Improved gas mileage? anyone heard of this?

[JaySun]

On another forum I browse, someone posted this link. Anyone ever heard of it? Tried it?

http://pesn.com/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/

[NorthWet]

Yes, we have heard of it: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=39342

I looked through your linked article, and although my Chem and Physics training was a few decades ago, the reasoning still sounds like BS to me.

[JaySun]

guess i should've searched the board. i'm a periodic forum poster. i just figured the gearheads on here would know. peace

[86subaru]

i have tried it ,no mpg gain ,but increase in hp on my 88 5sp , and did ask a chemist and he said the long term may damage the seals around the injectors ,but the same thing is put into fuel injector cleaner , 1 time a year is ok,

[NorthWet]

guess i should've searched the board. i'm a periodic forum poster. i just figured the gearheads on here would know. peace

Sorry, I guess my post was a little terse and could be viewed as being a little hostile. That was not my intent.

 

I just don't care for people that try to get their 15 minutes of fame by writing articles that tout wonder cures using what looks/sounds like bad science. Most of these "super power, super mileage" claims prey on peoples' paranoia that Those Who Are In Power are trying to keep information from them.

 

Logically, if an oil company could provide a fuel that improved fuel economy by double-digit percentages, then they could all but corner the market. They could sell less fuel for higher prices and make a greater profit then selling more fuel at lower prices.

[JaySun]

no feelings hurt here. my own common sense tells me that anything that eats plastic or rubber is probably not good for my injection/fuel system. i wanted to verify it here as i find that most of the advice is sound due to experience. thanks for the link to the other thread. i learned something.

[friendly_jacek]

The idea does sound rediculous and the 20-30% improvement in MPG must be bogus.

 

However, I spend a few hours reading about it and it sounds like some (not all, but majority) who tried it experienced 4-10% MPG improvement, easier starts in cold and smoother idling and reving. It may be just cleaning action though.

 

As for safety, we are talking about 0.25-0.3% acetone in gas. Did you now that diabetic people or people on Atkins diet have some acetone in blood (it is type of keton bodies)? The fuel lines are already solvent resistant, gasoline is potent solvent itself. Finely, some gas additives contain acetone already (chemtool B12, I was told).

 

Nothing to loose. I will try it in next tank.

[frag]

I might try it myself.

His Scan gauge seems very interesting for the price.

[86subaru]

now i did put very little into my riding mower , 2 gal tank ,and yes it did run better ,

[friendly_jacek]

Reporting back on my aceton trial, 3oz/10gal: 16.5 MPG, used the same pump, 87 octanes, no alcohol gas. "Normal" in this car for city driving is 16-18 MPG. And yes, I managed to spill some acetone on pain and tire but no adverse effect. I also tried without result in my toyota. I sounds like it doesn't work for modern MPFI engines. It tells you how desperate I was to improve the bad MPG in my car.

[drquasievil]

Sounds like a job for Myth Busters. Hey you guys are you lissening? Love your show, Give use the scoop. With the price of gas, this draw some viewers.

[tacode]

The idea does sound rediculous and the 20-30% improvement in MPG must be bogus.

 

However, I spend a few hours reading about it and it sounds like some (not all, but majority) who tried it experienced 4-10% MPG improvement, easier starts in cold and smoother idling and reving. It may be just cleaning action though.

 

As for safety, we are talking about 0.25-0.3% acetone in gas. Did you now that diabetic people or people on Atkins diet have some acetone in blood (it is type of keton bodies)? The fuel lines are already solvent resistant, gasoline is potent solvent itself. Finely, some gas additives contain acetone already (chemtool B12, I was told).

 

Nothing to loose. I will try it in next tank.

 

FYI - Acid buildup in the bloodstream is neither normal nor a good thing - it signals Ketoacidosis. It is life-threatening if not treated.

[peiboy]

Yes, I too read the same articles and was intrigued.

 

I tried it in my 2003 Baja with a 2.5.

 

I did two full tanks and I thought it ran a bit better, but the proof is in the data.

 

Before the testing I was getting a typical 24 mpg. During the testing the mileage did not increase at all - I still got 24 mpg.

 

The results of the testing found no significant improvement.

 

On an interesting side note, however, a recent speeding ticket highlighted a more significant opportunity for improvement.

 

I changed my cruising speed from 70 to 65 and minimized my accelleration to no more than half throttle (Where possible)

 

I now get 26 to 27 mpg.

 

I will be experimenting with a top speed of 60 with this next tank and will advise you of my results.

[Milz]

A warning to all would-be suckers. Best to go out and buy the September 2005 issue of Popular Mechanics and read, very carefully, the article entitled "Looking for a Miracle" starting on page 104...

 

“Is it possible that the major auto companies have overlooked – or deliberately avoided – simple engine modifications that would give their cars and trucks an overwhelming advantage in the marketplace”…

 

“Your vehicle already burns 99 percent of the fuel you pay for… Even if one of these miracle gadgets could make the combustion process 100 percent complete, the improvement would be 1 percent. Any device that claims quantum level increases needs to be examined with considerable skepticism.

 

Credit to: Mike Allen, Brent Humphreys, Popular Mechanics September 2005

[charlierh2]

I tried it, and it did seem to do a great job of cleaning up the engine: faster starts, smoother revving and idle, and better throttle responce but mileage is to varied to know without running on a track or something. I'd call it a great 3 month treatment but i dont use it every tank. This was 3oz/10gal.

[Andyjo]

my dad has done an experiment w/ his blazer.. said it worked pretty well, as for my subaru, it hates the stuff.

[nipper]

On another forum I browse, someone posted this link. Anyone ever heard of it? Tried it?

http://pesn.com/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/

 

the MSDS sheet for acetone, no red flags here

http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSAcetone.html

 

nipper

[Ranger83]

The idea does sound rediculous and the 20-30% improvement in MPG must be bogus.

 

However, I spend a few hours reading about it and it sounds like some (not all, but majority) who tried it experienced 4-10% MPG improvement, easier starts in cold and smoother idling and reving. It may be just cleaning action though.///

 

Nothing to loose. I will try it in next tank.

 

And you will get that gain. Have someone put a placebo "mileage booster" in your tank and you'll get the same gain. It's well within the range of normal variation.

[friendly_jacek]

Since I posted this (mind you, this was in 2005), I tried acetone in both my toyota and subaru for 1 tank each. No difference in MPG. The people reporting improvements have either placebo affect, cleaned their engine, or have the car seriously out of tune.

 

However, the people claiming that 0.3% acetone will blow up the car are clueless.

[friendly_jacek]

The people reporting improvements have either placebo affect, cleaned their engine, or have the car seriously out of tune.

I found some evidence to suport my claim from http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=2517

"The vapor/surface tension "thing" just doesn't hold up for about 12.5 reasons (basic, surfactant chemistry). :"They" had the same "discussion" back in the 80/90s when gas was expensive (supposedly) and catalytic converters and oxygen sensors were starting to come in to use.

 

FYI: The acetone is reacting with the catalyst used in the oxygen sensor making the mixture appear" too rich. As a result - the mixture is leaned out by the computer thus the mileage goes up.

 

The reason it does not work the same on all cars is that there are three different metals used as catalysts in O2 sensors: platinum palladium rhodium or in combination. Acetone in combination with NOx (and others) in the exhaust will react differently with each metal to either speed up or slow down the catalytic reaction of the oxygen senor. FYI, I am not talking about the catalytic converter - just to stop about 100 posts.

 

Question: am I the only one on the planet who remembers this? There seems to be a lot of people skiing behind the "vaporization" boat?

 

The reason I know this is that I used to work for Exxon; and fyi, the reason they don't put acetone in gas is that it is hard to get it to stay there and second over time it reacts with different kinds of additives in fuel. Which is also a reason why it does not work on some cars - it's the gas not the car.

 

They have had additives in the past with acetone - old news. It is good that it works though! It simply had gotten more news because of the historic price of gas.

 

Also, this is why ASME standards for elastomers used in cars requires (heavily suggests) that all elastomers be tested with acetone - along with other (i.e . MTBE, M85 ...) Once again, very old (but good) news (remembrances)"

 

If the acetone is indeed affecting the o2 sensor, it would explain why only small amount would have a big impact. Furthermore, for the acetone reaching the o2 sensor, there has to be incomplete combustion and the car has to run very rich. Then leaning the mixture would indead improve MPG. Sounds like the acetone trick is a crutch for failing O2 sensor. People with well tuned car will not see a diffrence, unless there is a placebo effect.

[ctoth]

A warning to all would-be suckers. Best to go out and buy the September 2005 issue of Popular Mechanics and read, very carefully, the article entitled "Looking for a Miracle" starting on page 104...

 

“Is it possible that the major auto companies have overlooked – or deliberately avoided – simple engine modifications that would give their cars and trucks an overwhelming advantage in the marketplace”…

 

“Your vehicle already burns 99 percent of the fuel you pay for… Even if one of these miracle gadgets could make the combustion process 100 percent complete, the improvement would be 1 percent. Any device that claims quantum level increases needs to be examined with considerable skepticism.

 

Credit to: Mike Allen, Brent Humphreys, Popular Mechanics September 2005

 

Do you know if this number is at the tail pipe or the valves? It seems very high. If it is in fact 99% then catalytic converters would be useless, right?

[nipper]

I found some evidence to suport my claim from http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=2517

 

"The vapor/surface tension "thing" just doesn't hold up for about 12.5 reasons (basic, surfactant chemistry). :"They" had the same "discussion" back in the 80/90s when gas was expensive (supposedly) and catalytic converters and oxygen sensors were starting to come in to use.

 

FYI: The acetone is reacting with the catalyst used in the oxygen sensor making the mixture appear" too rich. As a result - the mixture is leaned out by the computer thus the mileage goes up.

 

The reason it does not work the same on all cars is that there are three different metals used as catalysts in O2 sensors: platinum palladium rhodium or in combination. Acetone in combination with NOx (and others) in the exhaust will react differently with each metal to either speed up or slow down the catalytic reaction of the oxygen senor. FYI, I am not talking about the catalytic converter - just to stop about 100 posts.

 

Question: am I the only one on the planet who remembers this? There seems to be a lot of people skiing behind the "vaporization" boat?

 

The reason I know this is that I used to work for Exxon; and fyi, the reason they don't put acetone in gas is that it is hard to get it to stay there and second over time it reacts with different kinds of additives in fuel. Which is also a reason why it does not work on some cars - it's the gas not the car.

 

They have had additives in the past with acetone - old news. It is good that it works though! It simply had gotten more news because of the historic price of gas.

 

Also, this is why ASME standards for elastomers used in cars requires (heavily suggests) that all elastomers be tested with acetone - along with other (i.e . MTBE, M85 ...) Once again, very old (but good) news (remembrances)"

 

If the acetone is indeed affecting the o2 sensor, it would explain why only small amount would have a big impact. Furthermore, for the acetone reaching the o2 sensor, there has to be incomplete combustion and the car has to run very rich. Then leaning the mixture would indead improve MPG. Sounds like the acetone trick is a crutch for failing O2 sensor. People with well tuned car will not see a diffrence, unless there is a placebo effect.

 

http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/

 

Surface tension presents an obstacle to vaporization. For instance the energy barrier from surface tension can sometimes force water to reach 300 degrees Fahrenheit before it vaporizes. Similarly with gasoline.

 

http://www.industrialnewsupdate.com/news/oil-energy/archives/oil_energy_prices/index.php

How it Works

Complete vaporization of normal fuel is far from perfect in today's cars. A certain amount of fuel in most engines remains liquid in the hot chamber. In order to become a true gas and be fully combusted, fuel must undergo a phase change.

Surface tension present an obstacle to vaporization. For instance the energy barrier from surface tension can sometimes force water to reach 300 degrees before it vaporizes. Similarly with gasoline.

Acetone drastically reduces the surface tension. Most fuel molecules are sluggish with respect to their natural frequency. Acetone has an inherent molecular vibration that "stirs up" the fuel molecules, to break the surface tension. This results in a more complete vaporization with other factors remaining the same. More complete vaporization means less wasted fuel, hence the

 

 

and on the down side

 

http://www.ece.kettering.edu/news/archivedDetail.asp?storynum=406

http://www.hhydr.com/Acetone-in-gasoline-1299076.html

 

The automotive engineer in me thinks it really has no effect on young engines where everything is perfect and in spec. On older engines it may make a difference, sinc they do start to get out of spec.

 

new engines burn 100% of the fuel, otherwise we would all be failing emission tests. The catalytic converter:

 

from http://www.howstuffworks.com/catalytic-converter.htm

The Oxidization Catalyst

The oxidation catalyst is the second stage of the catalytic converter. It reduces the unburned hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide by burning (oxidizing) them over a platinum and palladium catalyst.

 

This is why the cat can get red hot if to much unburned fuel goes through the exhaust system. It most likely works on high milage engines for the reasons staed before, wear and tear.

 

Personally like all additives, they are un needed on engines with less then 80K on them, and over that, its like chicken soup, it couldnt hurt, just DO NOT use too much, remeber less is more .

 

nipper

[friendly_jacek]

http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/

 

Surface tension presents an obstacle to vaporization. For instance the energy barrier from surface tension can sometimes force water to reach 300 degrees Fahrenheit before it vaporizes. Similarly with gasoline.

 

http://www.industrialnewsupdate.com/news/oil-energy/archives/oil_energy_prices/index.php

How it Works

Complete vaporization of normal fuel is far from perfect in today's cars. A certain amount of fuel in most engines remains liquid in the hot chamber. In order to become a true gas and be fully combusted, fuel must undergo a phase change.

Surface tension present an obstacle to vaporization. For instance the energy barrier from surface tension can sometimes force water to reach 300 degrees before it vaporizes. Similarly with gasoline.

Acetone drastically reduces the surface tension. Most fuel molecules are sluggish with respect to their natural frequency. Acetone has an inherent molecular vibration that "stirs up" the fuel molecules, to break the surface tension. This results in a more complete vaporization with other factors remaining the same. More complete vaporization means less wasted fuel, hence the

 

 

and on the down side

 

http://www.ece.kettering.edu/news/archivedDetail.asp?storynum=406

http://www.hhydr.com/Acetone-in-gasoline-1299076.html

 

The automotive engineer in me thinks it really has no effect on young engines where everything is perfect and in spec. On older engines it may make a difference, sinc they do start to get out of spec.

 

new engines burn 100% of the fuel, otherwise we would all be failing emission tests. The catalytic converter:

 

from http://www.howstuffworks.com/catalytic-converter.htm

The Oxidization Catalyst

The oxidation catalyst is the second stage of the catalytic converter. It reduces the unburned hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide by burning (oxidizing) them over a platinum and palladium catalyst.

 

This is why the cat can get red hot if to much unburned fuel goes through the exhaust system. It most likely works on high milage engines for the reasons staed before, wear and tear.

 

Personally like all additives, they are un needed on engines with less then 80K on them, and over that, its like chicken soup, it couldnt hurt, just DO NOT use too much, remeber less is more .

 

nipper

Nipper, what was the purpose of your post?

I didn't get it.

If you red carefully the stuff i quoted, you would see that the quote is about the catalist metals inside OXYGEN SENSOR and not catalytic converter.

[nipper]

The purpose of the catallytic converter link was to show that normally almost all the fuel (and in a brand new engine today) all the fuel is burned. If we truly were not burning all the fuel, catalytic converters would run hot, as they are designed to handle a very small amount of unburned hydrocarbons. It also explains the heart of the combustion process, the stochiometric ratio, which seems to be getting lost in all this.

An engine is an amazing thing. It is required to run perfectly at all loads and speeds for emissions and fuel economy. Some people's driving habits may actually be affected by the acetone, while others may not. i sometimes have a hard tiome explaing these things when its posts, instead of converstaions.

i dont buy the surface tension arguments. What everone is trying to do is add o2 for a more effecient burn. Unfortunitly (or thankfully) i am not a chemist.

If it works for you, thats fine. If it doesnt work for you, thats fine too.

Gas milage and effecincy tends to go down as a car ages. i dont know if anyone has seen a gas milage increase buy replacing fuel injectors that had high milage on them. The acetone may be aiding in the chemical process of combustion, since an older fuel injector is no longer capable of atomizing fuel as well as it did when new. This less effecient atomization may not show up anywhere (emissions or codes), but can show up over time as a loss in performance or gas milage. It would be like filling a 55 gallon drum one trip at a time. Not so noticble day to day but compard to when the engine was new very noticable. The acetone having a much lower vapor pressure (the ability to evaporate) is somehow helping the fuel burn in an older engine.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

nipper