93 Loyale Wagon - newbie - need help please!

[ZGLoyale]

Hi all,

 

I'm a true newbie to the Subaru world. I just picked up a 93 Loyale Wagon yesterday up near Denver and my fiance and I took to it right away. Lots of character and room and enough comfort - not to mention it had (relatively) low miles - 85,000.

 

I have lots of questions, but the main one is: what should I look for/have done before I head out on a 2,000 mile trip from Colorado to back east? I want to make sure this will get me there and back. Here are problems I know about:

 

-Tranny (auto 3spd) is a little rough on shifting. Is this normal or should I be worried?

- CV on the left side clicks only when turning hard to the left

- Timing belt has NOT been replaced - does it need to be with this mileage?

- The idle is rough - RPMs fluctuate and the car has a low vibration, again is this normal?

- The "Check Engine" light is on - was told by the PO that it was the "purge cylinder"???? Is this something I should replace/checkout/worry about??

- seems to rev at 4000 rpm on the highway (65-70mph), isn't that high? Or normal?

 

Anything else? We're leaving Sunday (hopefully) so any and all help is truly appreciated! Sorry for all the newbie questions...

 

Thanks in advance and look forward to joining the discussions!!!!

Cheers,

 

Kevin Cobb

Aspen, CO

93 Loyale Wagon

77 FJ40 2F

[MorganM]

3AT: Sounds like it's had better days. Check the fluid and hope she holds

 

CV: Clicking is fine. Don't crank the wheel all the way and go easy on the throttle if you do have to make a very sharp turn. Otherwise it will be fine till you get around to changing the axle.

 

Timing bet: I'd be more worried about the tranny Again get to it when you have time and have read up on how to change them (yes, them, two the suckers!)

 

Rough idle: Hopefully just needs a tune up. Spark plugs and an air filter can do wonders. Might be something you could do before you go; plugs, wires, cap, rotor, air filter, PCV valve... that would be a full afternoon of fun in the sun.

 

Check Engine Light (CEL): http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/USRM2/mick-usrm/electrical/ecucodes.html

 

Good luck and welcome

[ZGLoyale]

Thanks for the help! Yes, I know the tranny sounds bad - I'm crossing my fingers! :-\ I'm taking it to the local Subaru shop tomorrow - we'll see.

 

What about the RPMs? Going on the highway, seemed like I was really around 4000 the whole time. From my searching here, that seems high - can that be fixed?

 

Anything else I should be on the lookout for? I guess one just has to assume that nothing has been done..sad...

 

Thanks again for the help! Will let you know the diagnosis when I hear -

cheers,

Kevin

 

3AT: Sounds like it's had better days. Check the fluid and hope she holds

 

CV: Clicking is fine. Don't crank the wheel all the way and go easy on the throttle if you do have to make a very sharp turn. Otherwise it will be fine till you get around to changing the axle.

 

Timing bet: I'd be more worried about the tranny Again get to it when you have time and have read up on how to change them (yes, them, two the suckers!)

 

Rough idle: Hopefully just needs a tune up. Spark plugs and an air filter can do wonders. Might be something you could do before you go; plugs, wires, cap, rotor, air filter, PCV valve... that would be a full afternoon of fun in the sun.

 

Check Engine Light (CEL): http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/USRM2/mick-usrm/electrical/ecucodes.html

 

Good luck and welcome

[ogiesdad]

I bought a '93 Loyale sedan back in June and yes, the rpm's run about 4000 at 70 mph, but that's the 3AT for you--no overdrive. Fortunately, the little car doesn't mind, and feels pretty solid at speed. Just turn up the stereo!

[NorthWet]

I don't think that the 3AT tranny is as bad as others make it sound. Most people here just have no use for an utomatic transmission. I have brought a couple "back from the dead" with just some fresh fluid, a cleaned governor assembly, and maybe a cleaned valve body. Don't worry too much about it, unless you are seeing a mixing of ATF and gear oil. (ATF in the diff, or diff oil in the tranny.)

[ZGLoyale]

Thanks for the responses! Ok, here's the latest: I took it into the dealer and they confirmed a few things, added a few others. They are going to do a full 90,000 mile check up which I believe includes all fluids, tune up, etc. They will also replace the two timing belts and the "check engine light" indicated a bad purge solenoid and egr valve(?). They will replace the purge solenoid but they don't have the part for the egr - said I don't need it right away. They are also going to replace the axle. All this ain't cheap - $1800!! Ugh...but here's what they're NOT doing that I need advice on:

 

-The tranny - they said they would just replace the fluid. No other service was talked about. They said the rough shifting was "due to age"- do I think that's the truth? Should I ask for more? What normally goes into "tranny service"?

 

Seems like a lot of money - more than the estimate and more than I was expecting, but maybe it's expected on a vehicle of this age? Anyway, let me know any thoughts/opinions.

 

Many thanks in advance!

Kevin

[erikvr]

Thanks for the help! Yes, I know the tranny sounds bad - I'm crossing my fingers! :-\ I'm taking it to the local Subaru shop tomorrow - we'll see.

 

What about the RPMs? Going on the highway, seemed like I was really around 4000 the whole time. From my searching here, that seems high - can that be fixed?

 

Anything else I should be on the lookout for? I guess one just has to assume that nothing has been done..sad...

 

Thanks again for the help! Will let you know the diagnosis when I hear -

cheers,

Kevin

 

If you are going to change the timing belts, do yourself a favor while you (or mechanic) are in there and get the related things done. This way you only pay for the major labor to get there only once.

 

OIL SEALS: Have the mechanic change the front oil seal and the two cam O rings. They are right there and this only takes a little time. These cars are famous for leaking oil, so change these seals every time you change your belts. It's cheap, easy and you are there anyway.

 

TIMING BELTS: People on this site swear that the timing belts you get from the dealership can last up to 100k miles (versus under 50-60k for OEM). ALSO, fyi....the nice thing about subies is that you can drive your car until you break a timing belt with no worries. It doesn't ruin the engine, just leaves you stranded.

 

WATER PUMP: As a preventative measure, I would also pony up $50 plus a tad bit of labor for a new (not rebuilt) water pump. If you get near the 100k miles out of those factory belts, your water pump will no doubt fail before then and you will be paying all that labor all over again.

[thealleyboy]

All the advice above is excellent.

If you must have a mechanic do all this, I agree that you go all the way and do the additional items. A cooling system overhaul may be on the horizon, as well. Maybe before the long trip (?)

With the low miles you have on that A/T, you may want to consider a "transmission fluid replacement" procedure. Changing trans fluid on an older A/T can be risky, but if it's sucessful it could help the rough shifting.

AT's are dogs as far as RPMs, but you may want to play around with the timing to see if you can hit the right spot. If it is set to specs, it will do better on gas - at the expense of accelarating power. Myself, I would bump it up until it starts pinging...

good luck, John

[Numbchux]

the 3AT's aren't horrible, as long as you don't mind the high rpm's at freeway speed, and the crappy mileage as a result...and don't even think about towing anything!

 

we towed our little utility trailer up and back to our lake cabin (about 2.5 hours, one way) 3 or 4 times with a good load on it, and the last time, it burned up 3rd gear, 120,xxx miles, and time for a new tranny...

 

well, I'm converting it to a 5speed, and D/R 4wd, sometime...

 

and the other maintenence stuff....well, it's pretty well covered.

[ZGLoyale]

If you are going to change the timing belts, do yourself a favor while you (or mechanic) are in there and get the related things done. This way you only pay for the major labor to get there only once.

 

OIL SEALS: Have the mechanic change the front oil seal and the two cam O rings. They are right there and this only takes a little time. These cars are famous for leaking oil, so change these seals every time you change your belts. It's cheap, easy and you are there anyway.

 

TIMING BELTS: People on this site swear that the timing belts you get from the dealership can last up to 100k miles (versus under 50-60k for OEM). ALSO, fyi....the nice thing about subies is that you can drive your car until you break a timing belt with no worries. It doesn't ruin the engine, just leaves you stranded.

 

WATER PUMP: As a preventative measure, I would also pony up $50 plus a tad bit of labor for a new (not rebuilt) water pump. If you get near the 100k miles out of those factory belts, your water pump will no doubt fail before then and you will be paying all that labor all over again.

 

Well, called the dealership again to confirm these items you recommended. The water pump will be done and they will be doing the two timing belts. But they said they won't be doing the oil/cam seals since "it increases compression in other areas of the engine - possibly leading to a blowout in another area. The seals looked good and it's recommended to do all the engine seals at once when you do the whole engine." Um, true??

 

Also, are there other transmissions (Auto) that people swap into these? Again, sorry for the newbie questions...I'm just learning as I go...thanks again!

 

This is a great board - similar to the Cruiser boards I subscribe to as well!

Kevin

[NorthWet]

The Dealer's comments about the seals sounds a little... ummmm... off. OK, changing any seal can keep it from leaking there so it might potentially leak more from somewhere else, but realistically, the "compression" is just internal case pressure which should be dealt with by a properly functioning PCV system. (Please note my "properly functioning", and think about making sure yours is in good working order.) Basically, I think the Dealer's comments are close to BS, certainly self-serving, and probably CYAF.

 

Regarding your tranny, what do you condsider "rough shifting"? Hard/firm gear-to-gear shifts? Not wanting to shift at right RPMS? Not wanting to shift into 3rd when in Drive?

[ZGLoyale]

The Dealer's comments about the seals sounds a little... ummmm... off. OK, changing any seal can keep it from leaking there so it might potentially leak more from somewhere else, but realistically, the "compression" is just internal case pressure which should be dealt with by a properly functioning PCV system. (Please note my "properly functioning", and think about making sure yours is in good working order.) Basically, I think the Dealer's comments are close to BS, certainly self-serving, and probably CYAF.

 

Regarding your tranny, what do you condsider "rough shifting"? Hard/firm gear-to-gear shifts? Not wanting to shift at right RPMS? Not wanting to shift into 3rd when in Drive?

 

I'm glad that you're thinking the same way I am...regarding the dealer. I ended up with a quite sizeable bill, and many of the same problems remain - although he did change the timing belts, other belts, flushed the whole system - brakes, coolant, diffs - but I didn't understand when they DIDN'T replace the purge solenoid and/or the egr valve which was apparently causing the "check engine" light to go on. He said I didn't need it - ok. But he also said that if he replaced ALL the engine seals, a year from now, I would still be leaking oil. He just said to keep watching the oil - add when necessary, and "drive the hell out of it!" That was (at least) funny.

 

The tranny shifting that worries me is that is seems to jump into the next gear rather hard. Not really smooth at all. Especially when you let up on the gas a bit. I'm unsure about what RPMs it should be shifting at - I'll look next time. But it's just that bumping, or surging, that makes me think the timing is off a bit. I dunno - I'm a one banana mechanic...and that's with a manual tranny!!

 

Anyway, for better or worse, I have the Loyale back home now. She gets to go in for a shampooing tomorrow morning to get that "funk" smell out.

 

Thanks again for all the help and info - really helping me out.

Kevin

[subiefan]

Does it "bump" into the next gear all the time? Or only when accelerating hard/quickly? I do not own a Loyale. However, my 93 Impreza does "bump" into the next gear when accelerating hard/quickly. It shifts smoothly when accelerating slowly. Since its a new gen Sube it has the 4 speed Auto and could be completely different though.

[erikvr]

Well, called the dealership again to confirm these items you recommended. The water pump will be done and they will be doing the two timing belts. But they said they won't be doing the oil/cam seals since "it increases compression in other areas of the engine - possibly leading to a blowout in another area. The seals looked good and it's recommended to do all the engine seals at once when you do the whole engine." Um, true??

 

Also, are there other transmissions (Auto) that people swap into these? Again, sorry for the newbie questions...I'm just learning as I go...thanks again!

 

This is a great board - similar to the Cruiser boards I subscribe to as well!

Kevin

 

Well, these engines are prone to leaking and that is why people here swear by replacing them each and every time you have to do the work to get to the timing belts. Nothing is a bigger pisser than having them leak and you have to get into change the seal. As for their logic...??? Just hope you don't get a leak there in the next 60k miles 'cause you'll have to go back in. And we're talking about the cam "O" rings (not cam seal!) and the front crank seal (the cam seal is in a differnt area and should only be done if it is leaking).

 

And think about what the mechanic is saying...if he changes those seals and makes them like new, it will cause..........a problem???? huh???

 

Those seals will cost you a few bucks each, minor labor, and are worth changing. As for the trannie question, I'll leave that to others. But I would say that if I were you (and had a backup car) I would just drive that puppy until the timing belts go. Then tow it to the shop. What if you have another year of life or more in those belts? They can surprise you! Plus you can save your cash to figure out the tranny question. Could be easy (I had a honda that had the same issue and it was the little governor causing the proble...cheap!!!). But I don't have an AT subaru, just 5 speeds so don't ask me.

 

And really get that book I talked about in my prior post. That hippie guy who wrote the 60s bible on do it yourself VW wagon repair wrote this one before he died. If you can start a car, he will teach you how to do your repairs, one step at a time. It's like a big brother there teaching you tips............

[ZGLoyale]

Well, these engines are prone to leaking and that is why people here swear by replacing them each and every time you have to do the work to get to the timing belts.

 

And really get that book I talked about in my prior post. That hippie guy who wrote the 60s bible on do it yourself VW wagon repair wrote this one before he died. If you can start a car, he will teach you how to do your repairs, one step at a time. It's like a big brother there teaching you tips............

 

Well, thanks again guys for all your help and advice. I got my Subie back and they didn't change the seals even after I called to check up on it. I appreciate all the info, but this guy has been working on Subs for a long time and told me that even if he changed ALL the seals, I'd be back in a year with oil leaks. It's hard to argue with a mechanic when he knows you are armed only with the knowledge of "the 'net". It sort of felt like

 

So, next time, I'll just check in here first and find a mechanic that will do what you guys recommend! OR, do it myself!

 

What is this "hippie author" book that you refer to? I couldn't find it. Anyway, thanks for all the help! All you guys are very helpful.

Kevin

[ogiesdad]

"How To Keep Your Subaru Alive" by Larry Owens --That's the book, and well worth tracking down if you don't have to pay too much for it. There's some things not covered (stripped drive hubs for one) but everything else is right on the money, and will help you work on other cars, which is why I've hung on to my copy.

[erikvr]

"How To Keep Your Subaru Alive" by Larry Owens --That's the book, and well worth tracking down if you don't have to pay too much for it. There's some things not covered (stripped drive hubs for one) but everything else is right on the money, and will help you work on other cars, which is why I've hung on to my copy.

 

He's right. Any moron (including me) can change seals and timing belts with that book. Hell, I even suck at sports and I can do it.

[thealleyboy]

The Hippie book (How to Keep your Subaru Alive) is excellent for the EA81 series, but is a little weak on the EA82's, particularly the FI models like your Loyale. Still, the practical info on the Subes is hard to beat.

 

Another "classic" book for this era of cars (IMO) is the "Reader's Digest Complete Care Manual". It is not Sube-specific, but explains beginner and intermediate procedures thoroughly, and has excellent drawings. A good balance of theory and the how-to, and covers the technology that was current at the time these cars were built. It is long out of print, but they pop up from time to time at yard sales, and second-hand stores. Highly recommended...

good luck, John

[Cougar]

Here is a link for the book at Half.com. Going by the prices, this must be a collectors item.

 

http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=1369202&pr=950228