All 2.5's need head gasket?

[jbsig2]

Hello, I am considering buying a 1997 Outback. It has 120k on it and the hg hasn't been replaced. Do all of these engines have this problem - is it always just a matter of time? I am new to Subaru and don't want my first one to be a lemon.

 

Also, if the hg is replaced, does it go out again at the same interval?

 

How strongly is it recommended to wait and find a 1995 with the 2.2? It sounds like that is the bulletproof engine.

 

Any feedback would be great.

[outback_97]

jbsig2:

 

Welcome to the USMB. This link has some HG relevant info:

http://users.sisna.com/ignatius/subaru/headgasket.html

 

FWIW, mine has almost 120K miles now and no HG problems. They don't all fail. You'll hear a lot about it because a number have, and boards like this tend to discuss problems more often than a lack of problems. It can fail again, not necessarily in the same time frame, and not necessarily ever. Search around on this board and you'll find many threads regarding head gaskets.

 

Most people will tell you it should be fine to buy, but budget in the cost of a repair in case it happens. So it really depends on the price. The 2.2 has had HG failures too, just a much lower percentage of them. That's my 2 cents.

 

Steve

[jbsig2]

thanks

[nipper]

My 97 OBW has 180K on the original head gaskets. In comparsion hindas tend to blow them around 140K, and like anything else that ages, sometimes they will last forever, other times they wont. A head gasket failure past 100K i wouldnt blame on design, I would balme on age, one of those things, or poor maint from the previous owner.

 

 

nipper

[RallyKeith]

jbsig2:

 

It can fail again, not necessarily in the same time frame, and not necessarily ever.

 

....

 

The 2.2 has had HG failures too, just a much lower percentage of them. That's my 2 cents.

 

Steve

 

Let's just clear a few things up that I think are a bit misleading here.

 

There were design issues with the early EJ25D DOHC 2.5 that caused HG failures. This has been fixed and as long as you have the HGs replaced with gaskets from Subaru and the job is done correctly they should not fail for the same reasons. However, if the job is done incorrectly, or the driver does something like drive with no coolant, well then of course the gaskets can go. Also, to be clear, the later SOHC 2.5 has an issue with the headgasket, but it is mearly a leak of coolant to the outside where as the DOHC is actually a blown HG.

 

As for does it happen to every motor? NO There are plenty of motors that have not had a problem, but a majority of them have. Like was mentioned, it's good to factor that in somewhere in case it happens.

 

As for the 2.2 there has never been a design flaw to my knowledge that lead to HG failures. There are lots of reasons HGs can go, but you will have to search long and hard to come up with 2.2 HG failures that don't have a story behind them.

 

Keith

[nipper]

I think the number quoted was it involved 12% of the 2.5L (saw it qouted on here some place) . Seems like more, but it just seems that way because its a very expensive fix, and its annoying to do.

I'm on another outback list, and i did quick search and there arent that many posts concerened with over heating.

For the record, 12% is a high number.

 

nipper

[outback_97]

Let's just clear a few things up that I think are a bit misleading here.

 

There were design issues with the early EJ25D DOHC 2.5 that caused HG failures. This has been fixed and as long as you have the HGs replaced with gaskets from Subaru and the job is done correctly they should not fail for the same reasons. However, if the job is done incorrectly, or the driver does something like drive with no coolant, well then of course the gaskets can go. Also, to be clear, the later SOHC 2.5 has an issue with the headgasket, but it is mearly a leak of coolant to the outside where as the DOHC is actually a blown HG.

 

As for does it happen to every motor? NO There are plenty of motors that have not had a problem, but a majority of them have. Like was mentioned, it's good to factor that in somewhere in case it happens.

 

As for the 2.2 there has never been a design flaw to my knowledge that lead to HG failures. There are lots of reasons HGs can go, but you will have to search long and hard to come up with 2.2 HG failures that don't have a story behind them.

 

Keith

 

Keith:

 

I agree, I'm all for clarity. I'm assuming you read the contents of the link I posted above, in that I've attempted to address some of the differences in the Phase1 and Phase2 HG problems, as well as providing helpful links to HG discussions including the evolution of the gasket itself. I've posted this before when the question comes up, as it is a common one here. If there is unclear or misleading information presented there, please let me know so that I might improve that, thanks.

 

Do you have a source on your assertion that the majority of Phase 1 2.5's have HG failure? Just curious, as I've never seen it quantified and wonder how that's even possible to know.

 

Agreed that the 2.2's don't seem to have a design flaw that leads to HG problems, at least in my limited experience and research online.

 

Hopefully we haven't scared the OP off

 

Steve

[svxpert]

<<I think the number quoted was it involved 12% of the 2.5L (saw it qouted on here some place) .>>

 

12% of what number? the number produced or the number on some "poll"?

[nipper]

I think it was of all the 2.5L produced in the affected years. I would hunt for the post, but since its a popular subject here, would take me all day...

 

hehehe im bored but not that bored

 

What puzzles me is that Subaru was never subject to a recall, but when ford escorts had a related issue ( I dont rember if it was the head gasket or cylinder head), they did a recall. Granted it took a long time for ford to fess up. I had an escort at the time (this was before I discovereed the wonders of all things subaru) and they replaced the head.

 

nipper

[later, Peter]

No! not all 2.5 phase one's need head gaskets replaced. There seem to be a few theories of the original of the failure (cooling system design flaw, gasket design flaw) in any event... I spoke with MANY folks with Subarus with well over 100k on the odometer NO PROBLEMS! I have two 2.5's a '99 that I have put nearly 30k on in less than a year... NO PROBLEMS! & a '96 with over 155k... NO PROBLEMS! who knows though? you may get one of the 12% (although I seem to remember the SOA # was more like 3%...

gotta go with your gut.

Later,

Peter

[cookie]

but I have a phase 2 and did the necessary stuff to keep it covered.

In my recollection Chevy, Ford, Mazda, Honda, Datsun, and Toyota have all had head gasket problems as well as other things from time to time. When my friend Ernie had a head gasket problem on his Toyota they changed the entire engine. this is one reson he swears by Toyota.

Every company has problems, it is just how they handle it.

[tailgatewagon]

inho early 2.5 suck when it come to subaru's but is ususaly at par or above when compaired to usa auto's ,,,,

 

i think as a car 2.5 subarus are a decent buy,,,,,

 

as a subaru buy there are better choices,,, as in

 

how about a 97 legacy ls or lsi, it will ride much nicer (outbacks are like lumber wagons in comparison) and the body clading is looking dated on 2000 and older outbacks,,,,,

the non outback will cost you less. you get a built proof motor, welll as bulit proff as anything man made can be...

better gas milage(but is usualy up to the driver not the car)

 

not saying the outback is a bad buy but i think if you look over subarus line of cars at that time 96-99, you may find a car you like better that will cost less and bring a few less headakes

[nipper]

heheh HEY i like the way my outback rides in comparison to my legacy L. in fact i think it has a better ride, and the cladding is cool....

 

hehehehe

 

but i do like a GT

 

nipper

[pinnhedd]

yeah, I own a 98 Forester with the 2.5 and it has over 150k, no HG problems so far..

[nipper]

Hello, I am considering buying a 1997 Outback. It has 120k on it and the hg hasn't been replaced. Do all of these engines have this problem - is it always just a matter of time? I am new to Subaru and don't want my first one to be a lemon.

 

Also, if the hg is replaced, does it go out again at the same interval?

 

How strongly is it recommended to wait and find a 1995 with the 2.2? It sounds like that is the bulletproof engine.

 

Any feedback would be great.

 

OK only about 15% of the 2.5L have bad head gaskets. Once a a car gets over 120 -130K any aluminum engine can blow a head gasket due to age.

Anytime you get a used car, especially a 4 cyl engine aluminum from any mfg can blow a head gasket.

 

 

nipper

[a97obw]

I drove my 97 Outback for 4 1/2 years and 53K miles when it finally hit 91K miles and the head gaskets bit the dust. If I was considering purcasing another Subaru with the 4 cam 2.5 engine, I'd make sure I figured in the cost to replace the head gaskets in the purchase price.

 

I was in Vicksburg MS last week and happened to notice a 98 Outback Limited on the used lot at a Nissan/Jeep dealership. Black with grey leather interior, pretty clean and only 45K miles. Since I was driving my 97 OBW at the time, I asked the salesman "how much difference are you going to give ME on a trade for that one?":lol: I then asked him what they were asking for the car, and he told me...are you ready......

 

"only" $9995 (Nine Thousand Nine Hundred Ninety Five dollars!) Needless to say, I left laughing. Perhaps it was a "loaner" from the now out of business Subaru dealership and Wayne Newton used it to get to one of the local casinos or something....

 

Anyways, back to the topic, for 4 1/2 years and the 53k miles I've driven my OBW, it was LOUD on the interstate at 70mph and sounded like it was going to explode at any moment in 5th gear turning about 3200 rpm. I probably had 5 or 6 episodes of check engine light where it "detected a misfire on cylinder X" during that time. Since I replaced the head gaskets, it is a totally different engine. MUCH much more quiet at speed! So I'd drive more than one in making your decision!

[starkiller]

have a 96 with the 2.5 and 123k and no problems yet(knock on wood) needle stays rock solid at just below half.....

[PAezb]

No! not all 2.5 phase one's need head gaskets replaced. There seem to be a few theories of the original of the failure (cooling system design flaw, gasket design flaw) in any event... I spoke with MANY folks with Subarus with well over 100k on the odometer NO PROBLEMS! I have two 2.5's a '99 that I have put nearly 30k on in less than a year... NO PROBLEMS! & a '96 with over 155k... NO PROBLEMS! who knows though? you may get one of the 12% (although I seem to remember the SOA # was more like 3%...

gotta go with your gut.

Later,

Peter

 

I seem to remember years ago, and probably buried in the archives, a post that mentioned a German source (magazine?) qouted as say the number was around 8%. But who knows, we'll never know exactly. My impression in talking to the dealers and some independents that do HG work on Subarus is the number is much higher, like 1 out of every 5 or 4. When asked, most just shake there heads, smile, and reply 'we do alot of them'.

 

Also, this board represents a very very small percentage of reported incidents. We can't account for those who never visit forums like these, or do just to find information on their problem and never share/add their voice. And many haven't had the problem yet, but may still experience it down the road (in time).

 

The other thing to consider is what is a reasonable expectation for failures like this to occur - 100K miles, 150K, never.... 5% of total production units sold, 10%, 20% ???. Compared to the glowing accolades of the Subaru 2.2 engine, the 2.5 (both phase I and II) leave a lot to be desired on this subject. And Subaru's handling of the problem has been pathetic, not to mention the cost both the dealers and indys charge to do repairs really pulls the value down over the life of the vehicle.

 

That said, I still enjoy my 96' OBW, now with a 190K (HG replaced at 138K).

[WAWalker]

Me thinks that trying to figure % of cars that will have HG problems is BS. In a small town with a LOT of Subarus I have seen them go at ~90k to ~180k. And still see a lot for sale with well under 100k on them. Subaru didn't stop production of that engine after 4 years because it was a good design. I would put my money on having to replace HG's on all of them.

 

Dosn't make them bad cars. If you buy them right, and have to replace HG's, you still have a good car with a lot of miles left in it. And the payments and insurance on a new car will add up to the cost of a HG replacement in what, 2.5-3 months.

[cookie]

So I might as well weigh in with my guess. I think a few of early 2.5s will not need replacement due to thier use, and will last as long as rings or valves.

By this I mean head gaskets often nearly fuse to the surfaces. There is not much support on a 2.5 for the gasket and if you take a car that is running fine around town and move it to the next stage of heating I think the gasket can break loose. With dissimilar metals and an alloy block expansion seems destined to make it move around. You also often get a big change in use when a car changes owners. Younger owners hop in the car and do long ski trips and college trips that settled folks with jobs don't have time to do.

The phase 2s are a different problem and a bandaid is likely to be an OK for a lot of these cars. When I had external leakage on my phase 2 the Subaru goop would have taken care of it.

I would just plan on a gasket change with a phase 1 and expect lots more miles out of it.