Flashing CEL but no codes stored?? (long)

[Gav]

Hi,

This is my first post and also my first subaru. I've been working on cars as a hobby for 17 years so I'm not going to ask stupid noob questions.

 

 

I've been searching through the forums but couldn't find anything pertaining to the problems I've experienced.

 

2004 Forester X, AT, 8,000 Miles.

 

History: 2 weeks ago took it into the dealer for an oil change and a transmission noise problem (They replaced some valves in the tranny and the "transpack"). Noticed 2 mpg less per tank but attribute it to them testing the car etc. I don't think they are using winter fuels yet...

 

Problem: Sunday I was driving in hilly downtown seattle. After going up a pretty steep hill I got on the freeway. I didn't jump on the throttle or anything like that because there was another car in front of me on the on ramp. So I'm accelerating moderately and the car starts to shudder. It feels like crap.

 

The check engine light starts flashing every few seconds, but all the gauges seem to be normal. I have the air on (just vent, not AC) and I smell something burning. I drive for about 5 minutes and call subaru roadside. After being on hold for another 5 minutes they finally answer. Meanwhile I've pulled over in a parking lot. The car idles like it is on 2 cylinders. I pop the hoodl. It doesn't smell like antifreeze or oil, but still smells burnt. I check the oil and see that's it's past the two dots on the dipstick. I wipe it off and check it again and still it's past the two dots. I'm thinking they overfilled it and after going up that steep hill, the oil was doing something bad like hitting the crank. maybe?!? I dunno. I stop and start the car a couple of times and it still idles like crap. I check that the spark plug wires are on tight and they are. Roadside assistance was useless.

 

I decide to drive it to the dealer that is less than 10 miles away. On the way to the dealer, the car smooths out and the check engine light stops flashing. Ok, I decide to take it home to drop off my wife, baby, and her grandparents. Car is running fine still.

 

Dealer states, they can't find any codes. wtf is that all about? Doesn't the computer store codes?! Service advisor: "If you have a flashing check engine light and the problem goes away you won't get a code stored." Is this true or are they trying to hide a mistake they made? They took it for a couple of test drives and couldn't replicate the problem. Do they have mechanics there or just people that know how to use a code reader? sheesh.

 

This could become a serious problem I don't want my wife to be driving this car, trying to get on the freeway and getting run down because the car decides to crap out on her.

 

Anyone have suggestions on how to get this taken care of? Do I have to talk with a district service manager or something? help.

 

TIA,

Gav

[1 Lucky Texan]

  Gav said:

Hi,

This is my first post and also my first subaru. I've been working on cars as a hobby for 17 years so I'm not going to ask stupid noob questions.

 

 

I've been searching through the forums but couldn't find anything pertaining to the problems I've experienced.

 

2004 Forester X, AT, 8,000 Miles.

 

History: 2 weeks ago took it into the dealer for an oil change and a transmission noise problem (They replaced some valves in the tranny and the "transpack"). Noticed 2 mpg less per tank but attribute it to them testing the car etc. I don't think they are using winter fuels yet...

 

Problem: Sunday I was driving in hilly downtown seattle. After going up a pretty steep hill I got on the freeway. I didn't jump on the throttle or anything like that because there was another car in front of me on the on ramp. So I'm accelerating moderately and the car starts to shudder. It feels like crap.

 

The check engine light starts flashing every few seconds, but all the gauges seem to be normal. I have the air on (just vent, not AC) and I smell something burning. I drive for about 5 minutes and call subaru roadside. After being on hold for another 5 minutes they finally answer. Meanwhile I've pulled over in a parking lot. The car idles like it is on 2 cylinders. I pop the hoodl. It doesn't smell like antifreeze or oil, but still smells burnt. I check the oil and see that's it's past the two dots on the dipstick. I wipe it off and check it again and still it's past the two dots. I'm thinking they overfilled it and after going up that steep hill, the oil was doing something bad like hitting the crank. maybe?!? I dunno. I stop and start the car a couple of times and it still idles like crap. I check that the spark plug wires are on tight and they are. Roadside assistance was useless.

 

I decide to drive it to the dealer that is less than 10 miles away. On the way to the dealer, the car smooths out and the check engine light stops flashing. Ok, I decide to take it home to drop off my wife, baby, and her grandparents. Car is running fine still.

 

Dealer states, they can't find any codes. wtf is that all about? Doesn't the computer store codes?! Service advisor: "If you have a flashing check engine light and the problem goes away you won't get a code stored." Is this true or are they trying to hide a mistake they made? They took it for a couple of test drives and couldn't replicate the problem. Do they have mechanics there or just people that know how to use a code reader? sheesh.

 

This could become a serious problem I don't want my wife to be driving this car, trying to get on the freeway and getting run down because the car decides to crap out on her.

 

Anyone have suggestions on how to get this taken care of? Do I have to talk with a district service manager or something? help.

 

TIA,

Gav

 

Kinda mysterious. Could you go back to the same road and replicate the problem? maybe with a mechanic in the car?

 

Also, how much above the dot was the oil overfilled?

 

Did you check the coolant level?

 

Did you see any smoke and what color was it?

 

I dunno

 

carl

[nipper]

I think the CEL light has two modes ... the constant on mode... something is out of wack, the flashing mode, which means something is seriously out of wack and pull over and investigate.

 

I had the flashing light once, like you did, it was odd. I was going up the Gothels bridge in Staten Island. Car was running a bit odd, CEL light, then flashing light. got off the bridge, checked the owners manual... shut the car off. I poked around under the hood, everything was ok. Started the car no CEL.

Three weeks later i needed a timing belt.

Dont kn ow if it was related or not, this was a 97 Legacy 2.2l. I was told since the cam shaft and crankshaft sensor got out of synch due to not happy timing belt, I got the flashing light. After the timing belt i never had a CEL again.

 

nipper

[Gav]

I didn't pull the cap on the coolant level but the plastic jug showed it had coolant. The oil was about a quarter inch higher or so than the second dot.

 

Also, there was no smoke.

 

Also, get this, the service advisor states that "in the winter time we use alaskan gas and they put more sulfur in it so it's easier for the winter so that could attribute to your lower gas mileage". I corrected him and said they put ethanol in the gas not sulphur. omg!!!

[nipper]

Is that like winter air and summer air in the tires ?

 

 

hehehe

nipper

[1 Lucky Texan]

  Gav said:

I didn't pull the cap on the coolant level but the plastic jug showed it had coolant. The oil was about a quarter inch higher or so than the second dot.

 

Also, there was no smoke.

 

Also, get this, the service advisor states that "in the winter time we use alaskan gas and they put more sulfur in it so it's easier for the winter so that could attribute to your lower gas mileage". I corrected him and said they put ethanol in the gas not sulphur. omg!!!

 

We may never know unless more problems show up. I suppose, if the crankcase were overfilled initially, that an incline could cause 1 or 2 things, possibly in combination. (wild speculation mode ON> the shop overfilled the crankcase by maybe a liter or more(maybe the nozzle was set for a 3.0 H6), the incline caused the rear of the crank to beat the oil, sending oil and oil vapor through the PCV valve system and creating some misfiring in one or more cylinders as well as causing the catalytic converter some grief/smell. Possibly also causing some asynchrony between the crank and cam angle sensors. < END wild spec mode)

 

I dunno

[friendly_jacek]

Some cars, I think toyota including, store a code and ilumminate MIL only after 2 separate trips with the same malfunction. Maybe subaru is one of them.

The blinking MIL signifies a condition potentially damaging to emission componets as opposed to more benign malfunction. Frequent misfires or super rich condition would belong to that category.

Maybe Texan is correct that overfilling can cause this, but I would not try to rechallange. On the other hand, you can check the plugs if you didn't drive too much afterwards.

[Gav]

latest:

They are keeping the car for another day to see if they can find anything wrong. They checked the oil and the dipstick says the correct amount is in there, right between the dots. (cold) Oil doesn't expand that much when its warm.

 

If they don't find anything what do you think I should do? The car is only a year old.

 

Suggestions? I'm thinking about buying a code reader and leaving it hooked up to the car so if it does happen again I can give them the code. What do you guys think?

[nipper]

Actually thats not a bad idea, you can keep it pluged in and rad it on the run. Back in the bad old days, when everyone had thier own cmputer and reader, we (the techs) would take a customers car home with the scanner pluged in to it to see if we could make it happen.

 

The readers can be found on ebay, and autozone? will rent you one for the cost of the reader.

 

 

nipper

[Gav]

Just what I thought, they found nothing wrong.They had "the best subaru mechanic in the nation" on it and he ran full diagnostics etc.

 

So, what brand of reader is good? What do they run for? I guess its time to buy a shop manual too.

[1 Lucky Texan]

  Gav said:

----snip---------------

 

"the best subaru mechanic in the nation" on it

 

-------------snip------------

 

'like anyone could even know that!'

 

lol!

[cookie]

my guess is bad gas these days. There is some really tacky stuff out there and on a steep hill you could hit water floating on top of the fuel. This often does not leave a code. I would toss in a can of dry gas just to be sure.

I have never seen a car stutter with overfilled oil, I've just seen it puke it out. On BMWs folks often overfill oil before racing to prevent starvation in the turns.

[Gav]

latest update. I just checked my oil this morning. There are 2 holes on the dipstick and one notch. The 2 holes (low and full) are supposed to be used to check the oil when cold. The notch is higher up on the scale and it is the limit of oil when its at operating temp. The oil was 1/4 inch above the highest notch. At least there is no disappearing oil. I'm taking my car back again and I'm going to point to manual where it says it should be at the F mark when cold. I really hope they didn't damage the engine by putting too much oil in.

 

Oh, and the thing about bmw's putting extra oil in when racing to prevent starvation. That may not affect a normal inline as much but for a boxer engine with the crank at the same level as the pistons I think you are going to have a different outcome.

[cookie]

I have seen my Subaru overfilled a bit on oil on a few occasions. So far I have had no odd problems with it from this. When I used to have the oil changed by the dealer it was overfilled every time. Rental car companies often do this too because few Americans check the oil in a rental.

Let us know what they say.

[soobyfan]

If you are still thinking of buying a scanner here is the one I have, it works well.

 

http://www.scantool.net/products/elmscan_iso.htm

[Gav]

I talked with the service manager. I had them get a tech out to check the oil. He agreed that it was overfilled. They drained it all out and filled it back up the to the F mark on the dipstick. I double checked after they brought the car back to me.

 

The manager and tech said that an overfill could cause what I was experiencing but said that usually there is oil in the air filter box when that happens you will be blowing a bunch of smoke out of the exhaust. This is from their experience on working with cars that were overfilled (probably by them!!) He doubted that was what caused my problems and didn't want to write it on the service ticket. On the service ticket it said "drain and refill oil to proper level per customer request". I had him write and sign on the order that it was overfilled. "Oil was overfilled per inspection" and had him sign it. I wanted it documented that it was overfilled to protect myself in case some seals blow our or something.

 

After driving back to the office I checked the oil again (warm). It was at the F mark still. So all the bs about the oil expanding to that level doesn't float. The car did feel smoother and I bet my mpg will go back up to 22 or so. I hope this is what caused the problems and the problem doesn't show up again. I also made a call into Subaru of America and they are going to follow up later with the dealer. hehe.

 

I wonder how many quarts does it take to reach up that high on the dipstick when its cold?

 

This is why I hate taking my car to the dealer!

 

end of rant.

[nipper]

It doesnt take much as the car has a small crankcase. Always check all your fluids and tire pressures after a servicing. Normally its the class B or C mechanic that does the oil changes. Class C bieng the kid working PT while in highschool.

 

nipper