Strandead Please Help!!!!

[CITRUSHARK]

If you do a search for CITRUSHARK, you can find out what I have discussed about my 87 gl 1.8 TBI.

 

My last post explained that the car stalled at the market.

Well today, it stalled out of town and will not start:banghead: . And now it's at an apartment complex and I have to either fix it tommorrow or tow it:-\ .

 

I pulled the line on the filter going to the throttle body, cranked the engine , and gas squirtted out of the fuel filter, so the pump seems to be working fine.

 

Then I took off the assembly going to the air filter and cranked the engine. the injector is not spraying any fuel at all.

 

Tommorrow I am going back with more tools. But I need to know 3 things...

 

1.) Do I need a noid tester to check the wires going to the injector? Or can I use a ohm/voltage meter to check the voltage. If so, What voltage should it be reading?

 

2.) Are there any other components that could cause the injector not to function?

 

3.) Is there a way to get the codes from my vehicle if the engine light does not work?

 

Any other information that I could get this eveing before I go to try fix the car tommorrow would be greatly appreciated. PLEASE HELP

 

 

CITRUSHARK

[85Sub4WD]

Ask and ye shall recieve

check here under EA82 (that's your engine)

SPFI=TBI

http://www.finleyweb.net/default.asp?id=142

this is an FSM (Factory Service Manual) for the 1989 model year, but yours should be almost identical it has COMPLETE troubleshooting details, testing proceedures for all components, and some performance specs

if you don't already have one, buy a multimeter at Wal-Mart - the best $15 you ever spent!

I think FI info is in the second part

of note, if you have a cruise control system, that can also cause probems - see my other post

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=40789

 

I will go ahead and put down some basics - you computer is located above your driver side kickpanel - remove the kickpanel (easy) and look at it - there is a small window with an LED on it - turn your ignition to the "ON" position and watch the LED - it should give 4 or 5 quick flashes, then trouble codes

the specifics on how to interpert the trouble codes are in the FSM

 

a (slightly) educated guess is that your crank angle sensor (IE distribuitor) has issues - your computer must be getting a signal that the engine is turning over before it will shoot fuel into the engine

 

one thing to be aware of is that you usually cannot see the fuel come out of the fuel injector (due to how fine a stream and how fast it comes out) - it is easier to smell it

 

your air flow meter MUST be connected/working for the engine to start (in some cases or run for any length of time in others)

 

Good Luck!!

[CITRUSHARK]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

 

 

I could not smell the fuel either, I looked real close, and stuck a small stick to see if it was damp from any fuel, but none. So I am almost positive there was no fuel in there

 

 

 

 

QUICK QUESTION IF U R STILL AROUND.

 

CAN U TELL ME WHAT IF ANY CONNECTORS i NEED TO CONNECT TO GET THE CODES TO FLASH. i AM A LITTLE CONFUSED AS TO THE SOME OF THE POSTS IVE READ THAT STATE THAT i NEED TO CONNECT SOME WIRES TO GET THE CODES.

 

PS SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS

Ask and ye shall recieve

check here under EA82 (that's your engine)

SPFI=TBI

http://www.finleyweb.net/default.asp?id=142

this is an FSM (Factory Service Manual) for the 1989 model year, but yours should be almost identical it has COMPLETE troubleshooting details, testing proceedures for all components, and some performance specs

if you don't already have one, buy a multimeter at Wal-Mart - the best $15 you ever spent!

I think FI info is in the second part

of note, if you have a cruise control system, that can also cause probems - see my other post

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=40789

 

I will go ahead and put down some basics - you computer is located above your driver side kickpanel - remove the kickpanel (easy) and look at it - there is a small window with an LED on it - turn your ignition to the "ON" position and watch the LED - it should give 4 or 5 quick flashes, then trouble codes

the specifics on how to interpert the trouble codes are in the FSM

 

a (slightly) educated guess is that your crank angle sensor (IE distribuitor) has issues - your computer must be getting a signal that the engine is turning over before it will shoot fuel into the engine

 

one thing to be aware of is that you usually cannot see the fuel come out of the fuel injector (due to how fine a stream and how fast it comes out) - it is easier to smell it

 

your air flow meter MUST be connected/working for the engine to start (in some cases or run for any length of time in others)

 

Good Luck!!

[GLCraig]

You know the ECU may not fire off the injector if the MAF is telling the the ECU that there is not any air going through it. Since you did the test with the air intake disconnected between the MAF and throttle body, there wouldn't be any air going through the MAF to begin with. Also have you check both Timing belts? If the one on the Drivers side is busted, the distributor will not turn and you won't get any spark.

[85Sub4WD]

sure - I have actually expierenced no difference in my ability to read codes with any connectors connected/unconnected

HOWEVER

the "proper" way to do it (if I recall correctally) is to plug the two green connectors together located near your winshield wiper motor (under the hood) - I think this can be done with the ignition on or off - then see what you get out of the computer (if it is anything different) - there is a specific (and still confusing) proceedure in the FSM (n the previous link) about the codes reading process there is an entire T-shooting table on "no start" conditions too - the cruise control problem is the only one not on it - I have found that generally the connectors only need to be connected if you have a minor problem - a more major problem (no start) should bring a trouble code reguardless of the condition of the green connectors

 

btw there is also a set of clear connectors (near the green ones) - they are used for clearing memory (so you don't have to pull a cable off the battery) - I think they also have some part in higher-level memory codes, but that is also vaguely explained in the FSM - those proceedures require the engine to be running anyway

 

btw - did the gas shoot out of the fuel filter? there is supposed to be ~40 psi behind it - you should have gotten a face full - if you didn't, I would suspect your fuel filter/pump/tank pickup

 

if you did not get any gas out of the injector, and your computer tells you all's fine, then you know it is either the T-belt, CAS, injector, computer, or fuel pressure regulator there are inspection plugs on the T-belt casing - there is detailed info about it in the FSM

 

Good Luck!!

 

GLCraigGT

Good point about T-belts - I have started an engine with the air intake boot off, and with the MAF totally disconnected; it should at least fire, possibly start, but it won't run for any length of time ~5 sec & really rough!!

[MilesFox]

bad distributor(crank angle sensor)

[CITRUSHARK]

Hello and thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread.

 

 

My car is still stuck in an apartment complex 40 miles from here:-\ . And this complex is real strickt about towing cars that don't belong there. I have gotten them to let the car stay there till now, and hopfully they will let is stay till monday.

 

 

Well I read the codes from the ECU(computer). The only code that I am getting, is code 14( Fuel Injector #1). So I called up all the major part stores. Some of them were telling me that it would cost me$400 to $600 for 1 injector. Of course I'm blown away by this, but 2 of them told me that it would be $53 dollars.

 

I asked to speak with the most experienced part person and got a regional manager. So he told me that he would get the part for me. The next day, I go over there and it's the wrong part. It's a multi-port injector instead of a TBI injector. I just can't understand how someone that has been in the parts business so long failed to understand that when it says multi-port injector,,, that it will not work for a TBI. I had to walk them through selecting Singleport injector and looking for it that way. Long story shorter; The two parts stores that showed 1 for $53 are saying that they absolutely cannot find, locate, or get the part that I need, even after pulling the number off the original part. No cross referencing, or anything.

 

While looking for the part, I also called the dealer:confused: and they said it would be around $400. So it looks like when I do find the part(injector) it;s going to cost around that much. And that is half as much as I payed for the whole car. I checked the price for a nissan injector, (87) and it costs $400 as well.

And everyone is saying it will take at least 3 days for the sooby part to arrive.

 

 

This site has been very helpfull, I am hoping that someone can help me locate a dead 86 or 87 sooby that I can get all the major electonical components from it. The MAF, TBI, ECU, AIR VALVE, Pressure Regulator, etc. CAN ANYONE HELP?

 

Although , the computer is only showing that 1 code, I am afraid that After I replace the Injector, the computer will show another code, like the MAF, etc.

So I am faced with spending more to fix this car than to just buy another 1.

 

 

I thought I should mention That if I put gas in the Throttle body, the car will fire up.

 

Also I did get a face full of fuel from the filter, so the pressure seems to be fine.

 

Thanks again everyone,

CITRUSHARK

 

bad distributor(crank angle sensor)

[john in KY]

I don't know anything about this injection system but on the MPFI system, one wire to the injector is always hot. It's my understanding the ECU makes and breaks the ground side of the injector to make it fire/pulse. I'm guessing your system does about the same. May want to check the injector wiring harness. One of the wires should be hot. Could be as simple as a blown fuse or blown fusible link.

 

Miles also brought up a good point. The ECU will not fire the injector if it does not receive a signal from the distributor. But I would first check/verify the injector is getting current flow.

[CITRUSHARK]

I have used a noid tester to check for cuurent to the injector and there is current.

I don't know anything about this injection system but on the MPFI system, one wire to the injector is always hot. It's my understanding the ECU makes and breaks the ground side of the injector to make it fire/pulse. I'm guessing your system does about the same. May want to check the injector wiring harness. One of the wires should be hot. Could be as simple as a blown fuse or blown fusible link.

 

Miles also brought up a good point. The ECU will not fire the injector if it does not receive a signal from the distributor. But I would first check/verify the injector is getting current flow.

[Cougar]

Citrushark,

 

Hang in there, we'll help you get it going.

 

You stated that you checked for power getting to the injector with a Noid tester and you got it to flash. Your next check should be to check the resistance of the injector with the connector removed from it. It sounds like you will find an open connection. I think the normal resistance should be around 12 ohms if I remember correctly. Let us know what you find out.

 

I would check for a used injector at a salvage yard or someone here may have one if you need it.

[CITRUSHARK]

Thanks Cougar, I'm tryin.

 

 

The Connector to the iinjector does not seem to be removable like multiprot ones. I would have to yank it off, which I don't think I'm supposed to. Bit I am really hopefull that someone will have or know of a 87, or 86 dead sooby that I can get the electronics from here. I am happy to pay them for their time and parts.

 

I live in a small town. The town that the car is stuck has a few places, but I called them and They do not have any soobys of those years.

Citrushark,

 

Hang in there, we'll help you get it going.

 

You stated that you checked for power getting to the injector with a Noid tester and you got it to flash. Your next check should be to check the resistance of the injector with the connector removed from it. It sounds like you will find an open connection. I think the normal resistance should be around 12 ohms if I remember correctly. Let us know what you find out.

 

I would check for a used injector at a salvage yard or someone here may have one if you need it.

[Cougar]

After thinking about the resistances again it may be that it is about 3-4 ohms of resistance. I'm pretty sure there is a connector to the injector but I haven't messed with one yet so I can't say for sure. You could try probing through the wires to it to check the resistance with the engine off.

[john in KY]

There has to be a connector. How can it be replaced if there is not? Checked an old FSM. The throttle body should have 2 red wires. One has a white stripe and the other black. I'm thinking the red/white wire is the 12v from the ECU and the red/black is the "ground" back to the ECU. The FSM states the unplugged throttle body should have between .5 and 2 ohms and it should be replaced if outside this range.

[calebz]

The connector for the injector on an SPFI car should be about 4-5 inches from where the wires come out of the injector (this is all from memory from when I replaced my injector on my 90 loyale about 2 years ago.

 

IIRC, I paid about $1.50 from the tacoma PAP for the injector.

[CITRUSHARK]

Yes The connector is replaced with the injector. You mentioned that you got one form Tacoma PAP. That is what I'm hoping I can do as well; Get one from someone here. Anyone?

The connector for the injector on an SPFI car should be about 4-5 inches from where the wires come out of the injector (this is all from memory from when I replaced my injector on my 90 loyale about 2 years ago.

 

IIRC, I paid about $1.50 from the tacoma PAP for the injector.

[Cougar]

To John in KY:

 

Thanks for the resistance specs of the injector. Does the manual show the ground connection for the injector going to an external resistor or ground connection, or is it just terminated inside the ECU?

[NuclearBacon]

Yes The connector is replaced with the injector. You mentioned that you got one form Tacoma PAP. That is what I'm hoping I can do as well; Get one from someone here. Anyone?

 

I'm in california... but at the PAP 20 miles from my house, theres over 10 SPFI EA82's... if you needed an injector, maybe i could swing out there and pick one out for you... the only thing is time. i dont know if that would do any good for you, since im in ....california.

 

let me know, and i'll could run out possibly tomorrow , definitly tuesday...

 

(and if you can wait, which it sounds like you cant, i'll DEFINITLY be there on friday, saturday and sunday... i have a few heads i need and i could snag you one.)

 

GOOD LUCK!

Luigi

[john in KY]

To John in KY:

 

Thanks for the resistance specs of the injector. Does the manual show the ground connection for the injector going to an external resistor or ground connection, or is it just terminated inside the ECU?

 

 

Grounded in the ECU.

[Cougar]

Grounded in the ECU.

 

Ok. Thanks again for the info John.

[oddcomp]

the injector is constantly powered thru a resistor block that limits the amount of amperage the injecter can pull when the ecu grounds out the injector to switch it open and closed

otherwise the injector wold pull to much current and burn out he injector driver fet /circuit inside the ecu

 

that being said has anyone tested the resistor block to make sure its not cracked or damaged and providing power?

and the injector should be located underneatha small cover located in the bore of the throttle body

your wires your looking to test if i remeber right from junkyard visits will be coming off the side of the throttlebody

2 of them one black the other.. not sure

 

the non black wire wire should have voltage with the key on

[Cougar]

Oddcomp,

 

I don't have a manual for an '87 model but my '88 model shows the termination for the SPFI injector to be internal to the ECU as JIK mentioned and I assume that the '87 is the same. I know my '88 MPFI had external resistors. The wire colors are Red/White and Red/Black as JIK mentioned.

[CITRUSHARK]

Thank you very much for your info. I looked everywhere, but could not find a resistor. With so many models being differnet I thought that mine might not have a resistor, like you and the manuals have stated. I need to know where the resisotr wires would be coming from. I have searched the whole engine compartment and the only ceramic looking item I could find was on the igntion side that came off some of the coil ciruitry. So if anyone can tell me if there is or is not a restotr for my vehicle, and what wires it would be connected to. That would be most helpful.

 

I have found the injector wires and they are 2 wires like you mentioned. I just have not found any wires holding a resistor, if there are any for my vehicle.

 

Thanks,

CITRUSHARK

the injector is constantly powered thru a resistor block that limits the amount of amperage the injecter can pull when the ecu grounds out the injector to switch it open and closed

otherwise the injector wold pull to much current and burn out he injector driver fet /circuit inside the ecu

 

that being said has anyone tested the resistor block to make sure its not cracked or damaged and providing power?

and the injector should be located underneatha small cover located in the bore of the throttle body

your wires your looking to test if i remeber right from junkyard visits will be coming off the side of the throttlebody

2 of them one black the other.. not sure

 

the non black wire wire should have voltage with the key on

[john in KY]

Some but not all the MPFI engines used a dropping resistor. As for as I know, and I didn't see one in the FSM diagram anywhere, you do not have a resistor. If you did it would be bolted on the RF strut tower, but it's not there so don't bother looking for it.

[Cougar]

Citrushark,

 

Have you measured the resistance of the injector yet?

[CITRUSHARK]

I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to post on this thread. But I still need some help.

Well the sooby is back at home. I located a complete throttle body. Come to find out, most states now have a state wide database for used part location, probably more than one. But I will have to leave that conversation for another post.

The reason is, there has been something done to this car by some idiot mechanic that caused the injector to go bad.

 

What he did was GROUND OUT THE NEGATIVE INJECTOR WIRE TO THE ENGINE:confused: . It is not supposed to be that way. Driving it home today, it started to act up again, and the ECU gave me the same code for the injector. I am quite certain that the injector has not been permanently damaged. The car will start with that ground wire from the idiot mechanic. When I disconnect that wire, it will not start. I have discovered that the ECU provides the ground for the injector. I have also traced the wiring diagram for the ECU that I have. The circuit for the injector in the ECU has a bad ground.

 

I am needing to locate 2 things.

 

1.) A wiring diagram that shows the complete details for the wires connecting to the ECU.(For 1987-88 SPFI Models) Example.(Red/white)[injector positive] pin 1...(red/Black)[injector negative] pin 2, and so on.

 

2.) pictures and or descriptions of the locations of all the grounds, or at least the ground locations for the ECU Injector circuitry.

 

Can Someone help me locate these two things?

 

Please Help,

 

CITRUSHARK,

Some but not all the MPFI engines used a dropping resistor. As for as I know, and I didn't see one in the FSM diagram anywhere, you do not have a resistor. If you did it would be bolted on the RF strut tower, but it's not there so don't bother looking for it.