destey Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 I got a '95 Legacy L AWD with 177K and it doesn't handle so great. I had a '95 Legacy L auto when it had only 30k and the car went exactly where you pointed it. This car does not do that. I drive a newly paved interstate each day, and if you point the car straight, it will drive straight... for a moment. Then, keeping the wheel still straight, it veers to the left. Or it'll veer to the right. Within less than one second i'd be off the shoulder if i don't correct. I also get massive understeer/oversteer problems in corners. Now, for what I've checked. - Front shocks have zero bounce. - Right rear has slight bouce, left has none. - Tire pressure 32 front / 30 rear (Bridgestone potenza 1 yr old, no wear). - Ball joints have no movement when tires are shook, or when pried w/prybar - No slop felt from tie rod end at steering knuckle. - * Some kind of slop or knock felt inside the bellows/boots - * Knocking sound from unknown source when steering wheel is move back and forth. Seems like the rack, doesn't it? My questions to all you experts... -What is between the tie rod end and the geared rack cylinder, that resides inside the bellows? The problem is either there, or the rack gears / pinion gears are worn down. -Are all racks the same from 90-99? -I bet remanufact. racks are worn just like mine (they prolly replace just seals). Where can i get new racks cheap? Or low,low,low mileage used racks..? -Everything is rusty under the hood, especially the hydraulic lines going into the rack. Am I doomed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Zero bounce is bad. You should get one to one and one half bounces. Knoking sounds i the universal joint in the sterring shaft, you need to have that looked at too, sometimes its normal, may be a sigh of it seizing. My money is on the struts. Did you check the front end with it jacked up off the ground?nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 ???Nipper??? The dampers/shocks are probably worn out. Even though the car doesn't bounce, they are not working optimally anymore. Replacing all four will improve the handling a great deal. Steering rack/servo might be getting tired. You should have an alignment done. Person doing the alignment should be skilled enough to diagnose the steering. Some of the alignment measurements aren't adjustable, but are references to trace down worn components. New shocks will require an alignment, so you might want to combine things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Like Nipper said, check the steering shaft universal jointS (there are two inline, one behind the other). Check first to see if you have steering play. Can you move the steering from side to side (even a little bit) without the front wheels moving? If so, check the universal joints. Follow the steering shaft as it leaves the fire wall on the engine's side and you'll find them. On my car it was the lower one (hidden by the upper one) that was loose. Just a turn of the ratchet cured the wandering problem. It might not be your problem but better check the simple and cheap to repair things first. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 ???Nipper??? The dampers/shocks are probably worn out. Even though the car doesn't bounce, they are not working optimally anymore. Replacing all four will improve the handling a great deal. Steering rack/servo might be getting tired. You should have an alignment done. Person doing the alignment should be skilled enough to diagnose the steering. Some of the alignment measurements aren't adjustable, but are references to trace down worn components. New shocks will require an alignment, so you might want to combine things. an alignment wouldn't solve a bad rack! (if that's what you were getting at...it's 6:45am and i havn't gone to bed so i could be reading it wrong). Also, i just (personally) did an alignment on my 96 legacy and camber caster and toe were all adjustable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 i said new struts would require an alignment ..not that it would solve the issue all buy itself..... now let me tuck you in nippper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 does your steering feel sloppy at all, when you turn it takes a little extra time/effort to end up going the direction you want? if so - then check your steering rack bushings, i think that's what they are called. the steering rack is held in place by some brackets that have rubber between the rack and the brackets. these brackets can be loose and the bushings go bad, i've heard of both of these problems on http://www.xt6.net, a few people replaced the steering rack bushings and had great results with "drifting" for the lack of a better term. i can't imainge the struts would cause random drifting like this, but i'm no suspension expert either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Struts have no bounce acording to him, and they should bounce 1.5 times at the most, once at the least. They are seized. All that energy from road imperfections have to go someplace, so it goes to the cars cahssies and sterring, where hs would have to give a lot of xourse corrections to keep the car straight. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitz Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Along with the other suggestions, just for shznits & giggles, check the front swaybar to make sure it doesn't have a clean break in it. Also check the swaybar & endlink bushings to make sure none have dried-up and fallen out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handtool Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I too have a '95 legacy sedan with the exact same symtoms. The car is nearly uncontrolable on grooved surfaces like bridge grating. I've replaced everything but the rack trying to correct the problem. Everything as in tierods (inner and outer), ball joints, struts ('03 WRX), and rack bushings (whiteline polyeurethane). I guess all that is left is the rack. Does anybody have any experience in adjusting the backlash? I would also be interested in a source for inexpensive racks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
destey Posted October 31, 2005 Author Share Posted October 31, 2005 Thanks guys for all the replies. nipper/frag: Hadn't considered the two u-joints on the column, I'll check that tomorrow. I probably used the wrong term with the struts. They seem to cushion down and up ok. There doesn't sound like a leak. grossgary: Steering does feel sloppy, I'll elaborate. The steering slop and wandering seem to get worse at higher speeds (inertia). The more abrupt the turn, the longer the delay until the car is turning at a constant rate (if that makes sense). I see the brackets and bushing in the haynes man. I have, I'll scoot under the car tomorrow and have someone turn the wheel. blitz: The swaybar bushing do look a little oval shaped, which is definitely doing something. I have a feeling something else is also going on too Handtool: I have a feeling our cars have the same problem. I have to decide whether the shocks in mine are worth replacing. I'm definitely going to put in new rears, but fronts would be an extra $120 (would i really see a difference by switching to gr-2s?). I think its likely the rack. Perhaps subaru used poorer rack in our generation legacys. I think a reman. rack would be little improvement. Buy new, and maybe the same rack brand that went bad arrives. Anyone know who made the '95 racks? I see A1 Cardone, Maval, and Ac Delco all make racks that fit this legacy. I'd like to stay away from the brand thats currently on there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 you're way ahead of yourself, i don't think you'll need a new rack. i've seen this before and it tends to just be the square-ish bushings, you can just replace those. they aren't that expensive and aren't that hard to replace. much smaller and less expensive job than replacing the rack. i know of one person who's bushing bracket bolts were loose enough to turn by hand even, so just the bolt being loose was the issue. i forget what model you have, but any soob from 90-96 should share steering rack bushings. they are easily to find and replace, i can't find a link to any right now though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 (edited) here's a picture of what the set looks like. there is one square bushing and one round bushing. each bracket is like 2 bolts, replace the bushing and bolt it back on. then you're done. $34.95 from these guys: http://www.esxmotorsports.com/html/contact.htm and you're done. though i don't see them listing these anymore.....not sure if they still carry them. hope so, i wanted a set too! Edited December 24, 2020 by idosubaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitz Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I also get massive understeer/oversteer problems in corners.destey, expound on this comment a bit. To me it would imply that the alignment is changing dynamically ala tie rod ends. - No slop felt from tie rod end at steering knuckle.Did you grab each tire in a bear hug and check for play by rotating it left/right around it's steering axis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 i agree you dont have a rack issue. Racks have a differnt failure mode. I think you have bad bushings, now that you have explaioned the struts better. They seem ok. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
destey Posted November 1, 2005 Author Share Posted November 1, 2005 destey, expound on this comment a bit. To me it would imply that the alignment is changing dynamically ala tie rod ends. Did you grab each tire in a bear hug and check for play by rotating it left/right around it's steering axis? I was thinking the same thing, except that worn pinion/rack gears were the culprit. The bear hug test yielded no issues, the steering wheel turned accordingly. About the understeer/oversteer. Say I enter a constant corner (same degree turn throughout), I'll turn the wheel so far, the car will turn, but immediately drift outward towards the yellow lines, forcing me to compensate with more turn. Now that I've leveled out (but only for a split second), the car then steers too much and I'm closing in on the white line. This struggle cycles throughout the corner. My guess (I haven't gotten under the car to check the suggestions since I first posted) is that this part of my steering problem is due to worn sway bar bushings (and whatever else is wrong exacerbates the problem). Time to go outside and get up and personal with my steering system. I'll keep everyone updated. thanks again for the assistance everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handtool Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I replaced my rack bushings with the exact ones pictured above with no improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
destey Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 I replaced my rack bushings with the exact ones pictured above with no improvement. The rack bushings on mine look good with no movement. Do you hear a clicking / knocking noise when you turn the wheel back and forth quickly with the car on the ground? I do. Looks liks subaru has a TSB out about this problem, about August 2001 . Anyone have the text of it? What about reman racks? Do they just replace seals or do they put in new pinion and rack gears? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Was there ever any resolution on this issue? I'm suffering from something very similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
destey Posted April 3, 2006 Author Share Posted April 3, 2006 Was there ever any resolution on this issue? I'm suffering from something very similar. I can tell the replacement steering rack is much tighter than the original one, but there is still the poor handling issue. The easiest way to explain it is this; Holding the wheel straight, the car gets pulled to the left or the right, depending on the surface of the road. My parents 2001 Legacy, and my old '95 do the same thing, but to a much lesser degree. There is some freeplay in the ball joints, shown by the pry-bar test. Is this handling issue due only to the balljoints? Or could it involve the control arm bushings too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 Well, I don't have much to offer excpet to investigate tramlining and maybe get the entire front up in the air and see what's moving that shouldn't. You can google diy alignment and see what some folks are up to. I couldn't find the EXACT link I wanted but a pasted a couple in below. edit; found it - with picture goodness!; http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645484 Thanks for keeping us informed. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=47 http://au.geocities.com/ozbrick850/wheels-diy-alignment.html http://www.rs25.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3739.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
destey Posted October 4, 2006 Author Share Posted October 4, 2006 You can google diy alignment and see what some folks are up to. I couldn't find the EXACT link I wanted but a pasted a couple in below.l Thanks for the alignment info. I'll give it a try next time it needs aligning. I don't think it needs aligning, as i got it aligned right after I replaced the steering rack (which was definitely bad). The poor handling is still present, albeit not as bad. Its been a while since I updated the situation, so here's what I've done so far to correct the problem: *New struts. Kyb gr-2's on all four. They were so stiff at the beginning, i got a headache driving my car. Since then they've softened up a bit. *30,000 mi used Rack and pinion w/tie rods. This helped somewhat. I'll elaborate below. *Balljoints. Again, this helped a little. *Alignment. This just pointed the wheel straight. He said he only had to adjust the toe a tiny bit. *Sprayed open gear oil on the following bushings: front control arms, sway bar, rear control arms. This surprisingly did the most to improve the handling. It still feels loose, but doesn't float all over the road, and doesn't understeer/oversteer in the corners as much. I suspect the bushings are worn and are causing the suspension to hang up slightly when it should be freely going with the road. Thus causing the drifting. Here's my wish list. Please comment... Control arm bushings Sway bar bushings, front and rear Sway bar link bushings, front and rear Rack bushings Sway Bar? The rear looks small and weak. The front isn't much better. I am going to a boneyard soon, do outback bars fit my '95 legacy sdn? Anyone got good sources for the first four items? Thanks much!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 you have been dealing with this for a long time and i'm sure you have checked the tire pressure repeatedly. i have a similar problem in my 97 obw. i was running over inflated tires for better gas mileage. but when i changed the tire pressure (1 or 2 pounds lower than spec) it improved dramaticly. so if you haven't tried it, i would. i'm sure lots of things contribute to this problem, so why not tire pressure. you might think back and see if the drifting problem started suddenly, around the time of new tires or slowwly over time? can you associate the problem with any specific change? good luck and keep us updated. Thanks for the alignment info. I'll give it a try next time it needs aligning. I don't think it needs aligning, as i got it aligned right after I replaced the steering rack (which was definitely bad). The poor handling is still present, albeit not as bad. Its been a while since I updated the situation, so here's what I've done so far to correct the problem: *New struts. Kyb gr-2's on all four. They were so stiff at the beginning, i got a headache driving my car. Since then they've softened up a bit. *30,000 mi used Rack and pinion w/tie rods. This helped somewhat. I'll elaborate below. *Balljoints. Again, this helped a little. *Alignment. This just pointed the wheel straight. He said he only had to adjust the toe a tiny bit. *Sprayed open gear oil on the following bushings: front control arms, sway bar, rear control arms. This surprisingly did the most to improve the handling. It still feels loose, but doesn't float all over the road, and doesn't understeer/oversteer in the corners as much. I suspect the bushings are worn and are causing the suspension to hang up slightly when it should be freely going with the road. Thus causing the drifting. Here's my wish list. Please comment... Control arm bushings Sway bar bushings, front and rear Sway bar link bushings, front and rear Rack bushings Sway Bar? The rear looks small and weak. The front isn't much better. I am going to a boneyard soon, do outback bars fit my '95 legacy sdn? Anyone got good sources for the first four items? Thanks much!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montana105 Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Dang it John-you beat me to the punch I was just gonna mention the same things,also could it be a bad tire(seperated) or miss matched sizes? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
destey Posted October 4, 2006 Author Share Posted October 4, 2006 you have been dealing with this for a long time and i'm sure you have checked the tire pressure repeatedly. i have a similar problem in my 97 obw. i was running over inflated tires for better gas mileage. but when i changed the tire pressure (1 or 2 pounds lower than spec) it improved dramaticly. so if you haven't tried it, i would. i'm sure lots of things contribute to this problem, so why not tire pressure. you might think back and see if the drifting problem started suddenly, around the time of new tires or slowwly over time? can you associate the problem with any specific change? good luck and keep us updated. I'll give lower pressure a try and see what happens. I too am running a little over, 33 for front and 31 for rear for the same reason. I have a handy dandy digital gauge from walmart, so it'll be simple to do. The poor handling had been with the car since I bought it at ~170k mi. I suspect the previous owner beat on it, as evidenced by a new(er) transmission and poor engine mounts. Thank you for the reply. I'll post my findings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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