Total Engine Failure at 107k?

[snaffle]

Got a 96 legacy wagon 2.2L, tried to pass another vehicle, check engine light flashed as I was trying to pass, then felt it was off time..max rpm was 5000, then lost power, heard grinding sound. Now told my engine is Gone from authorized Subaru dealer.

 

I have got 107K miles, babied her her whole life. They wouldn't even run a computer check on her, told me after tow to my local dealer from the failure on the interstate not worth it to check codes, as when they got it from the tow and tried to start her, sounded like internal engine failure.

 

They say I need a new engine, all service done her whole life, is this possible?

 

same passing thing happened a few times, they told me (the dealer) not to worry about it..as check eng light would go away after a few days.

 

what the hell?

 

-Prince

[TheBrian]

Not worth it? It takes *less than 60 seconds* to read your check engine light. You can borrow the tool you need to do it from AutoZone for a $160 fully-refundable deposit.

 

Find out exactly what they say is wrong with it, i.e. in what manner your engine allegedly failed, and let us know.

 

You don't need a new engine installed by the dealer. If your engine is actually totalled, I'd look in to getting a rebuilt engine from, say, CCR, and see how much the dealer vs. an independent mechanic wants to install it.

[svxpert]

when was the timing belt done? oil changed/checked at service intervals?

 

 

 

Got a 96 legacy wagon 2.2L, tried to pass another vehicle, check engine light flashed as I was trying to pass, then felt it was off time..max rpm was 5000, then lost power, heard grinding sound. Now told my engine is Gone from authorized Subaru dealer.

 

I have got 107K miles, babied her her whole life. They wouldn't even run a computer check on her, told me after tow to my local dealer from the failure on the interstate not worth it to check codes, as when they got it from the tow and tried to start her, sounded like internal engine failure.

 

They say I need a new engine, all service done her whole life, is this possible?

 

same passing thing happened a few times, they told me (the dealer) not to worry about it..as check eng light would go away after a few days.

 

what the hell?

 

-Prince

[zyewdall]

I suppose it's possible. Even though these engines usually last 300k with the occasional replacement head gasket, water pump, etc... A carrier bearing could have died or a rod come loose. Sometimes you win (or lose) the one in a million odds. I'd make them tell you what is broken though. I think that everyone on this forum would like to know, at the very least.

 

And I'd personally tell the service tech that he's not worth working at a subaru dealer if he won't take 60 seconds to pull the codes. Even if he thinks that it won't tell anything (or if he thinks every code possible will be thrown now that it's thrown), refusing to do something that easy when the customer wants it is just piss poor customer service. Especially the fact that they refused to read it back before it died, when the code could have told you what was about to happen. The check engine light is not an ornamental display just for the amusement of dealer techs. Many things that it indicates are indeed ignoreable for a while, but many of them also are very important and shouldn't be dismissed.

 

Z

[friendly_jacek]

same passing thing happened a few times, they told me (the dealer) not to worry about it..as check eng light would go away after a few days.

 

In my line of work it is called malpractice.

Clearly, I'm not a mechanic.

[cookie]

That would be my first question and my next move would be to look at the timeing belt.

[deerhunter]

You must have rainy days in order to appreciate the sunny ones, and the same is true of professionals as well. As the grinding noises do indicate a mechanical failure, pulling codes can't hurt. The best way to proceed, if you are paying a mechanic by the hour, would be to pull the timing covers and take a look. Hopefully your problem is just a blown tensioner and a dead belt. If all looks well then the next step will be to pull the covers to check the valve train. If there is still no visible problem then you do have problems. It could be internal but do not rule out the possibility of a driveline problem. I once bought back an '84 Turbowagon from a customer but had to return it when his 'blown motor' turned out to be a release bearing adjusted right through the pressure plate.

 

When he spoke to his mechanic ( the same one that adjusted the clutch ) and spoke of the horrific noises, he was told that his motor was shot and that such an old car was not worth repairing. I hope that your problems are as minor, and it might help to talk to anyone in your area who drives a suby to see if you can find a private mechanic who works on nothing but subies.

[nipper]

If its a sudden mechanical failure, there may not be any codes to throw. Dont be so fast to jump down a mechanics throat, remebr folks, we dont have the car in front of us, and a code will not tell you why the engine let go. People rely on the CEL and computer and give them sometimes way too much credit then they deserve. If i was the tech, the car wouldn't start or was making horrific noises, i would say the same thing. having 100 codes is just as usless as having none.

Now that being said, unless the car is seized, or has a connecting rod haning out the side of the block, or hemorging oil, a first thing would be a compression test and see if anything is still connnected to anything. Massive sudden failure is usually an oiling/lubrication failure of some kind, or a timing belt letting go, and that wont throw a code.

I dont remeber if this is an interferance engine or not.

 

nipper

[zyewdall]

If its a sudden mechanical failure, there may not be any codes to throw. Dont be so fast to jump down a mechanics throat, remebr folks, we dont have the car in front of us, and a code will not tell you why the engine let go.

nipper

 

True. But I'm assuming it's the same mechanic who refused to check the code earlier before it died.

[Gnuman]

the 96 EJ22 is not interference. That happened in 97.

[nipper]

ok then ild go with lubrication system failure or lubricant failure. Really the best way to find out what happened is to get youe engine oil analyzed. From there it will tell you whats in the oil, if there are any contaminants (antifreeze, gasoline), and has the oil been actually changed. Wht metal is there alot of in the oil (did it chew up a bearing)

 

 

nipper

[snaffle]

Hey Guys,

 

Thanks for all your posts on my thread here. I was very busy dealing with the situation so here is a quick update.

 

I am getting a used engine for replacement through Japan Engines CA, imported from Japan these engines should have between 35-45K miles. I think this is the best choice at this time. Rebuilds nearly total the car as would be rebuilding the original or buying a new roo engine. This engine is 1200 bucks delivered.

 

Dealer is doing the install and loaned me a new 06 Forester without charge while work is being done, free's me from the $150/wk for a rental! I have already put 800 miles on her! Nice Ride!

 

Failed Core is mine, no return necessary, so I'll be happy to see what the heck happened, at least check the timing belt and all.

 

I have kept the car fully maintained Mobil-1 every 7500, and all other service at correct intervals. I have only had the car since 2002 (60K used). I run my roo to work and back 100 miles daily, all easy highway miles, and not high speed. Timing belt was due in another 10k as it was replaced at 58K just before I bought her in 2002. Engine still runs but deep internal clunking, like maybe cam shaft according to certified roo mechanic. said not worth them tearing her open as the cost is better applied to just replace with a used engine. Dealer allowing me to purchase engine myself to avoid their mark-up.

Sounds like dealer is being cool to me, this after getting much more from Service Mgr rather than Desk tech. Dealer price to install about 1K, most other shops in town can't beat it by more than 100 bucks, so going with dealer to install.

 

Will update this thread upon learning any new data. As a new user here, Thanks so much for the quick feedback!! I'm happy to join your family of roo owners here! Would Like to discuss the symptoms that led to this premature engine failure in a new thread when I get some time. Maybe inspecting failed engine will answer some questions on what happened.

 

-Snaffle

[nipper]

Just for the hell of it.... write mobile one.. if you can prove that you always used it and have all the receipts, At worst they wil ask for anoil sample to analyze and tell you it was something else, and best... who knows?

Just costs you a stamp

 

nipper

[snaffle]

Thanks Nipper,

 

I was told Mobil-1 is a good choice to use. Considering I got the car at 60K and this whole thing happened at at around 109K I can't believe using Mobil-1 and following Subaru's recommended interval of 7500 per oil change (using regular oil) could have been an issue here. I will re-address this issue as to the previous engine problems that may have led to the premature engine failure in a new thread as I think something else may have led to this failure, such as computer changing timing due to a sensor failure and then continuing driving at high RPMS while engine was running out of time, almost forcing an engine failure due to trying to make her work while a problem was happening. remember the symptom of engine running bad with warning light had happened in 3 previous instances, this was the first time I needed to force continued operation at high speed to avoid an potential accident unlike previous times when I was able to back of the gas and RPM's and slow her down. Previous check engine code after one of those instances was failure of Nox Sensor which was replaced just 5k prior to this incident.

 

This incident was the first time I tried to use hard acceleration after that sensor was replaced. (Hard Acceleration=passing at say 70-80 MPH while original speed was like 65 MPH at 5k RPM or so at the new speed) Symptoms were similar as in previous instances just before engine failure, only thing different was I needed to keep going this time at high rpm (5k or so) to avoid a potential accident, as in I needed to pass to avoid head on as I could not back down as another vehicle was also passing just behind me, knowing she was running bad with warning light blinking. We barely made it. I may have forced a failure running her at high RPM while engine malfunction was occurring. Altho Dealer says you can't blow an engine even if the computer has changed the timing or the engine was electronically not running correct. I wonder?

 

Again thanks for the reply!

 

-Snaffle

[WoodsWagon]

These engines are tougher than nails, so one blowing up at less than 200k is notable. Being a cheapskate myself, I'd want to do more diagnostics myself. The only thing that the computer could have influenced would be the injection. Possibly running the engine lean and melting a piston? The blinking check engine light is generally a bad thing, It means that the computer doesn't know whats going on and catilytic converter damage is most probably happening.

I have seen a 2.2 legacy running fine with the check engine light on though, and it would blink during acceleration. It belongs to Konrad, and when I asked him what it was complaining about, he listed a multitude of failed sensors and codes thrown. Even so, that car passed me no problem when I was doing 90 on the highway.

I would want to do a comp check and a code readout if the engine still runs. What drivability issues does it have now? Any coolant loss? Oil consumption?

[snaffle]

91Loyale,

 

Engine has been removed as dealer was prepping car for new (used) engine as mentioned above.

 

Thanks for sharing a blinking light indicates computer can't deal with the situation, as during the incident I explained, I felt something was bad big time, but had to continue, forcing her to keep going. I have not yet been able to inspect the failed engine. The experience just before I was able to pull off the road..Blinking check engine light, intense vibration from engine compartment as if she was off-time or missing badly (the whole car was vibrating badly), and then a deep grinding sound after I slowed after the pass and tried to accelerate, almost like a sound of a "fan blade hitting the housing" or "old time experiences of an engine knocking badly after using low octane fuel" as if timing advance in older model cars was not working.

 

Like I said earlier, Dealer got the engine to run badly after it was towed to dealership but mechanic heard sounds deep internally indicating it was coming from around the camshaft. At this point, I again wonder if the engine running wrong and then forcing high RPMS may have led to this engine failure. And will it happen again with my new (used) engine if there is repeated problem in the electronics of my car that "told" the engine to run bad and thus created engine failure because I could not back off the gas at a moment of clearing traffic to avoid a potential accident?

 

It may have been just a bad engine that could not handle the heavy load thus leading to the computer activating the check engine light in that situation due to it's mechanical condition. I guess this issue has not been documented much as a typical result or problem.

 

I'll do my best to find out what I can find in the old core, even if I have to bring the core home and open her up myself. (I'm not a mechanic). I do have the old engine tho as I don't need to return the core. I may seek advice on what to look for or whether this whole deal is worth digging in to.

 

Thanks again,

 

-Snaffle

[nipper]

Thanks Nipper,

 

I was told Mobil-1 is a good choice to use. Considering I got the car at 60K and this whole thing happened at at around 109K I can't believe using Mobil-1 and following Subaru's recommended interval of 7500 per oil change (using regular oil) could have been an issue here. I will re-address this issue as to the previous engine problems that may have led to the premature engine failure in a new thread as I think something else may have led to this failure, such as computer changing timing due to a sensor failure and then continuing driving at high RPMS while engine was running out of time, almost forcing an engine failure due to trying to make her work while a problem was happening. remember the symptom of engine running bad with warning light had happened in 3 previous instances, this was the first time I needed to force continued operation at high speed to avoid an potential accident unlike previous times when I was able to back of the gas and RPM's and slow her down. Previous check engine code after one of those instances was failure of Nox Sensor which was replaced just 5k prior to this incident.

 

 

-Snaffle

 

There is no sensor failure anywhere on the engine that can cause a mechanical failure and the car still be running.

7500 miles ! i dont care what your running, that is way too long between oil changes. i would recomend at most 5000 with a synthetic. At 5000 miles the additives are mostly broken down.

Possible failure modes at road speed is thorwing something or spining a brearung. Most common cause for spinning a beearing is oil failure, from oil breakdown or gas contamination, It is possible the long interval is the reason for the failure, this is why i am against them, this could have been prevented with a shorter interval, or even had zero affect.

 

nipper

[ccrinc]

A bad knock sensor can, and without repair (spell that "replacement"), WILL cause an engine to fail! The knock sensor effects the mechanical workings of the engine.

The EA82 turbo engines were especially prone to failure from having a bad (or aftermarket) knock sensor.

 

As for metal in the oil, "analysis" is over the top for that. A simple draining of some will show you immediately if there's any kind of metal in the oil. Don't need a lab for that!

 

IMHO, these are two things that fall into the KISS principle category: Keep It Simple (subsitute your favorite "S" word here).

 

 

Emily

http://www.ccrengines.com

[nipper]

Wouldn't a bad knock sensor produce driveability issues way before that point?

 

 

 

nipper

[snaffle]

With all due respect to Nipper's last post,

 

Considering how many people run engines 10's of thousands of miles with no engine failure because of the the fact they never change their oil regularly , let alone I used Mobil-1 which is way above "regular" oil standards, there is no way I am convinced that regularly changing my oil at 7500 intervals from when I got the car at 60k to 109k as prescribed by Subaru in it's owners manual where it just states 7500 is ok for even using "standard oil", that the interval I chose of changing my oil at 7500 interval considering my usage of the vehicle had any adverse affect on this issue.

 

I would be open to other comments. Open highway driving is the least taxing on an engine. In my 50 mile one-way each day I stop and start maybe 4 times, no idling and stop and start activity. Even if I were using regular oil I would be in accordance to Subaru's standards of a 7500 mile oil changes considering my usage of my vehicle, let alone I'm using an oil that is designed for 10,000 miles even if on schedule one of the manufacturer's requirements.

 

Considering the history of how reliable the Subaru engine is, I could have run her on the same regular motor oil for the time period stated above without one change and never suffered an engine failure "due to motor oil breakdown" as suggested by nipper, especially total miles of 109K on the engine. If the 2.2L engine would fail because of oil breakdown because I chose a 7500 mile interval as indicated in the Subaru Owner's Manual for my usage why don't we hear of a complete failure report from Subaru? Hell they got oils now guaranteed for 10,000 miles between changes. Even my authorized dealer told me 7500 was standard for my type of driving, let alone I used Mobil-1 which he commented I could have gone 10K between changes and that that was not the issue here.

 

We have come along way from the old V-8's that needed an oil change every 3 months or 3,000 miles. Especially with today's modern synthethic oils and modern engines.

 

I would hope this thread would lead to a more realistic result. But again I appreciate all input. I could go on on how I got 350K on a GM that I did 6K oil changes on in the past 5 years as per owners manual and never had a engine problem. Hell I sold her cause the body rusted so bad. So please don't give me the "Oh you gotta change your oil every 3k stuff", ok? READ THE OWNERS MANUAL. Unless you want to support all the little oil change businesses in your area that is hoping you'll come in and spend 30 bucks every couple months.

 

Again I respect Nippers opinion, as we are all entitled to an Opinion. I may be a new user here but I have owned and operated cars since 1972. I am not a mechanic. This is not an oil issue, let's move forward please and address the details I have described. I really don't want this thread to be a debate on how often we should change our oil. Changing Oil is one of the biggest scams in our country. Not to mention a waste of our resources, because of ignorance. Please.

 

-Snaffle

[TheBrian]

You can get a used oil analysis done for $20, for example, at:

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/standard_analysis.html

 

If your oil looks okay, maybe all or parts of your engine can be sold as used. I don't know if there's a market for used heads with 110k miles on them.

 

Out of curiousity, what viscosity oil were you using?

[richierich]

I am interested in knowing what behind the timing belt covers. I have seen EA82 and EJ22 engine with terrible noises that end up being idler bearings or tensioner bears for the timing belts.

 

 

This is my opinion, but you are free to change your oil when ever you feel like it, but I do it within 3000-5000 depending on driving habits. Usually I find that at 1000, no oil consumption, 2000 miles no oil consumption, 3000, down 1/2 to 1 quart. That tells me the oil is breaking down and burning itself. In addition if you pull the dipstick and it looks dirty, then the oil has already broken down to some point.

[blitz]

The EJ-22 is probably the easiest on oil of any engine ever made, although it's not unusual to have a bit of consumption on certain individual Sube motors for whatever reason.

 

...tried to pass another vehicle, check engine light flashed as I was trying to pass, then felt it was off time..max rpm was 5000, then lost power, heard grinding sound.

'96 is interference right? If so, the answer is most likely contained in your observation above ...engine began jumping cam timing in steps, one tooth at a time, until it banged a valve with a piston. The torturous film-projector path through the idlers/tensioner is the major weak link in an otherwise stellar motor, and if any one of the idler bearings goes out, the belt looses proper tension. Maybe it holds timing for a little while, maybe it doesn't.

 

You're not gonna know what happened until you pull the motor apart.

[cookie]

My experience with my 2.5 mirrors Richie's comment. Unless I keep an eye on it at about 3,000 miles the oil seems to go quickly. At about 3,000 miles I just topped up the Mobil 1 15-50 I have been running as an experiment. Useage has been about half what I used with dino.

I have also heard some truly horrendous noises that did not turn out to be internal.

But I can also see the mechanic's point, the engine replacement is so cheap that he cannot justify tearing it down to find out the details. He may also have heard the noise before and be convinced he knows what it is.

Still, if it was your own carand your own time it would be good to know just what happened.

[1 Lucky Texan]

I think a simple compression test, inspection of the cam timing and maybe dropping the pan could narrow down the problem a lot without being TOO expensive.