subarunewbie2005 Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 OK here I am again trying to figure out whats wrong with the 84 GL . Ok since my last post on a completely different topic, but I had the same symptoms. Well I checked the distributor...it turns and i have spark to the plugs (nice bluish-yellow mini lighting bolt) and I have ignition pulses at the coil (as described in another thread elsewhere on the board). So I moved to the next thing on the list, fuses all fuses that are remotely related to ECU, Horn, Ignition Coil etc are fine. Checked fuel pump after repairing somone else's f*%&ed up wiring job and testing the pump from a 12 V source (the pump came on and scared the hell out of me for a second or two when it started) ............... BTW the wife crawled under the car and removed the pump hehehehehe (gotta love farm gals )...............anyways replaced pump into it little craddle and.....................................nothing not a damned thing. There is 12v power coming to the pump, which works when cranking the engine. Correct me if Im wrong but isnt it supposed to cycle when the keys turned to the ON position? It doesnt do this which would indicate a bad pump relay, i havent checked any of the fusible links yet. The filter is new (one in engine compartment) and the filter inline with the fuel pump is clear. Im just not getting any fuel through the line. This is an 84 GL w/ a 1.8L 2bbl Hitachi carb, A/C 4spd and 4wd. SO what gives ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 first you need to verify that the pump is indeed flowing fuel...not just making noise. if you had to fix someone else's wiring job i'd wonder what they were trying to fix in the first place? run 12 volts to the pump with the outlet side of the hose disconnected. make sure gas actually comes out of the pump. if that checks out then run the pump (with hoses all attached), but disconnect a fuel line in the engine bay (prior to fuel filter) and see if fuel flows to the engine bay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 I know the newer models activate the pump by providing a ground to the pump through the ECU and I think yours may be the same way but I can't say for sure. I have repaired a couple of the newer style ECU's that had the same problem with providing a ground for the pump. The same transistor had to be replaced in both units. Your ECU may have a similar problem. The pump should come on briefly when you turn the key to ON, or at least the newer models do that. If you have 12 volts on both sides of the connections to the pump (with reference to ground) then the ground switching is not working for some reason. You have already proved that the pump works when tied to power directly so I'm pretty sure this is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarunewbie2005 Posted September 6, 2005 Author Share Posted September 6, 2005 I disconnected what I thought was the fuel line coming from the pump to see if I had any fuel coming to the engine bay but no dice. When I hooked 12 volts up to the pump to verify that it was working the fuel that was still in it came puking out for lack of a better terminology. ANd from what Ive gathered from the board thats what leads me to believe that the problem as Cougar said is somewhere in the relay or the ECU. Im used to dealing with mechanical fuel pumps and have some experience with electric pumps on American cars where the relay is right where you can see it and easily replaced, but with the GL Im stumped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subeman90 Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 ok here is what I found and I don't know if it will help but..... back when my 83 wouldn't start here is what I learned.... key on but no crank will make a small pulse but no flow motor cranking will make small pulses pump will not continusly run if the motor doesn't start and lastly..... are you sure you have it timed right....i thought I did but I was dead wrong. Made a disty adjustment and she fired right off. 90* will make you really scratch your head.... Keep in mind you are not going to have hellish flow from the pump...it is an electric pump on a carb engine...i think its specs. are 2-5 lbs. not 60 lbs. like on an fi engine or even more on a diesel but I digress. Keep at it...I scratched my head pretty good till i got mine to run.... and Glen was a big help with mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 Your car neither has a fuel pump relay nor does the ECU control the pump. It has a seperate transistorized fuel pump control unit. If you hotwired the pump w/the FPCU still in the circuit,it may have been damaged. The pump grounds to the body.I would be checking that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 Thanks for the info Naru. Now that you mention it my memory is recalling that also. If I remember correctly the controller is under the passenger seat, or is it somewhere else? I never had to work on my '83 really much at all so I didn't get into the systems as much as the newer style. That car was the least troublesome auto I have ever owner. I had it about 11 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 Yes, theres 2 relays under the passenger seat(this is what my 84 T-Coupe had, not sure about NA). One is for the ignition the other is FP relay. But I would make sure the pump is grounded, maybe run a test wire from the pump to a good ground source to check it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 Doesn't the controller make the ground for the pump? He stated that power was getting to the pump but since it is not working and the pump has proven good, a missing ground would seem to be the reason it is not working. I thought the FPC had control of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarunewbie2005 Posted September 6, 2005 Author Share Posted September 6, 2005 Doesn't the controller make the ground for the pump? He stated that power was getting to the pump but since it is not working and the pump has proven good, a missing ground would seem to be the reason it is not working. I thought the FPC had controll of that. Power does get to the pump only when the engine is cranking other than that theres nothing. Im about ready to run a toggle switch if thatll work just wanna get it running so the dang thing is out of the driveway so I can get to my Ranger and try and get it running ( no rest for the weary I guess couple that with working on the Dynasty, hell maybe I should start a garage as many cars as I have to work on LOL) . Thanks for the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 The FP is only supposed to operate when the key is turned to the start position, not the on position. Run a ground wire to the pump and see if the car will start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarunuts Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 FPCU is located under the driver's side dash. Attached to the mount that holds the hood release cable. It's usually black or greenish in color. There are two types depending on if the engine is feedback or not. Pump should not run unless engine is cranking or running - it's the job of the FPCU to determine if the engine is running or not. They are not well known for going bad, but it's possible, or there could be a problem with the signal for it to run the pump. Shouldn't matter tho - the engine should still start after enough cranking since the pump is running with the crank circuit. Then the engine would die a few seconds later as the fuel flow ceased. This is not your symptom so perhaps the pump is actually bad. Try replacing with any decent aftermarket carb pump and see what you get. I like the Carter pumps myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarunewbie2005 Posted September 7, 2005 Author Share Posted September 7, 2005 Ill try and check everything that has been listed here and see if thats my problem. If its the FPSU is there any way to check that? I dont have a DVOM anymore (long Story) but I do have a 12v test light. Ive been looking at NapaOnline and the OEM pump that they are showing has the ground wire already fitted with a ground clip and the red hot wire is still bare so Im guessing that Subaru meant for these pumps to be hooked up through a hot lead somewhere either off the Ignition or the fuse box or maybe through a switch I dont know. Its confusing to say the least here. This is my first time working on or with a Subaru and even this thread has me confused even more . But like I said Ill try and check everything thats been brought up here today or tomorrow (I have to put a window regulator in the Dynasty so Ill just move up the line LOL). Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 Don't be confused here, all we are looking for is a battery and ground connection. From the sounds of your first post it sounds like you are getting power to the pump but just need the ground or return connection to make it run. I don't think that the pump is meant to be just grounded to the body but I can't say for sure as I don't have a manual. I think the ground for the pump is controlled by the controller. I would see if you can trace the pump wires back to the controller and if you can, then you can test from there. Using your test light and clipping the lead to a good ground point will work fine. When testing the ground side of the pump circuit the light will be ON when there is power going through the pump windings but no ground is being made to it. The pump can't run because the circuit is open. If the light is OFF while touching the ground side and there is power getting to the pump, then the pump will be ON. The current flow will cause a voltage drop across the pump motor because the circuit is complete and not open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarunewbie2005 Posted September 8, 2005 Author Share Posted September 8, 2005 OK well Ill look aint like I have anything else to do today anyways, the fuel pump in the Dynasty burnt up yesteray (hd a nice leak in the line to the engine so it burnt out trying o keep up) so maybe if I can get one of the three running Ill be money ahead on this deal as the saying goes. But one thing that still has me puzzled is the fact that there isnt any oil pressure when I try to crank the motor, Im guessing that unless the engines running that there wont be any oil pressure. Cant really tell until I figure out whats wrong with the fuel pump ground *sighs* oh well guess Ill try it and see what i figure out.................thanks Ill let yall know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarunewbie2005 Posted September 8, 2005 Author Share Posted September 8, 2005 OK heres what i found I took the panel off below the colum and over next to the fuse box/hood release area there are what look to be two relays. of course i didnt look any closer so Im not sure if there was a FPCU present or not I wanted to look under there first before I took out a seat to look under there. So now what am I looking at? To me it looks like maybe the flasher and an ignition control relay but Im not sure...I will investigate further and see what else I find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fj401968 Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 The FP is only supposed to operate when the key is turned to the start position, not the on position. Run a ground wire to the pump and see if the car will start. speaking of fuel pumps... when I turn the key on (1987 GL wagon, carb, no computer), I hear the fuel pump... it's pretty loud. Of course I hear it with the engine running as well. The engine runs fine. Are the fuel pumps supposed to be heard? I've only had the car a couple weeks. My '90 Legacy doesn't make any fuel pump noise, my old '88 had a pretty loud fuel pump (it also had FI). My old '81 GL wagon didn't make any fuel pump noises. Tracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstSubaruGLwagon Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 speaking of fuel pumps... when I turn the key on (1987 GL wagon, carb, no computer), I hear the fuel pump... it's pretty loud. Of course I hear it with the engine running as well. The engine runs fine. Are the fuel pumps supposed to be heard? I've only had the car a couple weeks. My '90 Legacy doesn't make any fuel pump noise, my old '88 had a pretty loud fuel pump (it also had FI). My old '81 GL wagon didn't make any fuel pump noises. Tracy thats intersting because my dad has an old merceties and you can hear the fuel pump in it. Turns out there are two pumps in his car, one in the fuel tank and one on the line.. and if one goes bad its hard to diagnose because it gives the wrong error codes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 The devices you found would appear to be relays but I don't know what they are for. I would follow the advice from Surarunuts in post #12. He seems to know the location. The FP relay may be under the passenger seat as was mentioned earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarunewbie2005 Posted September 8, 2005 Author Share Posted September 8, 2005 The devices you found would appear to be relays but I don't know what they are for. I would follow the advice from Surarunuts in post #12. He seems to know the location. The FP relay may be under the passenger seat as was mentioned earlier. I looked back under there and didnt see anything except for a black plastic cover at the front edge of the seat. I dont if thats anything since I cant get it off to look under it (kinda hard to work with things when ya aint got the right tools ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Can you verify that power is getting to both sides of the pump when the key is turned to ON or the START position using you test probe? If it is, we need to follow the ground lead to see where it goes. It will lead us to the area that needs to be checked. It will either be a relay, the FPCU, or a bad connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarunewbie2005 Posted September 12, 2005 Author Share Posted September 12, 2005 Can you verify that power is getting to both sides of the pump when the key is turned to ON or the START position using you test probe? If it is, we need to follow the ground lead to see where it goes. It will lead us to the area that needs to be checked. It will either be a relay, the FPCU, or a bad connection. I found the wires thats how I was able to find that black box. But only the power wire for the pump runs to the front, the ground wire splits off and runs toward the back of the car. Also when I was looking at the box there was a second wire marked the same as the wire that ran to the pump this wire runs to a about 1.5 inch cylinderical relay looking piece thats on the firewall behind the instrument cluster. Whats this then? Im going to be getting a Haynes manual that has some wiring diagrams in it so i can figure out what is what when I go to get a fuel pump for the Dynasty (when it rains it freakin poors dont it ). Another thought that was brought to my attention by another friend of ours is the O2 sensor, Im not even sure the GL has one, but if it does would it have anything to do with the car not wanting to start? Right now ANYTHING goes, because we need this car running and a ok for the winter. My mother-in-law is looking into getting another car for my son so that he can get back and forth to school so Ill have alittle more time to run this problem down more than likely. Thanks again for any input Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted September 12, 2005 Share Posted September 12, 2005 The device you spotted on the firewall sounds like it is a relay. I don't know if it is in the fuel pump circuit or not. You could ohm out the wire to the pump to see if it goes to it or not, but if I remember correctly you don't have a meter. I would recommend you get if you don't have one. Even a cheap one would be better than nothing. You do have a O2 sensor and if it has a problem it should set a code in the ECU. It would not cause this kind of problem though if it was bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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