Strange behaviour in tight turns

[rvanhell]

Hi everybody,

 

My 1999 Impreza Brighton, which has run like a gem since I got her in late '98 is showing some strange behaviour and I was wondering if anybody has experienced the same thing.

 

When I turn the wheel almost all the way to the right or left at low speed, the car drives as though it is running over rough ground.

 

It's even more pronounced when I turn the wheel and back up, it's like I'm backing up over large corrugated iron or something rough. It's bad enough that my passenger noticed it. The problem seems to be on the right side front wheel. I've looked at the wheel an I see nothing, I've tried to wiggle the wheel manually and it seems solid. Nothing seems to be leaking. I just don't know what it is.

 

Two other things that are going on that may or may not be related:

 

- When I go over small bumps now, the car shudders like the shocks are going, but when I do the bounce test by pushing the car down to see if it bounces, the shocks behave like normal.

 

- After driving about 10 to 15 minutes on the highway and then stopping at an idle, I get a smell a lot like hot used oil in the car. I have no leaks and see nothing amiss in the engine bay.

 

If anybody can give me an idea what's going on, I'd really appreciate it.

 

Rob.

[Harry Fassett]

Sounds like a bad CV joint. They are inside of the rubber boots that are at the ends of your axles. You typically check if they are good by making sharp turns. If they are OK the turns should be as smooth as when driving straight. If bad they do something like what you mentioned.

[SuBrat84]

You didn't mention if you have manual or auto trans?

[LosDiosDeVerde86]

Hi everybody,

 

My 1999 Impreza Brighton, which has run like a gem since I got her in late '98 is showing some strange behaviour and I was wondering if anybody has experienced the same thing.

 

When I turn the wheel almost all the way to the right or left at low speed, the car drives as though it is running over rough ground.

 

It's even more pronounced when I turn the wheel and back up, it's like I'm backing up over large corrugated iron or something rough. It's bad enough that my passenger noticed it. The problem seems to be on the right side front wheel. I've looked at the wheel an I see nothing, I've tried to wiggle the wheel manually and it seems solid. Nothing seems to be leaking. I just don't know what it is.

 

Two other things that are going on that may or may not be related:

 

- When I go over small bumps now, the car shudders like the shocks are going, but when I do the bounce test by pushing the car down to see if it bounces, the shocks behave like normal.

 

- After driving about 10 to 15 minutes on the highway and then stopping at an idle, I get a smell a lot like hot used oil in the car. I have no leaks and see nothing amiss in the engine bay.

 

If anybody can give me an idea what's going on, I'd really appreciate it.

 

Rob.

 

torque bind?

[rvanhell]

You didn't mention if you have manual or auto trans?

 

Sorry, it's a manual transmission. Of course this morning I brought it to the mechanic and I couldn't reproduce the problem. The only thing I can think of is that it only does it after a good amount of highway driving.

 

It drives me nuts when that happens!

 

Thanks for the responses, I'll let you know if the mechanic finds anything.

[1 Lucky Texan]

Sorry, it's a manual transmission. Of course this morning I brought it to the mechanic and I couldn't reproduce the problem. The only thing I can think of is that it only does it after a good amount of highway driving.

 

It drives me nuts when that happens!

 

Thanks for the responses, I'll let you know if the mechanic finds anything.

 

Are you running different sized tires or a spare? Done so recently?

 

We also do need to know what tranny you have.

 

Carl

[rvanhell]

I am using the standard size tires for the car, it's never worn a spare. It is a manual 5 speed transmission on the 2.2 liter engine. The transmission is stock. Is that what you meant by what tranny I have?

[1 Lucky Texan]

I am using the standard size tires for the car, it's never worn a spare. It is a manual 5 speed transmission on the 2.2 liter engine. The transmission is stock. Is that what you meant by what tranny I have?

 

Do investigate the CV joint boots. Sometimes they split and spray grease on the exhaust - but a mech should've spotted it.

 

Possible center differential going bad. When you turn - is it just the 'feeling' or do you hear clicking or knocking? If you hear something, is it one side versus the other? That's a CV joint.

 

Center differential is a lot more expensive than CV joints. get it to a GOOD Subaru mechanic. Unfortunately, this sounds more like your problem.

 

Carl

[rvanhell]

Do investigate the CV joint boots. Sometimes they split and spray grease on the exhaust - but a mech should've spotted it.

 

Possible center differential going bad. When you turn - is it just the 'feeling' or do you hear clicking or knocking? If you hear something, is it one side versus the other? That's a CV joint.

 

Center differential is a lot more expensive than CV joints. get it to a GOOD Subaru mechanic. Unfortunately, this sounds more like your problem.

 

Carl

 

I hear knocking and it is on the right front side. But, as I said, I couldn't reproduce it at the mechanic this morning (the mechanic is 3 minutes from my house), so I'm assuming that it takes some sustained highway speeds to make it make the sound.

 

I checked the CV joint boot on the right side, and it seemed in tact. The car has about 100 000 miles on it, btw.

 

If this guy I went to this morning can't find anything (and he hasn't called, so this is what I'm assuming), I'll take it to the dealer and have them have a look (and that will take care of the sustained highway driving).

 

Thanks for the help, I'll let you know how it resolves itself.

[1 Lucky Texan]

I hear knocking and it is on the right front side. But, as I said, I couldn't reproduce it at the mechanic this morning (the mechanic is 3 minutes from my house), so I'm assuming that it takes some sustained highway speeds to make it make the sound.

 

I checked the CV joint boot on the right side, and it seemed in tact. The car has about 100 000 miles on it, btw.

 

If this guy I went to this morning can't find anything (and he hasn't called, so this is what I'm assuming), I'll take it to the dealer and have them have a look (and that will take care of the sustained highway driving).

 

Thanks for the help, I'll let you know how it resolves itself.

 

Less likely culprits would be the strut, the inner joint (tripod or double offset) or a wheel bearing(?) The grease smell is what points to the center diff, CV joint or strut. I don't see how the shuuder going STRAIGHT over small bumps could be a CV joint. I dunno - perhaps you have 2 problems. It may be worthwhile to actually measure the circumference of your tires (after confirming proper inflation pressure) Subaru claims they need to be within 1/4" of each other. The ctr diff on the manual cars may be a little less picky about this number than the auto trannies.

 

let us know - might help me or someone else in the future!

 

Carl

[rvanhell]

I don't see how the shuuder going STRAIGHT over small bumps could be a CV joint. I dunno - perhaps you have 2 problems.

 

Right on! I do have 2 problems. I finally checked ALL the shocks, and my back left shock is gone, bouncy as hell. So that is definitely the change in behaviour on the straights.

 

As for the turns, I was out last night and checked the main problem again at home. The problem still occurs in forward and reverse and is noticeable at slow speeds in moderately tight to tight turns. I still think I feel it only on the right, but to be honest, I can't be 100% positive. I would put it at about 80% sure that the problem is isolated to the front right-hand side.

 

The mechanic found nothing yesterday. I will bring it in to the dealer next week to see what they say, and I will report back with their findings.

 

Now that I know that I have to do at least the back shocks, would it be worth it to get Subaru to do them with OEM parts, or does it not matter? These ones have lasted 100 000 miles, so I'm thinking it might be worth it to spend the extra cash.

[1 Lucky Texan]

Right on! I do have 2 problems. I finally checked ALL the shocks, and my back left shock is gone, bouncy as hell. So that is definitely the change in behaviour on the straights.

 

As for the turns, I was out last night and checked the main problem again at home. The problem still occurs in forward and reverse and is noticeable at slow speeds in moderately tight to tight turns. I still think I feel it only on the right, but to be honest, I can't be 100% positive. I would put it at about 80% sure that the problem is isolated to the front right-hand side.

 

The mechanic found nothing yesterday. I will bring it in to the dealer next week to see what they say, and I will report back with their findings.

 

Now that I know that I have to do at least the back shocks, would it be worth it to get Subaru to do them with OEM parts, or does it not matter? These ones have lasted 100 000 miles, so I'm thinking it might be worth it to spend the extra cash.

 

There are others here that have more experience with stuff like that but I think Soob shocks (or cartridges/whatever) are made by a well respected company - I wanna say Koni but don't hold me to that.

I think high quality after market installed by a competent mech would be fine - just don't know if it's worth the inconvenience to you or not. So far, 2 mechs have not been able to diagnose the torque bind/whatever problem you still have. I might be tempted to avoid any very Subaru -specific work given to those guys, but installing cartriges/struts should be about the same as other cars I guess.

 

thanx for getting back to us with results.

 

Carl

 

EDIT! - I just had a weird thought, is it possible you drive off road or on gravel a lot? If so, could a blown shock cause enough slippage of its associated tire to overwork the center differential? In other words, are the 2 symptoms you have related? I hope someone else is monitoring this thread - I'm getting outta my league now!

[Setright]

KYB make the dampers or "shocks" as you call them. Certainly a high quality item. Might be worth trying to find KYB branded dampers instead of the more expensive, but same component Subaru branded parts.

 

Texan, I like the off road idea...good insight.

[rvanhell]

EDIT! - I just had a weird thought, is it possible you drive off road or on gravel a lot? If so, could a blown shock cause enough slippage of its associated tire to overwork the center differential? In other words, are the 2 symptoms you have related? I hope someone else is monitoring this thread - I'm getting outta my league now!

 

I haven't brought the car in yet... I'll make an appointment for Wednesday. As far as the off road question goes, I don't do any off road, and only a small amount of gravel driving, and very little in the last year. Of course it can be argued that driving in Montreal is a reasonable imitation of driving off road, lots of potholes and the like. Also, winter driving provides a fair number of rough surfaces.

 

I think the key to the problem lies in the fact that if there hasn't been at least 5 or 10 minutes of highway driving, the problem does not appear.

 

I'm about to do some reading on torque bind, just to be sure that this isn't the problem.

 

Thanks again for the input.

[1 Lucky Texan]

I haven't brought the car in yet... I'll make an appointment for Wednesday. As far as the off road question goes, I don't do any off road, and only a small amount of gravel driving, and very little in the last year. Of course it can be argued that driving in Montreal is a reasonable imitation of driving off road, lots of potholes and the like. Also, winter driving provides a fair number of rough surfaces.

 

I think the key to the problem lies in the fact that if there hasn't been at least 5 or 10 minutes of highway driving, the problem does not appear.

 

I'm about to do some reading on torque bind, just to be sure that this isn't the problem.

 

Thanks again for the input.

 

I'd still be interested in measuring the actual circumference of the tires. Even though they are all the same style/wear - tread separation may lead to a difference in size I guess.

 

thanx for the updates btw.

 

Carl

[rvanhell]

So, I went to the Subaru dealer who spent about 45 minutes with the car. I saw at least 2 mechanics drive it and then 3 or 4 standing under the car when it was on the lift. There seemed to be a committee meeting going on.

 

Anyhow, the verdict is that the viscous clutch is seized and the whole assembly needs to be replaced. That will cost (let me convert from Canadian to US dollars here) about $1000 taxes and labour included.

 

I asked how it is that the problem only occurs after it warms up, and the guy said that the oil thins and then the clutch seizes. I then asked if it wouldn't help to replace the oil, and he said it might help on more minor cases, but in this case it won't make a difference.

 

All along I said I heard the problem in the front, but I was told it is in the back, but because it is in the transmission, the vibrations are transferred all the way to the front.

 

Anyhow, I hope this is the end of the story, I certainly hope these guys know what they're talking about, because if I'm paying a grand, it had better fix the problem.

 

Also, they noticed my back left side strut is leaking badly which I already knew. They said a new one is $230 (USD). Is that a reasonable price, or really outrageous?

 

Thanks again for all the input.

[1 Lucky Texan]

So, I went to the Subaru dealer who spent about 45 minutes with the car. I saw at least 2 mechanics drive it and then 3 or 4 standing under the car when it was on the lift. There seemed to be a committee meeting going on.

 

Anyhow, the verdict is that the viscous clutch is seized and the whole assembly needs to be replaced. That will cost (let me convert from Canadian to US dollars here) about $1000 taxes and labour included.

 

I asked how it is that the problem only occurs after it warms up, and the guy said that the oil thins and then the clutch seizes. I then asked if it wouldn't help to replace the oil, and he said it might help on more minor cases, but in this case it won't make a difference.

 

All along I said I heard the problem in the front, but I was told it is in the back, but because it is in the transmission, the vibrations are transferred all the way to the front.

 

Anyhow, I hope this is the end of the story, I certainly hope these guys know what they're talking about, because if I'm paying a grand, it had better fix the problem.

 

Also, they noticed my back left side strut is leaking badly which I already knew. They said a new one is $230 (USD). Is that a reasonable price, or really outrageous?

 

Thanks again for all the input.

 

Well, it seems reasonable the smell you had was either the oil in the center diff or some oil (do they have oil? or gas?) form the strut getting on the exhaust. More likely the center diff if you always smelled it when it began having problems. And, as I understand it, the VC center differential works (engages) when slippage at one wheel cause the oil to heat up, its viscosity changes and 'locks' the front to the rear transfering power. That's one reason tire circumference is important, if they are different, the system interprets the different rotaion rates as slippage and you get the center diff to activate. At a distance like we are here, I suppose what they are telling you is quite likely - I just would like to feel confident they have done a good job of diagnosis. It would be a shame if they replace the CD and some tread separation on a tire cooks the new one!

I'd be tempted to have another shop replace BOTH rear struts(cartridges/whatever) just so they would match. As Setright said - KYB would be good. maybe get both rear done by an indie mech. for not much more than one by Subaru. That should also be a job easy to quote by phone so use that to help with you decision. Hope you get this in time.

Thanx for posting back.

 

carl

[1 Lucky Texan]

So, how's the vehicle behaving now? Everything OK?

 

Carl

[Andyjo]

If you're going to replace your struts, you might as well do all of them, i went with KYB when i did it, couldn't be happier (well.. i could if i had bought forester struts..). If you're a little mechanically inclinded and have some time on your hands, and can borrow a spring compressor, doing the struts your self isn't that bad.

 

As for the center diff... maybe get a second check, by someone else, cause a grand is a nice chunk of change, and i've never heard of that part siezing up.. seems to me like it'd be a good thing if you want to run around off-road

[rvanhell]

I had the struts replaced last week (what a difference!) but of course the diff problem remains. I have it at the dealer now, and I clearly said to the guy in service "I assume that this is going to fix my problem" and he obviously said that it would. If it does not, you can bet that they are going to face some serious complaints from me, and a demand that they put back my old viscous clutch and find the real problem. It goes without saying that I will not pay for unnecessary work, so they'd better be sure of what they are talking about.

[rvanhell]

So, that's that. The viscous clutch was replaced yesterday, and the problem has disappeared. Hopefully this thread will help others in the future.

 

Thanks for all your help.

[1 Lucky Texan]

So, that's that. The viscous clutch was replaced yesterday, and the problem has disappeared. Hopefully this thread will help others in the future.

 

Thanks for all your help.

 

Too bad it was so expensive but at least you're back on the road.

thanx for keeping us informed.

 

Carl