Black Dot?

[Midwst]

Could someone please tell me why consumer reports gives the Loyale engine a "black dot"...which is the worst it can get. The early 1990's Saturn gets a black dot for its engines because of excessive oil consumption past the rings. So there must be SOME reason for the bad mark. Everyone here sings the praises of the Loyale, but there is obviously something thats not being said. i'd rather know now than find out the hard way.

[MilesFox]

probably their analysis is based on cost or frequency of maintenance

 

bear in mind an older subaru is an enthusiasts car, are best suited for the kind of people who like to work on and maintan their own vehicle

 

things like changing timing belts every 60 thousand miles and torn axle bots will give it a bad rating. things like that can be big$$$ if taking it into a shop to do, but super cheap to do yourself!!!

 

aside from the attention to maintenance the subaru is a very well built car and will last for hundreds of thousands of miles. dont let the consumer reports scare you off, this is where its at on this here message board.

[baccaruda]

my subaru leaves "little black dots" all over the ground where it's parked

[Flowmastered87GL]

Ya I remember seeing that when I researched buying my 87 GL back in uhhhh like 1997 or so. The dealer told me the old owner had put in a new engine so I thought I was dodging the black dot.

 

Hmmmm what have I replaced? Engine, Clutch, Driveshaft, CV's, Brakes (many times), Carb (many times), Tires cause the alignment doesnt last long, radiator, all the hoses!, wheel bearings, entire rear suspension assy, exhaust (twice).

 

The sad part was the engine died like 1000 miles after I got the car... and that was like 500 miles after we paid to have new timing belts installed because the old ones broke on me.

 

Ya if you dont keep up on em they are trouble.

 

now that I understand the car fully, its more relible, it just needs new suspension bushings because it has so many miles on it.

 

I think to date I have spent well over $7000 including the price of the car ($2700) to keep this car running. Its a great car though

[MilesFox]

on the contrary a 200 dollar car can see many 10's of thousands of miles should you know what ot expect from it and take care of anything before it comes a problem, for little $

[Midwst]

Some of you don't believe in the little black dots...but when I bought my 91 legacy it had a black dot for brakes. I wondered why. After numerous attempts to readjust the emergency brake shoes, I finally just removed the damn things because they wouldn't hold an adjustment. In my experience, black dots mean things that go wrong with the car not just once, but repeatedly. Like the 87 gl...replacing the carb multiple times. It just shouldn't happen. Someone out there knows the loyale story....maybe its just like the saturn. If you know it uses oil and nurse it along it will last 200K plus. But if you don't know it uses oil, then the timing chain fails costing huge $$$. The 1991 Legacy should have a half black dot for the damn transmission. This whole torque binding thing shouldn't happen either.

[Bucky92]

You know....I know many people that sware by consumer reports..and get screwed..people are looking for a no maintenance car..well thats not going to happen.People are just lazy now adays. Do Loyales have problems??? Yes...are they major..No.Can they be annoying at times...Yes. But if you are willing to do the work on them yourself they are cheap and easy to keep going. If these are such bad cars then why do the majority of them have well over 200,000 miles on them? The thing that kills the Loyales,GLs and DLs etc...well any EA82 is rust. You go to a junk yard and most of them that are there still run but are rusted out.

 

I live by myself and have a VERY limited income(and if you havent noticed I am female!)..I cannot afford to take my car to the garage for anything but maybe to change a tire. I bought my Loyale 2 years ago cause I remembered my 88 GL wagon was such a good car..I got rid of it due to my own stupidity at the time. It needed an exhaust and they wanted a fortune to replace that I didnt have. (But all cars cost alot for exhaust these days when you think about it). I used that GL as a delivery car which is very hard on them...and it kept going like a champ.

 

You are looking at a 13 year old car also..you have to remember that.If you want something with no maintenance then you need to look at a new warrenteed car.A Loyale will run forever ..you just have to spend time with it.Also..if the one your are looking at is AT...I feel that was one of Subarus early weak points (now its head gaskets..read posts in the new gen forum..it almost makes me laugh).

 

I have a beautiful 82 GLF coupe with 32K on it...and it has problems from not being run enough. But I accept that..and it doesnt make me hate the car..if anything it makes me like it more. Another member has one of the most gorgous 78 Brats I have ever seen..low mileage..but it has problems from not being run enough.

 

I would much rather take the word from people who actually own these cars and drive them EVERY day then by some compant that is paid to give cars reports.

 

Just my 2 cents and I am sticking to it:grin:

[Roundeye]

my subaru leaves "little black dots" all over the ground where it's parked

 

LOL!

[chef_tim]

You know....I know many people that sware by consumer reports..and get screwed..people are looking for a no maintenance car..well thats not going to happen.People are just lazy now adays. Do Loyales have problems??? Yes...are they major..No.Can they be annoying at times...Yes. But if you are willing to do the work on them yourself they are cheap and easy to keep going. If these are such bad cars then why do the majority of them have well over 200,000 miles on them? The thing that kills the Loyales,GLs and DLs etc...well any EA82 is rust. You go to a junk yard and most of them that are there still run but are rusted out.

 

I live by myself and have a VERY limited income(and if you havent noticed I am female!)..I cannot afford to take my car to the garage for anything but maybe to change a tire. I bought my Loyale 2 years ago cause I remembered my 88 GL wagon was such a good car..I got rid of it due to my own stupidity at the time. It needed an exhaust and they wanted a fortune to replace that I didnt have. (But all cars cost alot for exhaust these days when you think about it). I used that GL as a delivery car which is very hard on them...and it kept going like a champ.

 

You are looking at a 13 year old car also..you have to remember that.If you want something with no maintenance then you need to look at a new warrenteed car.A Loyale will run forever ..you just have to spend time with it.Also..if the one your are looking at is AT...I feel that was one of Subarus early weak points (now its head gaskets..read posts in the new gen forum..it almost makes me laugh).

 

I have a beautiful 82 GLF coupe with 32K on it...and it has problems from not being run enough. But I accept that..and it doesnt make me hate the car..if anything it makes me like it more. Another member has one of the most gorgous 78 Brats I have ever seen..low mileage..but it has problems from not being run enough.

 

I would much rather take the word from people who actually own these cars and drive them EVERY day then by some compant that is paid to give cars reports.

 

Just my 2 cents and I am sticking to it:grin:

 

AMEN!!!!!

If you are going to depend on a magazine to pick your car then find the one with green dots or what ever they use to designate a perfect car and buy that one!!!

[Midwst]

I have been screwed many times by consumer reports. The biggest problem with them is not the black dots, but the white and stripped dots. Black dots are generally accurate...which means I like to know why and what to pay attention too. Does not mean run away, just look both times before crossing the street. Many times consumer reports has rated a car good or okay and it turns out to have major chronic problems. The Geo Metro, Quad 4 engine on pontiacs, the saturn, etc. Should have had harsh reviews, but were pushed off as good. I plan to use the car as a delivery car...in the winter, my subaru is like an IV drip. Can't live without it. I live in fear of it breaking down in winter because I have no garage. Yes, I have been known to put fuel lines in at zero degrees in a down parka and puffy gloves. gotta do what you gotta do. I am not stranger to cars, just want to know what to look out for so I can prevent it before it happens.

[NorthWet]

IMHO, Consumer's Union looks at all things it tests as appliances or commodities. They serve a function as CU defines it. There is no passion, no interest, no real special use for anything. Cars exist to get you from Point-A to Point-B. Period. I would think that a reliable Chrysler "K"-car would get their highest ratings.

 

I gave up paying much attention to CU tests and rating about 20 years ago. CU's ratings are valuable for others that share their same view of consumer goods, but I don't. I am unlikely to buy a new car, so their new car ratings are useless to me. If they currently rate used cars (like I said, I don't pay attention anymore), their "Frequency of Maintenance" doesn't matter too much to me as I do my own wrenching and actually enjoy to do so.

 

I have come to appreciate the general design of Subarus and the general ease of working on them. Clutches are more work to replace on my 4WD Subarus then on my RWD Datsun, but no way near as bad as the transverse-engined FWDs that I have worked on.

 

Headgaskets are a trouble spot, but really only if the cooling system is compromised. These cars were built during the time that aluminum radiators started to become popular, and IMHO suffer from that. Aluminum radiators are an attempt to save money, and they go bad rather quickly. So you get marginal cooling causing overheating, and owners that don't keep up with the anti-corrosives in their coolant, resulting in a high incidence of blown HGs. A bad HG is not a serious problem for a mechanical owner, but cost-death for your basic-transportation owner. Likewise with the timing-belts: EVERYBODY KNOWS that a broken t-belt means belt valves and probably a damaged head... but not on the Leone/Loyales. So most unknowing owners would junk it because a $10 part snapped.

 

Let's talk general reliability. Its considered that most new car buyers in the USA keep their car for 3-5 years before buying a new one. During the last decade or so, the average miles/year put on a car in the USA was around 10000 miles (last year it was raised to 20000 ... big jump). So, USA car manufacturers have little incentive to make cars that last. 100000 miles is considered almost worn out for a USA car. Subarus will run 200-300k miles easily if given reasonable maintenance and perhaps new HGs (gaskets "age", so miles are not as important as years and heat-cycles). Given some "freshening" of the engine, there is no reason that a Subaru couldn't go a million miles (at least out West here where rust isn't much of a problem). Except to wrack up that kind of mileage means dodging the statistical likelihood of an accident, and being "totaled". Most of my Subarus have over 200000 miles on them. (My Datsun has over 300000 miles on it; and it still has all 6 of its original u-joints (IRS), rear-wheel bearings, brake rotors/drums, and many other such parts that MIGHT last 50000 on domestic-built cars.)

 

A car's "worth" is all in how you measure it. I measure it differently then does Consumer's Union. They don't value my view, and I don't value their's.

[Midwst]

In resonse to NorthWet, here's the questions. On a 1992 Loyale with only 25K miles, should I just go ahead and put in a new radiator as a prevantative measure? Would switching to a Legacy radiator be a good idea? Also, would there be a reason to replace the Head gasket as a maintenance item, or should I wait till there is a problem? Would prefer to wait, obviously, but don't want to crack/warp anything. Plus machining the block isn't cheap I'm sure!

 

I will try to find the maintenance records on the car so I have some clue of when things were done.

 

Speaking of head gaskets, I did notice the the oil was overfilled and had a very slight green tint to it. Otherwise it looks super clean, no chocolate milk. Smells ok. The antifreeze is full and brilliant green. I think its just the brand of oil. no smoke out the tail pipe.

 

Will definately replace the thermostat right away...just in case.

[MilesFox]

if i was you with the same car i would drive it as it is, with the mind to replace anything as it gives trouble. if anything i would put a water pump and timing belts on(age factor, and its the same work to do eaither)

 

then keep an eye on the temp gauge, should you notice the car rides a little hot over time you can consider a radiator, a bad radiator is something that develops over time rather than something that goes out right away

 

timing belt would be the most important, as its really the only thing that will leave you stranded off the side of the road. and do the woater pump in the same operation,

 

here is a suggestion that i will make, if you get that farinto the motor go ahead and remove allthe plastic belt covers for ease of future maintenance, that way if a seal leaks or you replace an oil pump seal in the future, its all east yo get to and it saves you a loto fo work such as removing the crank pulley or ac compressor. also if you do break a belt on the side of the road, you can fix it in 10 minutes with 2 tools. put the new belts on and keep the old ones in the thrunk as get me home spares. my 2 cants

 

i run open belts on all my cars, and on cars i do work for for other people if they chose the option. i have never had a reliablity issue with exposed belts, and many others have adopted the idea here as well

 

plus without the covers any oil leakage will drip away rather than get thrown around on the belts

 

wait till winter comes and you will be glad you picked up this car!

[Turbone]

In resonse to NorthWet, here's the questions. On a 1992 Loyale with only 25K miles, should I just go ahead and put in a new radiator as a prevantative measure? Would switching to a Legacy radiator be a good idea? Also, would there be a reason to replace the Head gasket as a maintenance item, or should I wait till there is a problem? Would prefer to wait, obviously, but don't want to crack/warp anything. Plus machining the block isn't cheap I'm sure!

 

I will try to find the maintenance records on the car so I have some clue of when things were done.

 

Speaking of head gaskets, I did notice the the oil was overfilled and had a very slight green tint to it. Otherwise it looks super clean, no chocolate milk. Smells ok. The antifreeze is full and brilliant green. I think its just the brand of oil. no smoke out the tail pipe.

 

Will definately replace the thermostat right away...just in case.

 

Is this mileage correct, or just a typo? If you meant to say that the car has 250,000mi on it, you definately need to do some major preventitive maintenance. This high mileage is not uncommon btw, many Subarus make it beyond this mark. But they do only if regular maintenance is done. There will be some major costs down the road, no car is perfect (Subaru comes close ).

If the car really has only 25,000mi on it and you have the maintenance records, make sure what it was serviced for frequently. This would lead to a problem when it was manufactured (LEMON) and there is nothing you can do about it (my opinion only).

I'm not sure if a Legacy rad will fit in a Loyale, its a different layout under the hood. Just make sure you do all you can before winter to insure nothing surprises you.

[MilesFox]

a legacy radiator will be too tall and wont fit without doing some cutting, that and the fittings for the hoses are larger than the ea82

 

by the way will you be going to the iowa meet this year in august? i should be there so long as tim can make it too. we will be bringing a trashwagon replica

[NorthWet]

The cooling system itself is not really a problem area, but the engine does not tolerate overheating well; but then, few aluminum-head engines do. If coolant has been regularly maintained, your cooling system is probably in decent shape. I would check the radiator by hand, warming it to operating temp and feeling across its surface for cool rows that indicate plugged tubes (they tend to be bunched in large groups, usually top or bottom or both). Any replacement radiator should be satisfactory, and there is a 2-row radiator available that is meant to go into the turbo-engined vehicles.

[chef_tim]

Is this still the same car from your first post??? If it is I think you said there was some rust. Was it a 4wd??? Automatic or manual shift??? Maintenance has already been discused. For $1800 it had better be in excellent condition, if there is rust on it then the low mileage is a mute point. Can you get some pictures of it, would help in getting you a good price? Tim

[Midwst]

Yes, the milege really is 25K. Not 250K. Some very light rust. I talked the guy down to $1500. Which I think is a fair deal. No rust penetration into the car itself. Yes, I may see you guys at the midwest subaru even near DesMoines. But I'm not sure I will drive the Loyale out there. Not a good hwy car in my opinion.