WoodsWagon Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 I've driven a legacy missing a rack bushing, and it did the verry strange pause before steering while still giving wheel feedback. Wierdest feeling ever, ended up weaving a bit coming out of every corner. When you come out of a corner and let the wheel slide in your hands, does the wheel come back to straight? The steering angle Caster gives wheel returnability, that means the car wants to go in a straight line, and you have to force it to turn. If you are getting pulled around by the car wanting to turn, you may have too little caster. Things that affect caster on a mcphearson strut setup: bent strut, which would cause stiff and jerky ride. Strut cap moved forward in body (near impossible on the legacy's), or controll arm bushings shot. Have a friend stand next to the road and watch your front wheel. Drive up and hit the breaks to stop next to them. What they are watching is the relation from the wheel to the body, if it shifts backwards toward the rear of the wheel well, that's test one. Now hammer the gas to take off, the wheel shouldn't move forward in the wheel well at all. Have them look at both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Anybody live near you with a similar car? You have checked most of the usuals but tires can also have a big effect. If you can switch with a freind for a bit you can easily see if that makes a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
destey Posted October 7, 2006 Author Share Posted October 7, 2006 When you come out of a corner and let the wheel slide in your hands, does the wheel come back to straight? No, not even close. If you are getting pulled around by the car wanting to turn, you may have too little caster. [...] or controll arm bushings shot. What an insightful post. This seems like the most likely cause of my poor handling. I think I'll run those test. Thanks much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 No, not even close. What an insightful post. This seems like the most likely cause of my poor handling. I think I'll run those test. Thanks much! i was hoping for a caster correction as well, but from what i've read, there is no caster adjustment on these cars, not the 97 obw anyway. i hope i'm wrong but i think i'm right. so that leaves control arm bushings? are they hard to change? what do they look like , where are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishy Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 I'm just an amateur when it comes to fullsized mechanics but I know on my R/C racing truck if I dial out just a LITTLE too much toe-out it'll wander like nobody's business and it needs a touch of toe-in to help it track straight. I know I've heard the same said about fullsized cars as well. maybe your alignment is at the outside of the range for toe? I dunno... just an idea:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 OK - I'm reaching here but, is it possible you have non-original rims and the offset is improper for the car? Subarus might not like rims meant for Toyotas or Hondas. I dunno Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
destey Posted October 27, 2006 Author Share Posted October 27, 2006 OK - I'm reaching here but, is it possible you have non-original rims and the offset is improper for the car? Rims are stock. I was at a boneyard yesterday, and I checked out a couple of Sube's that had only control arms (everything else in the suspension was gone). I noticed something interesting. Each one didn't freely swivel. It had a point that it wanted to be at. I could move it up and down 4-5", but tension increased as I went. Is this from a malfunctioning bushing? Is this how the control arm is supposed to work? I've never seen the bushing's internals, but I assume the bolt that goes through the control arm is surrounded by a steel cylinder, which is surrounded by the rubber bushing material, then encased in the bracket or control arm (depending on whether its the front or rear mount point). On one end, if the bolt rusts to the cylinder, the bushing will disintegrate from the twisting. At the other end the cylinder could rust to the control arm causing the same thing. Am I right here? Thx, Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
destey Posted October 28, 2006 Author Share Posted October 28, 2006 I had it up on the lift today and the tires are worn on the insides. Might this have something to do with the handling? Would it be toe or camber? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dxrflyboy Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 The internal sleeve of the control arm bushings are bolted tightly to the chassis. The outer sleeve swivels with the arm. The rubber in between the sleeves flexes to allow movement. The bushing bolts should be tightened with the suspension loaded in the "at rest" ride height to minimize stress on the rubber. Tire wear on the inner edge is caused by either negative camber, toe out, or a combination of the two. Toe is the most critical tire wear angle, and if the inner edge wear is the same on both tires, toe out is the most likely problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankosolder2 Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 I had it up on the lift today and the tires are worn on the insides. Might this have something to do with the handling? Would it be toe or camber? Sounds like you might be on to something with the tire wear, but there's one other thing nobody's mentioned (unless I missed something in this long thread.) The REAR suspension can have a dramatic effect on steering and handling. If the toe is dynamically changing on a rear wheel/wheels as your G forces build up in a corner (due to a sloppy bushing in the rear control arms, etc) it can cause a whole bunch of strange handling effects. Also, is there any chance the subframe or other parts of the suspension have been tweaked by curbing? Good luck, Nathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
destey Posted October 30, 2006 Author Share Posted October 30, 2006 Tire wear on the inner edge is caused by either negative camber, toe out, or a combination of the two. Toe is the most critical tire wear angle, and if the inner edge wear is the same on both tires, toe out is the most likely problem. So I'm guessing I have the symptoms you've listed. Question is, is this caused by a bad control arm bushing, or poor suspension adjustment? I'll probably do the rack bushings in any case. Should I do the control arm bushings? When up the lift, I pryed against the rear point with a crow bar. It moved, but how much movement is ok? I checked a couple places online and the bushings are almost $70 a piece. Is it worth getting poly bushings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Poly bushings will give you more direct steering and throttle response. They may also make squeaky noises, and therefore require lubrication. If you do go with poly, you should really replace all the bushings in the front and rear. If say, you only replace the rear ones, you're likely to encounter unexpected oversteer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic/se Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 I had it up on the lift today and the tires are worn on the insides. Might this have something to do with the handling? Would it be toe or camber? That's negative camber and personnaly it helps on handling! unless you have too much wear, I won't bother with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Has the car had 'lowering' springs installed or been regularly and severely overloaded? That COULD lead to excessive neg. camber if the stock springs are sagging. New springs or installation of 'crash' (camber adjusting) bolts will correct it. I dunno Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
destey Posted October 31, 2006 Author Share Posted October 31, 2006 Has the car had 'lowering' springs installed or been regularly and severely overloaded? That COULD lead to excessive neg. camber if the stock springs are sagging. New springs or installation of 'crash' (camber adjusting) bolts will correct it.Carl Springs are stock. Never overloaded. Under suspicion: * front control arm bushings * steering rack bushings * toe in / out * rear suspension? The rear seems pretty tight, after prying with a crowbar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
destey Posted December 7, 2006 Author Share Posted December 7, 2006 I replaced the bushings in the control arm and the car handles 1000x better! No more delayed steering, wandering, or understeer/oversteer that was going on. I'd forgotten how well these cars handle I recommend this upgrade to anyone that thinks their handling is <100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montana105 Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 Hey that's great that you found the culprit and kept us informed. I can remember back in the early 70's driving with my dad on old bias ply tires that exhibited the same exact conditions your post originally started with. Do you know if the replaced bushings have corrected the inside wear on your tires you expressed long ago in this thread? I'm curious because my Jeep is starting to eat the inside tread and so far evrything seems tight and the alignment checks okay. Thanks- John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
destey Posted December 8, 2006 Author Share Posted December 8, 2006 Do you know if the replaced bushings have corrected the inside wear on your tires you expressed long ago in this thread? I'm curious because my Jeep is starting to eat the inside tread and so far evrything seems tight and the alignment checks okay.Thanks- John Yeah, it could be the bushings. I haven't done enough driving to know if the wear problem is fixed, though I suspect its corrected. I'm about to put the winter tires on, so I'll send an update when I've driven on them for a bit. Does the jeep handle ok, or is the handling delayed (understeer then oversteer)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 I replaced the bushings in the control arm and the car handles 1000x better! No more delayed steering, wandering, or understeer/oversteer that was going on. I'd forgotten how well these cars handle I recommend this upgrade to anyone that thinks their handling is <100% where did you get the bushings and how hard was it to do? did you have much problem getting the old out or new in? was it just one rubber bushing per side or were there more pieces to replace than that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 where did you get the bushings and how hard was it to do? did you have much problem getting the old out or new in? was it just one rubber bushing per side or were there more pieces to replace than that? Would like to know the answers to those questions also. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montana105 Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Destey, the Jeep tracks fine,responds well to driver input,just eatting the inside of the tire. Rotate every 3000 or so. Thanks,John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
destey Posted December 10, 2006 Author Share Posted December 10, 2006 where did you get the bushings and how hard was it to do? did you have much problem getting the old out or new in? was it just one rubber bushing per side or were there more pieces to replace than that? I also did the steering rack bushings since, which improved the handling a small bit more. I ordered it from renickmotorsports.com. The final cost for two rear control arm bushings and steering rack bushings were $125. It was the cheapest I could find anywhere, but still seemed a bit much for what you get. The poly bushing came in two halves with a metal sleeve. I reused the nut and the two backing plates. Here's what I did: First removed the retaining nut. Removed the two mounting bolts. Used a crowbar to move the control arm enough to slide the bushing/bracket off. Pressed the bushing out of the bracket. I thought I might have run into trouble when it came to removing the bushing from the control arm, but the bushing was not rusted to the shaft and slid right off. I suggest spraying some PB on the nut beforehand to ease in removal. Mine was pretty tight (though I live in salt central). There's another bushing on the front of the control arm that I did not replace. Mine fronts seemed ok, whereas the rears were definitely bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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