'66 awd VW

[keltikrewser]

new member sayin' hi,

just letting you guys know i will probally be bugging the crap out of you for retrofitting tips. i know that putting a subaru engine in a bug is technically a transplat, but i plan on using the entire drive train as well, so im sure that some retro-custom-modifing will certainly be involved. i just recently got into subarus, bought a '89 xt-6 for $500 as a winter beater and fell in love. anyways the xt's wheel base is about 1/4" -1/2" off from the bug so i was planning on using that as a starting point, however i was hoping to go with some sticky suspension (2.5rs/wrx)and some high horsepower provided buy outback eventuallly. right now i'd just like to get drive line and suspension setup and work out the bugs. anyways nice to be aboard, hope my ignorance won't be too anoying:banghead:

 

p.s. i live near a rather large subaru specific salvage yard, so if i can't add knowledge maybe i can help find some parts:D

[baccaruda]

wow. i see lots of welding and custom axles in your future. stock up on headache medicine too

 

(sounds cool, though, good luck)

[All_talk]

I'm a fellow VW guy and am also hatching plans for a Subie powered AWD VW, a couple of things to note right off the start...

 

What drive layout are you going with? If you plan to use the Subaru transaxel then I assume it will be front engine? If its a Beetle the engine is gonna hang WAY out the front, might work in a Ghia or type III or IV. If you were hoping for a rear engine layout, like many before, you will be disappointed to learn that the Subaru diff can NOT be flipped like the VW unit, which will yield 5 speeds reverse, one forward. A mid engine/rear wheel drive setup could be done with a 2WD Subie trans. My hopeful version will be mid-engined with a modified AWD trans to feed a drive shaft forward along side the trans/engine to a Nissan truck front diff, I'm still early in the engineering phase on this one.

 

baccaruda is dead on the axel issue, wheel base isn't the problem (easily changed with a custom length driveshaft), wheel track is gonna be the problem. The XT/GL stuff is about 4 inches to wide (outside to outside with stock wheels), wide fiberglass fenders could be a solution if you like that look (I dont). The earlier EA81 Subie axels may get you very close, but I dont have a confirmed width on that setup.

 

Just my first thoughts, I'll be happy to share what I've learned to this point.

 

Gary

 

BTW, my (someday) project will use a Turbo Legacy drivetrain tucked under my '57 Oval.

[Tbird Man]

you could look into a porshe carrera 4 tranny.

[shiningstar76]

the pinion ring cant be flipped? Will one out of a VW fit?

[baccaruda]

why can't you flip the suabru rear differential? you could put the cover and rear mount on upside down and adjust the amount of gear oil it would take.. unless the different amount of oil would present too much resistance for the gears?

[NorthWet]

why can't you flip the suabru rear differential?...?

I believe that the context referred to the transaxles ring and pinion.

[All_talk]

No the ring gear in the Subaru transaxle cannot be flipped and no the VW parts will not fit. The VW boxes use a spiral bevel gear set which has the pinion shaft on center of the axle, the Subaru (and most other cars) use a Hypoid type gear set, similar to the spiral bevel but the pinion shaft runs below the center line of the axle.

 

Gary

 

P.S. Yes, you can run the rear diff upside down (its been done), but the higher fluid level required will add some drag and could cause some issues with oil foaming.

[Nug]

Regular 'ol RWD bugs with a lotta power are pretty damn fun!

[keltikrewser]

front engine awd is the plan. however all my measurements to date have been done by scale off of pictures i have(my bug is about 2hrs away in storage right now) it looks like its going to be an extreamly tight fit at best, from my scale measurements i've got right aroung 20" from the center of the front hubs to the nose of the bug. im planning on a tube chassis with a one piece glass frontend so i should be able to use almost all of that space. my xt is about 24" from the center of the front hubs to the front of the engine. im planing on using either a 2.2 or 1.8 which should be shorter than the 6cyl? right? if anyone could possibly check that for me that would be awesome:D i don't know any one localy with a 4cyl and Cindy's doesn't like to let you walk around:banghead: so the length of the 4 cyl is going to determine how far forward im going to have to get the front hubs. i was thinking of just utilizing the ability of the cv's and running the axels forward slighty, but thats going to limit my turning ability. lately ive been playing with the idea of running some sort of gear reduction box to bump the axels forward, which would also let me run smaller tires in the front. anyway right now the whole thing is pretty much a big mess in head and some scribbles on paper until i can get my car up to the house, so ive got plenty of time to come up with hair brain ideas.

[All_talk]

Sounds like you have run through some of the same ideas that I have, I was considering using old bus reduction boxes to reverse the rotation of the axles so I could use the Subie trans in a rear engine set up. I took a good look at the front engine option and I don’t think there is any good way its gonna fit in a bug. I hate to suggest this but if front engine AWD is what you really want you might have better luck with one of the transverse AWD drivetrains like the newer VW or DSM.

Gary

[keltikrewser]

i actually got this i dea when i was flipping through an old issue of sport compact magazine. a guy had built a gen 4 golf with a newer audi quattro drive train, i think it was a 2.3L or something like that, he was running about 45psi of boost and getting some where around 900 bhp if i remember right. i figured if he could make that work than i've got a shot at shoving a 2.2 into the front of my bug. i guess only time will tell, like i said until i actually get my car up to my house i might as well be designing the next spaceship 1til later

ryan

[mattyw]

greetings from Oz,

 

a suby transplant into a VW sounds great, but yeah, I can see the issues with the front mounting of the engine along with the awd concept. Major fabrication work either way. An Audi into Golf project would be a simpler proposition, as both are transverse mount, and both already have the engine in the front. I rekon a mid mount, rear wheel drive is a more feasible project, but I can understand the desire for four wheel drive. I have an old rear engine Renault for a bush basher which I am thinking doing a mid mount job on.

good luck.

[Tbird Man]

Anyone else have any input on my suggestion of a carrera 4 tranny?

It is rear engine AWD and should work if you have the money, any idea on how much one would run price wise?

[All_talk]

Anyone else have any input on my suggestion of a carrera 4 tranny?

It is rear engine AWD and should work if you have the money, any idea on how much one would run price wise?

 

Its a great idea, but I dont know anybody messin around with old Vee Wees(or old Subes) that could afford one of them.

 

Gary

[Tbird Man]

Ok, how about this. It will take alot of fabrication but a gear box of sorts using possibily truck spider gears to reverse the rotation on the diff outputs?

[All_talk]

The basic idea seems sound, you'd need one for each output (4) which is a lot of extra gearing and not terribly efficient. You could cut it down to 3 units by using one on the drive shaft to the front and running a truck front diff (or flipped subie rear diff). Biggest problem I can see with this and the VW app is the added track width required to fit the "reverse boxes", they would add at least 8" to the transaxle width (and the track width is already 4" to wide). You could use custom shorten axels ($$$), but this would require a reduction in suspension travel to keep the CV angles in check. These same concerns are the reason I dropped the VW reduction box idea.

 

There are a lot of ways to go at this problem, its just a matter of finding something efficient and practical (affordable).

 

Gary

[Zefy]

ok i'm just shooting my idea off into the wind here so i'm most likely wrong...

 

but what if you had the engine rear mounted then flipped the rear diff(which would now be at the front) then here is the hard part...

 

what if you attached a gear set to the stub sticking out of the trans then added a new stub(attached to the new gear set) that would attach to the axle?

 

so 2 gears would be involved... one attached to the stub on the trans then the other attached to the new stub beside the old one... does this make sense??? i can draw a pic if need be...(although i can't draw worth sh*t)

 

so then with that you have a completely reversed drivetrain with 5 forward gears and 1 reverse...

[YellowSub]

All the advice is really nice, but did no one see this!?!?

 

 

I WANT TO LIVE NEAR A SUBY SALVAGE YARD.

[All_talk]

Yep, Greg you're thinking right (this is the basic idea I looked at with using the old VW bus reduction boxes). But this idea suffers from the same issues of cost, complexity and size. Most of us that would like to do something like this could live with the added complexity and could work around a lot of the packaging issues... but the cost is a killer. Even without considering engineering costs, a conservative estimate for a couple of gearboxes like this would be about $1500, and that's if you have a buddy who will give you a great deal on the machine work. If this project was given to me at work, total costs would probably top $5000.

 

Gary

 

 

ok i'm just shooting my idea off into the wind here so i'm most likely wrong...

 

but what if you had the engine rear mounted then flipped the rear diff(which would now be at the front) then here is the hard part...

 

what if you attached a gear set to the stub sticking out of the trans then added a new stub(attached to the new gear set) that would attach to the axle?

 

so 2 gears would be involved... one attached to the stub on the trans then the other attached to the new stub beside the old one... does this make sense??? i can draw a pic if need be...(although i can't draw worth sh*t)

 

so then with that you have a completely reversed drivetrain with 5 forward gears and 1 reverse...

[keltikrewser]

does anyone know where i might be able to find some scaled technical drawings of a subie drive train, i've been looking and can't seam to find any

[nipper]

Here is some information from somone who has been thinking about it:

 

http://www.statikdesign.com/scratchbuilt/drivetrain/awd.html

 

Someone who may know more

 

http://www.kennedyeng.com/

 

Picture of an H-6

http://www.geocities.com/pepesvx/e1.html

 

This site looks like its in russian but the pics arent

 

AND WOHOO!

http://www.carsoft.ru/avtorepair/subaru.html

 

scroll down there are assembly pics of some of the parts (amazing what you can find on the net)

 

 

A porsche with a sooby engine

 

http://www.etischer.com/914xt.html

 

Dont know if this helps at all

 

but I do want to hear more about this project

 

nipper

[mikie]

Have you considered using an auto box ? The power flow thru the legacy(/liberty) 1989-1996 auto transmission goes like this:

Engine->Torque-converter->Automatic gearset... now we have torque at the back of the box. here it splits, and drives the front wheels via 2 gears and a shaft that runs to the front of the box where the front diff is, and the rear wheels via a clutchpack. The front crownwheel and pinion is 'inside-out' with the crownwheel facing outwards, away from the spider gears and the pinion shaft offset right over to the side so it can run back past the auto gearset.

 

Anyway, if you replace those 2 gears with a chain, you reverse direction. Flip the front diff or use one with opposite rotation and you have the rear engine-awd layout, with permanent rwd and optional 4wd to boot. I drew a picture to help explain how this trans works, cos im not good with explanations.

 

Another option would be subaru running gear with a Honda engine, until recently Honda engines ran counter-clockwise, including the 1600, 1800 and 2200cc vtec ones.

 

[keltikrewser]

wonder if someone could do me a favor? any chance i could get an approximate measurement on a 1.8L or 2.2L from the center of the hub to the front of the engine(farthest forward point of the belts/pulleys) i've been tying to get out to cindy's to see if they'll let me wonder around but i haven't had a chance. if someone could grab this distance for me that would be awesome.

 

i also found that article about that AWD golf, here's their web site

 

http://www.dahlbackracing.se/english/main.asp

 

if you look at the picture of the underside of the front susp. it looks like he did what i was talking about with front cv's running them forward a little, if the messurements that i've worked off scaled drawings are correct i should only need to push the front hubs forward a couple of inches. if that VW can hold 900 hp like that i'm thinkin' 3-400hp shouldn't be a problem. also, that Audi 5 cyl is running down the center like it should be:grin:

[keltikrewser]

new link that actually shows you what i was saying about those front axels

 

http://dahlbackracing.se/english/projekt/golf_rs1.html

 

 

also what engines will work with the tranny in my XT6? trying to figure out if i want to use my XT as a donor or try and get my hands on something else, like a mid 90's impreza or legacy, any thoughts?

 

thanks ryan