Brand new Forester - starting problem :-(

[Tobers]

Hi - first post from a new Subaru owner.

 

I've got a brand new Forester 2 litre non-turbo auto. Now 2 weeks old with 1600 miles on it already (nice trip up to Scotland & back).

 

A couple of days ago, when starting from cold, it wouldn't start immediately as it usually does. It cranks over for about 8-10 seconds before firing, and then idles at about 1500rpm. After a quick blip of the throttle and the revs drop back down to idle at a more regular 800rpm or so.

 

It starts immediately when warm - the problem only happens when left for 3-4 hours or more.

 

The dealer has had a look at it. No error codes listed. He's replaced the spark plugs with a different brand (NGK to Champion or vice versa). The problem still persists.

 

I'll be giving the car back to the dealer for 2-3 days for them to look into it in more depth next week, but in the meantime I'm interested in what this might be and if I can tweak something quickly to sort it out.

 

My first reaction is that it's an idle control valve that's stuck a bit open, and is released when the throttle is pressed.

 

Any help gratefully received.

 

Cheers

 

Andy

[Subie Gal]

my first thought is actually bad gas.

 

 

if there are no CEL's

no obvious explanations

dont rule this one out.

 

where did you fuel up last?

 

do you always fuel up at the same station(s)?

 

Jamie

[Tobers]

Hmm - thanks for that. I'll put some Shell Optimax or similar into it tonight and see what happens. I've just been up & down the country (UK) so not filled up in the same place twice yet.

 

Any other ideas?

 

 

 

my first thought is actually bad gas.

 

 

if there are no CEL's

no obvious explanations

dont rule this one out.

 

where did you fuel up last?

 

do you always fuel up at the same station(s)?

 

Jamie

[Tobers]

Filled it up with a fresh tank.

 

Also found that the throttle cable was a little bit too tight, so loosened it off a tad in order for the throttle actuator arm to rest on the stop properly. I reckoned this could have been causing the car to start as if you had your foot slightly on the accelerator pedal, confusing everything.

 

However, neither has had any effect. When starting from cold, it's still churning on the starter motor for about 8-10 secs before firing, and when it has fired it seems to be running on 3 cylinders for a short time (say 10 secs or until I prod the throttle).

[mtsmiths]

Hi - first post from a new Subaru owner.

 

I've got a brand new Forester 2 litre non-turbo auto. Now 2 weeks old with 1600 miles on it already ... Cheers

 

Andy

 

And YOU are stressing about this why? Take the car back to the dealer and raise bloody hell. This is a BRAND NEW car! Demand that they give you a loaner and keep the Forester until they either fix it or give up, give you a new replacement and pawn this one off on someone else.

 

No more mister niceguy Andy, don't take intimidation (or idiocy) from a dealer, give'em hell, ... you have nothing to fear but fear itself!

[Tobers]

Yep - that's the plan. It's more out of curiosity than anything else.

 

Anyway, its back to the dealer tomorrow with a "fix it by next week or give me a refund" ultimatum

[mtsmiths]

Yep - that's the plan. It's more out of curiosity than anything else.

 

Anyway, its back to the dealer tomorrow with a "fix it by next week or give me a refund" ultimatum

 

Be sure to get back to us with the response. If nothing else it should be interesting to compare the dealers in 'Jolly Old' with our colonial representatives.

[Tobers]

Well, it's been in the dealer's workshop all day today. The day started with me delivering the car to them and talking very nicely to the service man. I then gave him a firmly worded letter stating they had to permanently fix it in 7 days or give me a refund/replacement (I was secretly hoping it wouldn't be fixed and I'd get a 2.5 Turbo ).

 

I had really excellent service from the dealer who was very very concerned about it and kept me well informed of progress.

 

They problem appears to be fixed. They reset the engine management system, upped the idle speed 100rpm to 850rpm, cleaned the inlet tract, checked the air filter etc etc. and delivered the car back to me 2 hours ago.

 

Just tried starting it and it sprang into action as you'd expect it to. No more churning and picking up on 2 then 3 then 4 cylinders.

 

I have a feeling that I actually half-fixed the problem myself though. I reckon that the throttle cable loosening trick made a difference, but that the engine management memory needed clearing to "forget" the old incorrect position. Could all be nonsense though.

 

Anyway, on first impressions it looks like its sorted.

 

By the way, it is lovely to drive. Had a Volvo V70 before the Forester and the Forester is like a go-kart by comparison. It handles really well round corners compared to the Volvo's battleship-like wallowing.

 

Cheers all.

 

Andy

[Setright]

Glad it's back to normal.

 

Is that the new 2.0 liter? With 160bhp?

 

By the way, it's normal for Subaru's to crank for longer when cold before firing. The idea is to get oil circulating before the engine fires. Quite cool, really. The McLaren F1 does this too :-)

 

Of course, 8-10 seconds is excessive!

[Tobers]

Gaaahhggg!

 

The problem has returned. I've informed the dealer that I'm going to reject the car.

 

Unfortunately, they are now making suggestions that because the car eventually does start, it is performing its function so is "fit for purpose". Clearly this is nonsense, but I'm now after any Subary specs or technical info which I can use to show what the starting performance of the car should be. I want to kill any objections of their before they get serious.

 

Can anyone help with any such docs?

 

Thanks

[Setright]

Crikey!

 

Well, first off listen to this:

 

http://www.geocities.com/vik2r/Sube/mp3/warmstart.mp3

 

 

That's my previous Subaru, a 1990 Legacy with the famous EJ22 engine. The engine is already warm, so the cranking is quite short, but you can still make it out. This rather whiny sound is the sound any newer Subaru makes when starting. When cold, it'll last a max of two seconds. But that's when it's freezing, and bear in mind that even "just" a single second seems like ages when you are waiting for the engine to fire.

 

Is your car making a different noise?

 

 

I will hunt for tech docs and maybe make a recording of my present car starting cold.

[Cougar]

First off, if they put Champion plugs in there I would get the NGK's back in there. They would be the last plugs I would want in the engine.

 

I'm not sure but there may be a cold start valve on the engine. If there is, I would check that. I would also make sure the coolant sensor is providing the correct resistance to the ECU for the temperature of the cold coolant. Unfortunately I don't know how much change there is to the new engines.

[mtsmiths]

So, show up at the dealer BEFORE they open. Then INSIST that they take you out and start every brand new Subaru on the lot, and time each one, writing down the vehicle and time-to-start.

 

If they all crank eight to ten seconds, say "I'm sorry, you seem to be correct", if they all start 'instantly' (as I suspect they will), ask them to please repeat the 'normal' statement in light of the just demonstrated ad hoc data ...

 

I've never had a Subaru that was running any where like normal crank for more than a second or three, and that includes models (five cars) from 1978 to 2000, and temperatures from 110F to minus 27F.

 

Normal me arse.

[mwatt]

Gaaahhggg!

 

The problem has returned. I've informed the dealer that I'm going to reject the car.

 

Unfortunately, they are now making suggestions that because the car eventually does start, it is performing its function so is "fit for purpose". Clearly this is nonsense, but I'm now after any Subary specs or technical info which I can use to show what the starting performance of the car should be. I want to kill any objections of their before they get serious.

 

Can anyone help with any such docs?

 

Thanks

 

I wonder if the fuel rails are holding fuel pressure while the vehicle is parked for an extended period? If they don't, you'll have to crank the hell out of the engine before it will "fire up". If this extended-crank problem is still an issue, when the vehicle has been sitting overnight, try this: Turn the key to the "on" position for 20-30 seconds and just sit there BEFORE attempting to crank the engine, then try cranking it. Does it then start easily? If so, something's not holding fuel pressure---like the fuel pressure regulator, for example. (leaving the key in the "on" position before cranking allows the fuel pump to re-pressurize the lines and rails, which it normally should not have to do after an overnight sit).

[frag]

I wonder if the fuel rails are holding fuel pressure while the vehicle is parked for an extended period? If they don't, you'll have to crank the hell out of the engine before it will "fire up". If this extended-crank problem is still an issue, when the vehicle has been sitting overnight, turn the key to the "on" position for 20-30 seconds BEFORE attempting to crank the engine, then try cranking it. Does it then start easily? If so, something's not holding fuel pressure---like the fuel pressure regulator, for example.

 

Good idea mwatt, but having a fuel pressure gauge on my car, I know that there is no pressure left in the fuel system in the morning (in fact it takes 2-3 hours at most to dissipate). Even if there is no pressure left in the system my car starts normally.

[Cougar]

Good point Mwatt.

[mwatt]

Good idea mwatt, but having a fuel pressure gauge on my car, I know that there is no pressure left in the fuel system in the morning (in fact it takes 2-3 hours at most to dissipate). Even if there is no pressure left in the system my car starts normally.

 

Well, you've got me there---- I've always been under the impression that any multi-port injected engine has to have some fuel pressure in the rails if one expects the injectors to spray immediately upon cranking the engine?

 

I just thought of something else: now, this is from my previous experience at the GM dealer, so it may not apply here----but what about the fuel pump or the fuel pump relay? I remember on late 80's and early 90's vintage GM vehicles, when the fuel pump relay failed, the fuel pump would not work until the oil pressure sensor was able to "see" engine oil pressure after extended cranking, and once the oil pressure sensor "saw" oil pressure, the ECM would turn on the fuel pump. Just a thought..........

[Tobers]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies folks.

 

Setright - nope, it doesn't sound like that I'm afraid. When starting from "luke-warm" i.e. 30-60 mins after a drive during which it got up to full operating temperature, it cranks for 5-10 secs, then fires on maybe 2, then climbs to 3 then 4 cylinders. It'll then idle at approx 1500rpm before stepping down to approx 900rpm over a period of 3 minutes. 5 secs is a long time for a modern fuel-injected car to crank before firing - more like 1-2 secs is the norm.

 

mwatt - I've tried waiting a while before cranking to allow the fuel pressure to build, but no change to the starting performance when "luke warm".

 

Cougar - they changed the plugs to NGKs - first thing that they tried.

 

mtsmiths - that's just what I did this afternoon. Into the dealer, and sat with the service manager for about 30 mins of very articulate reasoned discussion. He was attempting to suggest it was a "glitch" and that the car did actually start so was fulfilling its purpose. I killed that promptly by saying that, had it been delivered with a big dent in the roof it would still convey people from A to B, but would warrant rejection due to the dent. The starting problem is no different to a dent in my view (and English law's view too).

 

I had also counted the number of Subarus on his forecourt before going in, and used exactly the line you suggested. I asked him if he'd like to go out and start all 19 of them and see which of them had the same problem. Not much leaping from his seat to partake in that one!

 

So, it's back in tomorrow. I haven't rejected it just yet as they have a senior guru from Subaru UK technical dept coming down to look at it. I've told them they've got 1 more chance to fix it.

 

I reckon it's a temperature related thing or pos. the idle control valve - probably a simple fix, but lets see. Will keep you all posted.

 

Cheers!

[Olnick]

Good on ya' Tobers. I love the roof dent analogy. Stick to your guns--and keep us posted.

[Setright]

Yes Tobers, we're all here silently cheering for you

 

 

 

mwatt, I wish I had made that fuel pressure suggestion. In fact, every morning I turn the key to on and wait for the sound of a busy fuel pump to stop before I crank.

 

Well, okay I admit it, I always pause at the "on" position, kinda like to let the ECU wake and smell the sensors before I ask for cranking.

[frag]

Well, you've got me there---- I've always been under the impression that any multi-port injected engine has to have some fuel pressure in the rails if one expects the injectors to spray immediately upon cranking the engine?

 

Here's what I think is happening mwatt.

1) The residual pressure is probably lost either at the injectors, at the fuel pressure regulator or at the pump's check valve OR a little bit at some or at everyone of these places. I dont think that at anyone of these places an absolutely tight seal is made.

2) So there's no pressure in the morning. Can't argue with the gauge on this.

3) On a sound system (no leaking hoses, etc.), I think it's reasonnable to think that fuel stops to leak (at any of the points mentioned) when the pressure reaches zero. If the seals are not absolutely tight, they're tight enough to hold fuel at zero pressure.

4) So if the fuel lines are still full of fuel (even at zero pressure) when one starts in the morning, the fuel system can return almost intantly to normal pressure the moment the pump starts.

The fact is that with zero pressure in the system, and at the same engine temperature there is no difference in the time my engine takes to start between turning the ignition to "start" immediately or waiting a few seconds at "ON".

That's with my car (every reason to believe it's standard), YMMV.

I hope this can contribute to clarify things on that subject.

[Tobers]

Hi chaps,

 

Here's an update. The car was in the dealer all last week. A top Subaru UK tech came down to see it and made a number of recommendations for fixes, which the dealer then implemented.

 

The thing that fixed it was the replacement of the injectors. Looks like there was a sticky injector (or maybe more than one of them) which was either leaking fuel into the inlet tract, or not squirting the correct amount in at the right times. The car now runs like a dream - starts on the button and is very smooth, idles properly etc.

 

Other things that were done before the injectors were replaced included the crankshaft position sensor being replaced, and the ECU being "zapped" and reprogrammed (neccessited the ignition keys being recoded). Only when the injectors were replaced did the problem go away.

 

Superb service from the dealer. The service manager personally worked on the car and tested it several times a day throughout last week, and kept me personally updated twice a day. I think the strong position I took at the start of the proceedings really made a difference - dont mess with me Mr Dealer!

 

Thanks for all your help everyone!

 

Andy

[Cougar]

Thanks for the update Andy. Glad things ended well for you.