, you might consider finding an LSD rearend (it'll be a simple bolt on switch since yours is already a 3.7) and a set of 14" or 15" rims (peugeots or AA's) and some 26" or 27" tires and see what you can do with that. A lift would certainly look cool but you can do a lot without it if you learn to finesse your rig through various terrain. I wouldn't think that auto linkage would be that difficult to adapt to a lift...I would think it would just be a matter of carefully extending things...most likely less compliacted than D/R linkage... However, if your wife is enthusiastic about lifting a rig and off-roading, you should challenge her to learn to drive stick and go D/R...you will love it in the snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zefy Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 now you might have a problem off-roading in the full-time trans... since it would have a center diff... which means (theoreticly) if one tire looses all traction then the car isn't going to move... if you can upgrade the trans(well technicly downgrade...) to something with a locked center diff...(or no center diff at all!) its probably going to be fine beating around in the bush but it'll be easier to get stuck then a normal 4wd... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 I'd say go for a 3" lift all round, and run 27" All terains on it. You're not planning to do seroius off-roading with it, and that will gain you a lot for basic trail running. If you do find a LSD, definiately go for it. If you get stuck, just make sure that you don't work the tranny too hard. An oil cooler, for the tranny, was an eccelant suggestion. Would suck to go from a 4EAT to a 0EAT. Make sure you have a skidplate for the engine. Go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enchained Posted June 21, 2005 Author Share Posted June 21, 2005 thanks for all the replies...I think we're probably going to go for it. I've got a couple things to sort out on the car before I get to doing this so it'll probably be a few weeks, I'll keep ya'll updated once we get to work on it (I think my wife wants to help! she actually took a bunch of automotive tech. stuff in high school, and her dad is a mechanic, so she may very well know more than I do -- i'm pretty much self taught, heh). one question though, can you still buy the byb/ozified kit in the states? I have some reading to do before I decide which kit to go with, but they've got a big red banner about orders being suspended on their webpage, which would make all the research in the world a moot point. also, I'm still trying to sort out in my brain how the 4wd in the 4EAT works in practice. I understand the idea with the computer controlled cluthces and such, and we know it can be locked into FWD with the fuse under the hood. so if it really works like an open center diff and I can get stuck spinning only one wheel, couldn't I just -- if it's a rear wheel that's spinning, put it in FWD momentarily via the fuse (wired to a switch on the dash), and if it's a front wheel that's spinning, yank the parking brake, stopping the front wheels & sending power to the rear? and does anyone know if it really is like an open center if you wire up a switch like in the thread i originally linked to? A tranny fluid cooler sounds like a good idea, I'll look into that. I must confess i've never owned an automatic car before so I need to do some research =] does the AT oil temp warning light come on at a low enough temperature that it'll be useful to avoid doing damage? I'll try and find a rear LSD too, but I'm not all that hopeful about my prospects around here, and the ones that pop up on ebay now and then are on the spendy side. and i think my mom would be annoyed if i stole the one from her forester:rolleyes: which isn't the right ratio anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zefy Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 and i think my mom would be annoyed if i stole the one from her forester:rolleyes: which isn't the right ratio anyway. and its a viscous type... not as useful off-road...:-p and blah blah wrong ratio... just thought i'd throw that out there... good luck with your lifting adventures!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganM Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Just saw the banner on Ozified.com also. Guess they are 'reorgenizing' and you can't order a lift fromt hem PKdavis get's on here from time to time; shoot him a PM and ask when they will be available again I guess. Don't even bother with wiring a switch to the FWD override. You'll never use it like that. If you get stuck you get stuck and the people you are with help you get out These things are so light that if you were spinning one or two tires off the ground we could all get on that corner and bring it down or all push on your car and get you over the obsticle Worst case you get winched through and thats cool too. Last time my open diffs were letting me down (front left and rear right didnt have enough traction) I just kept picking a different line untill I made it. The time's I've been STUCK no amount of brake jokeying would have got me out Over there at Gilbert OHV park there are LOTS of fun trails that your 3" lifted wagon could go down with little worries about getting stuck. Almost all major obsticles have a by-pass trail. There's clear signs notifying you of trail difficulty before you even get on it. Really you only get stuck up there if you break something or you are pushing your limits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudrat79 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 I build these Cars All the Time.... I have several Questions For you.... 1.) How many miles on the car and trans...? 2.) Whats the rust issue like...? 3.) Are you mechanically inclined enough to tackle installing a Lift yourself....? Ok, and here are some right now realtime recomendations.... As far as the tranny goes, Get an external trans cooler on it ASAP....Run the plumbing though the rad like it is now, then to the external cooler then back to the trans....Doing it this way will keep the fluid as cool as possible.... If you can get away with it, Delete the cat, and stock exhaust....Go 2 1/2 off the turbo into 3" or 2 1/2 all the way back....Also stick a K&N Air filter in it or some aftermarket high volume filter....these 2 things together will improve economy as well as performance.... Also, Phantom Grip LSD is an Aftermarket unit you can buy for around 275-300$ and is an easy install to the rear diff...... Light trail running like old roads, or unimproved roads will be no issue for your ride in its current state , but if you want to tempt off camber mud holes or large ditchs you will have issues without at least a rear LSD...... I can build a 3" or 4" Kit for your Auto driven Car......I've done them before One was Even on a Turbo Wagon..... Let me know, E-mail me or Pm me.....I may be slow to respond....as I start working for my Local subi Dealer Next Monday, so All Aftermarket Subi Stuff will be at Nite.... check my Website out.....HAve a rag handy, you may drool.... see it here.....http://www.oregonoffroadsubaruclub.org Have fun.....Cool to see The Mrs. involved..... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 after thinking about it, I'd say get another wagon! get a non-turbo, 5-speed, D/R 4WD one, probably the simplest combanation out there, and lift it. And let your wife drive the turbo... I know you've got street parking, but what's the worst that could happen? you might have to park one of them a block or 2 away? Get Another one!!! and I'll help you lift it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganM Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 after thinking about it, I'd say get another wagon! get a non-turbo, 5-speed, D/R 4WD one, probably the simplest combanation out there, and lift it. And let your wife drive the turbo... I know you've got street parking, but what's the worst that could happen? you might have to park one of them a block or 2 away? Get Another one!!! and I'll help you lift it. I totally agree that idealy one should have a toy vehicle if they really plan on extensive modifications and real offroading. However they said thats not a feasible solution. I honestly know where they are coming from. I had 5 cars at one time and lived in an apt. It was hell always playing musical parking spots with everyone in the area. Then when the snow flies; you have to find parking spots that you wont get towed from, that arent already taken, and are within a reasonable walking distance. Usually that all happens early in the monring before work becuase it snowed all night! Now compound the factor of your stupid facility manager saying everyone hast to be out of the parking lot by 9 AM so they can plow it.... but the snow emergancy doesnt end untill 11AM... It really is a huge hassel having multiple cars with no personal, designated, parking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 I totally agree that idealy one should have a toy vehicle if they really plan on extensive modifications and real offroading. However they said thats not a feasible solution. I know they did....but I know them (this whole subaru thing's my fault anyway)...and it is possible. no snow emergencies up there, year-round weekly alternating street parking, except for a few main drags. And if worse comes to worse, he can park the project car up on my slab (that's cool with me! ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enchained Posted June 22, 2005 Author Share Posted June 22, 2005 blah, don't call it your *fault* =] you act as if it's a bad thing... Chux, talk to me on AIM or call me about the car arrangements -- i have an idea in mind but not exactly what you suggested. I don't think we'll buy another soob, if I want to go the 2 car route it would be cheaper & more sensible for me to keep that crummy old camry my friend offered us for free and mod the turbo in a more offroad-friendly direction. and it may not sound that bad in theory but the parking in our neighborhood sucks, odds are 10:1 i have to park a few blocks away if i come home anytime after about 6pm, and i think we have 2 vacant apts in our building so it's only going to get worse when people move in. we've only lived here for 2 months and i'm already determined to never live in a place without offstreet parking again... i'll talk to ya about it later on. anyway on to mudrat's questions...car has 114k, I assume the tranny is original, seems to be in good order -- no wierd behaviour, fluid is clean. minimal rust, car came from 1200mi southeast of here. I haven't installed a lift before but i'm pretty sure i can manage it, and it sounds like chux might be willing to help anyways. will do on the tranny cooler, dunno about the exhaust, we don't have emissions here but i may just have too much of a consceince...plus the guy we got the car from put brand new stuff on it from the DP back a few months ago so it seems silly to replace it while it's still shiny. I'll post back once we decide what to do. right now i'm busy wrestling with the rear axles, one of them came out in about 5 minutes, other one has stood up to 5 hours of beating and heating and i'm about ready to take a hacksaw to it ;p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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