Best Car of My Life, But Not Another

[The Dude]

My 99 Forester has been great to own, and a blast to drive. It tows my 20' sailboat without even straining. I've tied 18' pieces of moulding to the roof rack. I bought an utility trailer so I could use my Suby like a 4 wheel drive pick up truck. I'm within shouting range of 200,000 miles. Other than routine maintenance service, I've only needed two front axles (CV boots), and two ball joints. But, I'm in buying mode for a new car, and my next car probably won't be a Subaru. In fact, it will probably be a Toyota Matrix.

WHY, that Forester has been great to me? Well, things change. I've actually seen gas under $1 a gallon while I've owned the Forester. Those days are gone forever. I consider $2 a gallon gas to be cheap, gas is only going up from here. 25 mgp isn't bad, but it won't cut it when gas is $3 or $4, or even more a gallon. I need more mpg, I'm keeping my next car six or seven years, and I see expensive gas in the near future.

I don't like interference (self-destruct) engines. Say what you want, they can, and they do, crunch valves. I also don't like timing belts, ESPECIALLY on an interference engine. The Matrix has a non-interference engine and a timing chain. Maybe I'll have to replace the chain at 200,000 mi, maybe not.

Here in the deep South Suby dealers are far and few in between. If I break down in rural Mississippi I could be hundreds of miles away from a Suby dealer.

Also in the deep South you don't need AWD like you do in Minnesota or Montana. I'ts always a plus to have AWD, but I don't actually NEED it.

It been a great seven years with the Forester. And I know that a Forester will blow the doors off the 1.8L Matrix. But I think it may the smartest decision for me.

[BigMattyD]

Hey, Dude..

 

 

I say, do what works best for you.

 

I like my subaru and would definitely purchase one again, but I live in snow country. It makes a huge difference.

 

Matt

[ferret]

Best of luck to you....I have had Subaru's since 1978, both FWD and AWD. Yes they have given me good service. But our other vehicles during the same time have also. Others will have a problem with this, but next to my 90 Legacy, our 96 Dodge Caravan gave us good service for 162K with only routine maint. That Caravan owed us nothing. As the kids are now older, it was replaced with an 04 Highlander.

Our immediate neighbor has a Pontiac Vibe(Matrix twin).....she is very pleased with it. I haven't heard anything bad about them. Again best of luck to ya.....

[DerFahrer]

Hey, I'm in Florida for Pete's sake and I can't convince myself to get a FWD Subaru! AWD is good for waaay more than snow. In the rain, or even in the dry, you still get much better cornering capabilities than most 2WD cars.

 

And you have absolutely nothing to worry about with interference engines if you routinely change the timing belt...

 

I hear ya on the mileage though. Subarus of late have never been exceptional gas-sippers. I think Subaru tunes them a little rich from the factory, which keeps detonation down and helps the engine last longer, and the trade-off is that gas mileage suffers.

[RallyKeith]

Have you gone and driven the Vibe yet? My girlfriend has the regular vibe (not the GT or AWD) and I don't like the way it drives. It's only got about 120hp and it really shows when trying to pull out from a stop into heavy traffic. Also, I haven't been too impressed with the automatic transmission especially when using cruise control over moderate hills. Other than that the car is nice. Because of the seating position there is tons of room. For reference I've owned a few hondas and volvos, and I'm currently really thinking along the same lines of gas mileage. FWIW the Vibe GT and a Prius list for the same price. Vibe GT 25/32mpg, Prius 60/50mpg, (yes city is better than highway on most hybrids) but I don't need it to tow. I always keep a second(or third) car around for those type things.

 

Just throwing some stuff out there to think about. There is so much out there to chose from these days it makes it very hard to really compare it all. Good luck on finding something!

[rweddy]

I also don't like timing belts, ESPECIALLY on an interference engine. The Matrix has a non-interference engine and a timing chain. Maybe I'll have to replace the chain at 200,000 mi, maybe not.

 

Have you actually checked the service intervals on the timing chains?? Most need to be replaced around 100k. I have owned several Toyotas, great cars and trucks; to replace the timing chain on my 4runner cost around $2500 parts and labor. It is a misconception that chains last forever, most need replacing. Yes this can be a longer interval than belts but they also cost much more and have issues with stretching that belts do not. And they is much more labor involved in replacing them.

 

Also remember Toyota parts are very expensive. I paid $500 for an alternator on my truck. They are very well built vehicles but parts and service is very expensive.

 

Good luck on whatever you choose. But I did hear a call on Car Talk where a woman got a matrix and did not like the buzziness of it and went out and got an outback and was much happier and my outback gets 28-30mpg!

[unverviking]

My folks have had 2 Vibe's, an 03 (Leased, then returned) and a new 05. The 03 was just an FWD, had NOOOOO traction whatsoever in the winter. It drove ok, but not nearly as nice as my 01 OBW.

 

I drove the 05, an AWD, it drives MUCH better than their 03 did. Still not as nice as my 01 OBW, but really close. They too noticed the driving difference as well. They loved the 03, so much that when it came time to get another car, the Vibe was their 1st choice... I think what sold them on the Vibe is, they had taken the 03 on a trip to Fla in March for 3 weeks, and was completely amazed on how much that little car held and how versitile it is. When they returned from FLA, they got the 05 Vibe, a month earlier than the 03 needed to be turned in...

 

Now with the GM employee pricing, might be a good idea to price them out now... Just my 2 pennies worth...

 

In any event, good luck

[subeman90]

I was at a customers house yesterday dropping off a new tractor and in his driveway was a vibe AWD. He had replaced the tires with someting else (orig tires were worn out) but the thing is he put bigger tires on it. I mean bigger! It really looked bada$$ to be honest with you. Also, considering where he lived (NE of reading PA in the sticks) I'm sure that AWD system gets a good work out every winter. If you could buy the vibe AWD (or matrix for that matter) with a stickshift insted of the autobox.... I would consider it in a heartbeat. Atleast they can put an engine together without it blowing HG's (yea I'm still a little bitter about that one)

 

Also I must admit....if I lived down south (anywhere it really doesn't snow or ice too much) I most likely wouldn't own a soob. I would most likely be found in a VW.

[rweddy]

Atleast they can put an engine together without it blowing HG's (yea I'm still a little bitter about that one)

You don't follow Toyota much then, all 90-96 3.0 had major HG issues, there was a national recall, and they are still having issues with HG blowing at low mileage on the newer 3.4 motors.

[DerFahrer]

Don't forget the sludge issues with the 3.0 too.

 

I like the Vibe/Matrix, including the basic one, although I would insist on a manual. The XRS/GT is a lot of fun but only if you go above 6k :-\

 

And rweddy is right. Chains aren't necessarily better, they do stretch over time and still need to be replaced. And they're much noisier.

[benebob]

I actually just tried to talk a friend into driving the Vibe (said he liked the Matrix) when he was looking for a new Subie. Also sent him in the direction of the Snob 9-2. Of course he didn't listen and wouldn't even look at 'em but for the price. I'd get the Vibe! $18.5k for a $27k vehicle. Same thing for the Snob. Instead, he opted for the 20k legacy that stickered at 23.9k. Test drive the Vibe (so long as you'll keep it until the depriciation doesn't matter)!

[subeman90]

OK let me rephrase what I was trying to say before.... atleast Toyota did/is doing somthing about their problem...

 

Ben is right about the dpereciation of the GM cars though... Maybe look for a used/lease return one and save a few bucks?

[benebob]

OK let me rephrase what I was trying to say before.... atleast Toyota did/is doing somthing about their problem...

 

Ben is right about the dpereciation of the GM cars though... Maybe look for a used/lease return one and save a few bucks?

 

No those are new prices. Just keep it til it dies and you won't have a depriciation problem. For 4-8k less than a toyota badge. Its worth it.

[jib]

 

Have you actually checked the service intervals on the timing chains?? Most need to be replaced around 100k.

 

If that's a correct statement, that manufacturer should be shot. My 1988 Saab 9000 had a wear limit on the chain, one I never got to in 250K miles with the original equipment.

 

Jack

[bjwirth]

Just keep it til it dies and you won't have a depriciation problem.

 

I don't think you'll have a depreciation problem with some of these rebadged GM cars. If you spend $20k on a saab that was originally $28k or spend $20k on a sub (new or used), you'll probably lose the same amount of money.

 

Everyone says rebates kill resale values, and that's generally true- especially for the person who bought the car the day before the rebates kicked in. I look at it another way. Manufacturers need rebates to move cars that no one wants. if nobody wants them as new cars, who's going to want them as used cars?

 

If next year, GM does the same "mega discount" again but doesn't include saabs because they sell well, that '05 saab you picked up for $20k will hold its value pretty well. If a new 06 saab goes for $26-27k next year becasue there are no rebates, I'd bet a used 05 will be close to $20. Even if they include saabs in the rebate program, a used 05 will cost $17k ish next year, the same as any other $20k car you buy this year and hold for a year.

 

If you want to buy a saab 9-2, go for it. Don't worry about depreciation. a good car is a good car. As a percentage of what you paid, the resale will be comparable to a subaru.

[benebob]

I don't think you'll have a depreciation problem with some of these rebadged GM cars. If you spend $20k on a saab that was originally $28k or spend $20k on a sub (new or used), you'll probably lose the same amount of money.

 

Everyone says rebates kill resale values, and that's generally true- especially for the person who bought the car the day before the rebates kicked in. I look at it another way. Manufacturers need rebates to move cars that no one wants. if nobody wants them as new cars, who's going to want them as used cars?

 

If next year, GM does the same "mega discount" again but doesn't include saabs because they sell well, that '05 saab you picked up for $20k will hold its value pretty well. If a new 06 saab goes for $26-27k next year becasue there are no rebates, I'd bet a used 05 will be close to $20. Even if they include saabs in the rebate program, a used 05 will cost $17k ish next year, the same as any other $20k car you buy this year and hold for a year.

 

If you want to buy a saab 9-2, go for it. Don't worry about depreciation. a good car is a good car. As a percentage of what you paid, the resale will be comparable to a subaru.

 

Not quite there on your logic. As someone who worked for the Real Manheim Auto Auction for a few years I kinda got a real good understanding of rebates and their effects on the industry. Your flaw is forgetting that we live in a cheap society today. Why do you think people put up with crappy wal marts on every corner that bring us sweatshop stuff? IT IS CHEAP! Once rebates like this start coming out it is a trap. The brands are no longer able to sell w/o making the buying public think they are getting a better deal then their neighbor. In reality, GM vehicles are selling for just about the same price as they were in April. They just are on a scheme that has the publics attention. After Aug 1st when the scheme disappears how many people do you think will look at a GM product for the next 4 months? Absolutely no one since it isn't worth buying at that point so GM will continue the cycle they've been stuck in since 9-11. Long term it actually hurts the company but for the bottom line it is good today. What they really need to do is either make less cars or make more cars that people are willing to buy for said price.

 

Oh yeah, I wasn't talking about the depriciation of the Snob but rather of the Vibe. Currently a 1st year vibe is worth about 2/3rd of the worth of a similar matrix.

[bjwirth]

Once rebates like this start coming out it is a trap.

 

Oh yeah, I wasn't talking about the depriciation of the Snob but rather of the Vibe. Currently a 1st year vibe is worth about 2/3rd of the worth of a similar matrix.

 

I agree with you about the "trap" wrt rebates. This short term fix will may have long term consequences. It's kinda like if you're strapped for cash and you go to a payday loan store. You're ok today, but tomorrow (and next month, and next year) you'll be hurting if you don't address the root of your problem.

 

I was just saying to the casual observer (me, who likes to track the values of his cars as they depreciate), cars just depreciate at a certain rate (expontial decay)- the more desirable cars depreciate slower. my point was that the rebates are in response to the low desirablity of certain cars. BUT in the case of a rebadged car like the saab or the vibe, you're probably ok. I checked edmunds and it seemed that a 2005 vibe xr awd and matrix base awd were within $500 of each other after all rebates. the 2004 equivalents were also within $500 of each other. to me, this seems like the rebates have not affected resale values.