Total Engine Failure at 107k?

[snaffle]

First off, thanks for all of the new posts.

 

As of today, Still awaiting replacement engine from Japan Engines CA should be here tomorrow (Friday). Overall I still have not personally spoke with THE mechanic who is doing the work, so still relating news from dealer, as in Service Manager.

 

News today includes Dealer giving me some more verbal info on initial status of original engines failure and the fact he told me I could work it out with the mechanic to dig a lil deeper into the failed engine to discover why she failed.

 

Latest is that the old engine is removed from my car and nothing has been done to explore that engine other than the original tests prior to pulling it, so far today I learned failed engine would run after tow to dealer, barely, had a real tight spot at idle. Compression check showed one Cyl was dead (no compression), which leads me to believe why mechanic immediately knew severe internal damage (as previously stated). After we dig deeper maybe we can figure out how the previous engine malfunctions (related to a malf Nox sensor) as stated in my prev posts led to this failure. Lets restate the first replacement used engine that arrived had no EGR on it (wrong engine) so thats why we are waiting for another imported engine with EGR. But for now lets update this thead...

 

The bottom line is the Service Mgr said if I wanted I could dig into my old core and even work out a private deal with the mechanic doing my job to maybe dig into the old engine a lil bit. I'm sure we will get some answers, but for now KNOW replacing the engine is the main goal for now. The original core is mine and I'm just as curious as the rest of you, and am willing to pay a few extra bucks to dig into the old engine a bit to see what failed. Again let's face it, that engine is gone.

 

So now, let's look at the new posts since my last comments and I'll share my response to each post. I'm new here so I have not mastered the code to show quotes, especially from multiple users, so bear with me. I appreciate the comments and hopefully we may discover something here.

 

TheBrian talked about Oil Analysis. He asked what I was using, I use Mobil-1 5-30. I was told by dealer engine is on the floor and no oil has been looked at yet in the core. I will certainly check this when I do my old engine inspection when the job is done at dealership. I am focused now on getting my new (used) engine replaced and get back on the road with my own car before I go deeper into the old engine at this point. Will certainly share my findings.

 

Richierich commented on what is behind timing covers. We will find out when I do an evaluation of my old core. For now we do not know as I have not authorized extra (official) labor to dig deeper into the old motor yet. We'll do a looksee after I get my car back on the road. Comments included terrible noise from maybe just the timing belt area. Engine still ran after tow to dealer, and initial compression check looks like maybe timing belt area may be ok (seeings as stated above 1 cyl had no comp) we'll see when I dig deeper into my old core. Rich also shared about oil breakdown possibilty as in Ref to Nippers post about intervals. Again we don't know how the oil looks yet in failed engine, but I will say in past 3 years (as I put 50K on her during that time) using Mobil-1 5W-30 I only saw a drop of 1/2 QT or so on stick after 7500, the interval I use considering my mainly highway usage. Will admit prior to this event, I did see a lil oil leakage on floor about 1 month prior to THIS event as she never leaked more than a drop or two prior. Leak drops seemed to recently appear from front of engine at front cover. I have never had to add oil between 7500 mile oil changes. Thanks Rich!

 

blitz commented about how easy a 2.2 was on oil consumption, also asked about my engine being interfearence as far as timing belt failure. My understanding is that THIS engine CAN blow a timing belt and be OK, not an issue here. Unlike the 2.5 engines. He went on to explain how I may have had a jumped timing belt that led to the failure. As a Piston could then bang a valve. Hmm, still possible I suppose. again a examination of timing belt first will reveal if this was an issue in this issue. Let's remember the engine still ran at the dealership after tow. Will report findings on this thread when I finally get a chance to dig into the old core. Recall the timing belt still had 10K before scheduled replacement as it was replaced at 58K thus (120K or so for next replace) Thanks Blitz!

 

cookie had comments about oil usage which revealed Mobil-1 is superior over other oils also commented on how mechanic may have known right away what type of engine failure occurred upon firing her up after tow to dealer. I agree. Also suggested I dig into the old core to find out what really happened. Obviously the compression check showed we have internal damage, so that again clears his apprasial but shows again oil breakdown was probably NOT the issue here. Again I can't wait to look at my old engine and do some inspection! He also commented on the issue of paying to dig deep into old engine rather than just replacing her. As I have stated, best choice is to go ahead and let's get another engine. I'll pay something to dig deeper into the old engine, but for now let's focus on getting my car back on the road. It does cost to have someone dig into your failed engine! Dealer made that clear. Once you know you have a dead engine, unless you wanna spend bucks or dive into it yourself, just let it go and move forward. I personally wanna find out what the hell happened and am willing to pay a few bucks more to find out. Thanks cookie!

 

Finally 1 Lucky Texan dropped a quick line of doing a compression check which was previously done but unknown to me when I first posted my first thread here. Also suggested inspection of Cam timing and droppin the pan. I hope to do at least that Lucky even if I have to twist a bolt myself to discover how my '96 Roo Legacy Wagon could have this kind of failure at 107K! remember I got her at 60K in 2002.

 

In closing for Tonight, Thank You again for all of Your Comments!!

 

I still want to eventually address the repeated problem I stated in earlier posts (in this thread) regarding the documented and repeated problem at hard acceleration while passing that I still feel may have led to this engine failure especially as if you read my earlier posts, This issue almost mimicked the prior unusual condition just before this failure due to the fact that I had to keep speed up THIS time, unlike the other times when I backed off the gas.

 

I still believe there may be an electronic problem that may lead to a unbalanced engine condition that throws the engine off time so badly that continued high RPM's will lead to a mechanical engine failure if the driver does not immediately back off the gas. I think my prior posts in this THREAD will give you the details into that belief. I will certainly be aware of that issue upon getting my car back with its' new (used) engine. As for now I openly accept your comments on this whole issue and will update as I can.

 

-Snaffle

[The Dude]

Actually, maybe the mechanic was trying to do Snaffle a favor. Don't forget, some dealerships charge a fairly substantial fee to pull a code. The chances are that the code will be of little use in this particular case. Snaffle can always pull the code for FREE on his own at Auto Zone. Also, the focus of the CEL are the clean air regs, not diagnostics. I'd probably start with the dipstick, catastropic oil loss will always ruin your whole day.

[snaffle]

Ok, here's the latest scoop on my engine failure.

 

I stopped by the dealer today and found my used engine (From Japan Engine Inc California) had not arrived yet.

 

I had a few minutes to talk to the mechanic who has serviced my vehicle for past 2 years at the dealership. He has been a certified Subaru mechanic for over 30 years. This was the first time I saw him face to face as I always just dealt with the Service techs in the arrival bay prior to this. To get right down to it he told me the car did throw a mis-fire code. They did check the code after all, so the service "tech" was wrong about not checking for a thrown code.

 

He also explained one cylinder was very low compression, yet the engine still ran but was mis-firing badly. He also said he believes the engine had some serious internal damage and it was not worth tearing it down to try to discover what happened, except for curiousity. The fact is the engine is dead and needs replacement. He said tearing it down is just "spinning your wheels" and is just going to cost me more money. Plus stated if you just look at one part of it, you can not know for sure what really happened here. I can see his point on that. I still think it would be interesting to at least pull the timing belt cover.

 

He told me Mobil-1 is superior over dino oils and said after servicing the car the past 2 years himself my 7500 mile interval was not the issue as far as oil breakdown, he commented "you have certainly stayed up to date on all your service".

 

Regarding the past experience of mis-firing at passing, which created a nox sensor code last time, sensor was replaced and he believes THIS engine faiure is NOT related to the past issues. He believes as servicing the engine himself last 2 years, he had heard some pings and uncool sounds in my motor last several oil changes but they were not apparant enough to warrant being overly concerned.

 

Lets remember I bought this car used at 60K so he commented we have no idea on how the engine was maintained prior. He also explained to me that how a ten year old car is going to start becoming an issue to it's other parts...suspension, brakes, exhaust system etc and that many people want to keep holding on to their "original" car because they are so happy with it yet there comes a time when service issues finally become a burdan to keep hanging on to it. I explained I paid book for the car only 2 years ago and at this point considering her overall excellent condition, it just was not worth it to take that loss and upgrade to a new vehicle.

 

Guess he also shared my transmission gasket was beginning to leak.

 

As he was locking up his tool box he started to become shorter and shorter with my questions, as it was quitting time and it is Friday.

 

Bottom line for today was Ok, let's not waste anymore money on the dead engine, let's just get my used engine installed and get back on the road. If prior passing problem mis-fire with check engine light re-appears he concurred we need to address it but does not believe that issue was related or caused this engine failure.

 

I may need to START a new THREAD to discuss..the choice of replacing your failed engine with a Japanese Imported Used Engine. As I have some questions on this issue. Some of my concerns were stated in my earlier posts.

Or we can just go on in THIS thread from here, as it is related to the original engine failure.

 

I'd like to hear from the members here I personally took the time to address in my last post as I did individually post specific replies to each member who wrote. In addition the latest post from Dude seems to have been answered and commented on in this post.

 

I will say I am gaining confidence overall from my dealer who has been servicing my roo for the past two years as again they set me up in a brand new 2006 Forester to use during this ordeal without charge. We are on week two of me buying my own used engine, as first one was wrong one shipped and still awaiting the correct one. I just hit 1000 miles on the demo the dealer provided me as it had something like 9 or 93 miles on it when they gave it to me 2 weeks ago to use as a loaner.

 

As far as the Imported Used Engine from Japan, my first concern is what parts from my old engine should be switched over to the used imported used engine? Additionally What parts should I keep from my old engine?

 

I already know the basics as in replace both crank seals, and install a new Timing Belt. I'll be happy to start a new thread on "replacing failed engine with Japan Import" if needbe. The warranty is 6 mos on this used engine but also states to replace waterpump, check radiator pressure, replace temp sensor, replace rad hoses. It states their warranty would be voided if I didnt at least do what I just stated above. Any comments on this?

 

Thanks again fellas.

 

-Snaffle

[Strakes]

Lets remember I bought this car used at 60K so he commented we have no idea on how the engine was maintained prior.

-Snaffle

 

Yeah, you can add "Maybe the previous owner beat the crap out of it". Who knows if the previous owner let it run low on oil a few times or ever changed it. Who knows if his teenage son drag raced his buddies on the weekends in it low on oil. There are a lot of what ifs. I'm glad you're okay and that the old Subaru was able to give her all in getting you out of a situation that could have resulted in injury or death. Best of luck on getting your car on the road soon.

[1 Lucky Texan]

Yeah good luck.

I did feel a little guilty at encouraging you to spend MORE money just to satisfy my curiosity.

As for fixing an old car, I've always felt that the majority of problems can usually be fixed for the equivalent of 1 to a 'few' car payments. Yeah, its a bummer to have a major failure - and worse to have 2-3 in one year, but its also a bummer to be paying $300 a month for a car payment. And remember, its a used car the instant you take delivery. Its really only a new car when its on the dealer's lot!

 

If it serves your purpose and can be reasonably reliable - just fix it!

[cookie]

I have heard nothing but good about JDM used engines. Is that from one of the places here in the SF area?

I have actually driven used cars that were from junkyards in Japan in New Zealand. They felt like new until they had been flogged in Kiwi for a few years.

Rumor has it that they are required to be junked at 50 or 60,000 miles which is just broken in for a Subie.

And when doing the fitting I would do water pump, seals, timing belt, tensioner, the stupid plastic oil slinger on the rear of the engine, and clutch kit if manual. At this time it would be good to change the usual sensors.

I would keep the entire spare engine in the garage and you can buy $20 worth of tools and tear it down and learn something.

But then one of the promient features in my garage is a spare Pontiac engine.

[DerFahrer]

I read through most of this thread and I'm still not seeing one good reason why this engine blew up.

 

7500-mile oil changes? Definitely not the problem. Subaru engines (while it is definitely advisable to change the oil often) seem to get away with long oil-change intervals, especially the EJ22. If you're using Mobil-1, then that just helps your argument.

 

Beating on the engine? I doubt it. I know of EJ22's that have been beat on hard practically the whole time they were running for 150k miles. Hell, there's a guy on the 90-94 Legacy board with a 91 turbo with 424,000 miles, that he boosted up and continued to drive hard.

 

Timing belt? Nope. EJ22's went interference in 97. I have the EndWrench article to prove it.

 

Sensors? It would have to be something like a cam-angle sensor coming loose and advancing timing a whole bunch, or a knock sensor going dead like Emily suggested (which argument has its own holes, because as best I know, the ECU defaults to a static retarded timing curve when it doesn't get a knock-sensor reading) or the O2 sensor not reading AFM's correctly and leaning the fuel curve out... None of this happens on a regular basis either.

 

I seriously can only explain this as a freak accident, a one-in-a-million incident like others have suggested.

[ShawnW]

Youre probably going to be waiting a while for a used 96 model year engine, if in fact they provide a truly 96 model year engine.

 

The exhaust manifold is specific to that year. That is the single port exhaust found only in the 96 year 2.2 and the late 95 2wd Sedan 49 state edition.

The engine is NOT interference. That started in 97 with the US exception being the EG33 (SVX ENGINE).

The EJ22 non turbo was not sold in a Japanese Market car. Japan's cars have the EJ20 in them, something we didnt see stateside until the turbocharged models came out in around 2002 in the WRX I believe.

 

What should be swapped over? Take the replacement engine down to the longblock and then swap your intake manifold onto it. If the Used engine includes an intake manifold, ac comp, ps pump, etc just save those for a rainy day.

[blitz]

blitz commented about how easy a 2.2 was on oil consumption, also asked about my engine being interfearence as far as timing belt failure. My understanding is that THIS engine CAN blow a timing belt and be OK, not an issue here. Unlike the 2.5 engines. He went on to explain how I may have had a jumped timing belt that led to the failure. As a Piston could then bang a valve. Hmm, still possible I suppose. again a examination of timing belt first will reveal if this was an issue in this issue. Let's remember the engine still ran at the dealership after tow. Will report findings on this thread when I finally get a chance to dig into the old core. Recall the timing belt still had 10K before scheduled replacement as it was replaced at 58K thus (120K or so for next replace) Thanks Blitz!

Actually my "easy on oil" comment was in regards to oil life, not oil consumption. Long drain intervals tend to lull drivers into NOT checking the level regularly.

 

My second comment was soley to distinguish between belt failure and idler/tensioner failure. I see horror stories all the time about the idlers/tensioner failing. Even if the engine is non-interference, the idlers/tensioner can still fail causing the belt to jump time.

 

Since there'll be no investigation, no one will ever know what happened to your engine.

[blitz]

The exhaust manifold is specific to that year. That is the single port exhaust found only in the 96 year 2.2 and the late 95 2wd Sedan 49 state edition.

The engine is NOT interference. That started in 97 with the US exception being the EG33 (SVX ENGINE).

Shawn, my '00 OBS has single-port exhaust.

 

The info on non-interference is well-taken.

[snaffle]

Hello guys!

 

Good input and thanks for the posts. Thought I'd respond to the thread in regards to the latest posts.

 

First off I did chat with Japan Engine Inc in San Leandro CA today and found out the used Japanese engine they are sending me will work, as they did match it to my Vin and exact model, something was was not fully done with the first engine sent. Blame that on the "engine dealer" here in Omaha who obtained the engine for me as I did not realize I could deal directly with the importer in CA. The guy here in Omaha did not give Japan Engines in CA enough detailed information. So what WE learn here is if you ever BUY a used Japanese Imported Engine, just deal with them directly. In other words, avoid the middle-man who basically just made a phone call to order the engine and marked it up 200 bucks. I could have made the same call and had the engine directly sent to the dealer who is doing the install!

 

Now I'll respond directly to the latest posts:

 

Strakes wrote a nice piece that solidifies maybe "why" this engine failed. Who knows how the previous owner really treated it. Lots of what if's, agreed! Also Thanks for the personal message too about how my roo held up long enough to avoid a potential accident even while running bad at a moment. I am certainly thankful she did!

 

1 Lucky Texan shared the cost of tearing into the failed engine to discover what happened. I agree we would all like to know. He also shared how it's a bummer I have a 2500K cost to get her back on the road, but for now that beats starting over with 300/mo or more for a new car payment. I hope to keep her for another 2 years then maybe consider a new roo. Hopefully in a couple years I can still get a good price for her as she is in Excellent Condition, let's just hope this used engine does not fail in that time. It would be a different story if the car was noticibly beaten, she's almost 10 years old and everything else seems pretty solid not to mention body and interior is cherry. I keep all my vehicles in heated garage at my ranch. There is no trace of rust on her anywhere! Apparantly the previous owner must have at least shown equal respect to the car as well, as far as body care and cleanliness.

Personal Note: Don't fret Lucky, I had same desire as you to tear down engine to find out why she failed but it just seems my mechanic doesn't share the cost of doing so considering all the aspects. Besides, maybe I can dig into her myself? Maybe I should bring the old core home myself and pull off a few bolts. Hell might be a good educational experience Thanks Lucky!

 

At my ranch here I have a nice little heated shop and altho I'm not a mechanic myself, I do maintain my tractors and have done my share of minor mechanic work on cars and stuff. Just never really got into an engine before myself. Hell at least I know I can't hurt it! Guess it might give me a reason to update my tools with a new set of metric sockets as I have the air comp, airwrenches and the like. (also relates to Cookie's post as well).

 

Cookie shared his thoughts on imported Japanese engines and certainly you can see cookie that Japan Engine Inc is one of the bigger importers and has been in the Bay Area for years. BTW I am a native of the Bay Area born in Oakland and grew up in Hayward. I know the Bay Area well! I'm out that way often as my parents have retired from Hayward to Salinas. My dad was in the car business in the Bay Area for his whole life as a salesman and manager of several dealerships. He just retired a few years ago after spending his last 10-15 years with General Warranty servicing dealers all over the Bay Area. So I am certainly a "Dealer-Brat" Thanks for the good advice Cookie on bringing the core home as I kind of shared my thoughts about that above with Lucky.

Plus AGREE on the things you mentioned about swapping over much of my old engine to the new used engine and replacing the items you noted. After the call to Japan Engine today, they told me that includes my intake manifold! I hope my dealer is up on all this, but I better call dealer Monday and be sure these upgrades are addressed, as Japan Engine says alot of people try and cut costs by just dropping the used engine in the car without taking the time to replace and swap over the good stuff from the original engine. Not to mention the obvious things I mentioned in my last post. That leads to future problems. I'll look you up when I break down that old engine and maybe I can get some help on what to look for! Nice to bump into someone from my old hometown area!

 

subyluvr2212 shared alot of stuff! My first comment is from is first line on reason why the engine failed. Which actually refers to his last line of it may have just been the one in a million thing. At this point I know I shared references already stated above to a previous problem upon hard acceleration which repeatedly let to mis-fire at high passing speed and rpms. After hearing the same thing from mechanic and service manager of how THIS failure may look related, and especially how the mechanic said he heard a few things in the engine prior, it sounds to me like something was already wrong with this engine when I bought the car at 60K, maybe nothing serious, but maybe some previous wear that weakened something to wheareas obviously she failed after being pushed at high rpms in a passing situation where I needed to keep her going even during a mis-fire situation. I hope that after I get the old engine home, and with your help here on this message board, maybe we can come up with a few answers or something. At least the core is mine and I don't have to return it. I do have a pretty good mechanical knowledge and again have done alot of minor mechanical work so I'm sure with the help of others here, WE can break into this old motor and maybe discover just what the heck happened. I just don't think it's worth the hundreds of dollars to pay someone else to do it, especially considering how much I am out right now to get her back on the road. Thanks for the other comments Subyluvr, my mechanic shared some of the same thoughts and his bottom line was "let's move forward and get you back on the road. Sometimes something breaks inside and this looks like what has happened here." Thanks Subyluvr!

 

ShawnW shared some interesting stuff. I had no idea about the 96 EJ22 being so specific stateside as compared to an used Imported Japenese EJ22. I can only hope that after sending the wrong engine the first time and then asking for my Vin that Japan Engine Inc has sent me the right used engine this time. They over the phone today admitted seeings as they are covering the freight of having the other engine re-shipped back to CA from NE and paying for the freight for this next engine to come from CA to NE, reassured me that the engine arriving is a direct match for my car, as the guy even admitted due to the fact they have had to cover all freight costs so far that they have completely lost money on the deal, and I agree. He even admitted the guy on their end probably didn't ask enough detailed questions on exactly what I needed, or the engine dealer who got the engine for me didn't share the correct info with them. The freight one-way is like 125 bucks. The wholesale price for the motor delivered was like 920 bucks (I paid that local engine dealer, a middleman, who got it for me $1120). So Japan Engine is already out $250 bucks for having to re-ship another engine and get the other one back, so I'm sure they must have made sure it's right this time!

 

I appreciate your comments about the intake manifold. As after I read your post, I called Japan Engine today (Yes they were open on Saturday!) and learned YES I MUST keep my old intake, as the Japanese intake is different. It will still mate to the block, but different in operational specs considering Japanese fuels and emissions. I just hope to hell my dealer's mechanic knows my intake MUST be swapped. Japan Engine said alot of the time they will ship the used engine without the intake manifold to ensure it is swapped but sometimes keep the old intake on it to protect the motor during shipping. Boy this stuff is all so new to me and I hope this info provides enlightenment to others going through this. I have learned ALOT!!! Also sounds to me alot of mistakes can happen during an install of an Imported Japanese Used Engine installed here in the states. Thanks for sharing your thoughts Shawn!

 

blitz shared the diff in his earlier post about oil consumption and stuff. I agree with your clarifications Blitz. I always check my oil every 1000 at fillups. I even log the data in my lil service book I keep in the car showing all fuel purchased, mpg, all service and current levels. Guess I'm kindof nutty that way in keeping records. I hope there WILL be an investigation Blitz, even if I end up doing it myself at home. I am just as curious as you as I just dropped 6000 bucks on my roo 2 years ago (used at 60k), pretty much paid full book value for her. Her condition as you look at her is Excellent, thats why I paid full value for her. I think she booked at $6382 in kbb. Gotta love how a roo keeps her value! Plus I did hit a deer last month prior to this engine failure, over $4000 in insurance repairs, including complete right side all new, all repainted, fully repainted hood (which I dropped $780 myself for as deer did not damage hood but had chips and such figured I'd just get her looking all good considering the other improvements), blended left side and all new front bumper fully newly painted. You can see why I have decided to keep her. And why I plan to at least do what I can to tear down that engine myself. I will certainly share those findings when I get the chance to tear the old core down. (References to this above). Thanks again for sharing Blitz.

 

So for now that's it mates! Thank you so much again for all of your insights and advice. I hope this detailed thread will help others that may face an engine failure and replacement especially in an older roo, as far as options and ways to save a few bucks. It has so far been a very rewarding and educational experience for me apart from the hassle and expenses I have suffered. It's nice to have friends that love their cars and share here! I will continue to update this thread until the job is done and I am back on the road with my roo. I am very happy to be a Subaru owner. And so happy I found this site to share our experiences with our roo's and all the friendship that goes along with it. In my short time online here I can certainly see the passion many of you have to your roo's and I'm happy to share that passion with you. OK OK that may have been some heavy words, I'm just writing from my heart as I finish here tonight. This whole chain of events has been very stressful to me..having a place to share and let it go really is has chilled me out during these past weeks, so again Thanks. It's nice to know you are not alone with a problem when you visit here!

 

-Snaffle

[DerFahrer]

That started in 97 with the US exception being the EG33 (SVX ENGINE).

 

The EG33 is actually not an interference engine. Yes it is DOHC, and if the cams turn independent of each other on a DOHC Subaru engine, the valves will contact each other. But the EG33 is the only DOHC Subaru engine to have one cam gear-driven off the other. So, unless you shear teeth off the cam gear which is highly unlikely, needless to say, then you shouldn't ever have pistons touching valves or valves touching each other...

 

I'm as curious as you are, snaffle, to see what happened. If you can, tear your old engine apart and take pictures...

[cookie]

what will fit if they do this every day. One thing you learn as a mechanic is never send back a core before you are done. This is because you often find small differences like the manifold or brackets and exhaust. I have even had to swap heads, flywheels, drill a distributor hole larger, drill and tap an oil pick up bracket, swap oil pans, front covers, senders, water pumps, and I am sure I have forgotten something. The good thing about Subies is that a lot of the basic stuff fits like old American engines. You could put about any Chevy or Ford iin thier basic chassis if you swapped enough stuff, and Subies are much the same. These days I am an old fart that just likes stuff to bolt in.

I have thought about going over to San Leandro to see what those guys had around.

Some day my Forester engine will bite the bullet and I would like to know what my options are. If you make it out this way give us an email.

If I was not fairly busy decorating the xmas Caltrain I would take a run over there tomorrow, but instead I think I will string some 220 volt wires. We ran about 180 feet of cable under the cars the other day but there is much more to do.

[friendly_jacek]

I think it is safe to assume that the cause of the demise is unknown in this case. Nevertheless, I can't resist adding my 2 cents.

 

This is not the first time I'm hearing about a sudden engine failure when pushed hard while using a low viscosity 5W30 or 10W30 mobile 1 (these are almost 20 weight).

 

A buddy of mine blew his toyota engine at 120,000 miles while driving fast on hwy (90mph+). He used 5W30 mobile 1 since he got his car new and he was religious about oil changes. He did not overrewed as it was an auto tranny.

 

Another thing is that some (not all) people using mobil 1 experience increased oil consumption, especially under high speed driving.

 

IMHO, the low-30 mobile 1 oils are great for short trips, city driving, and improved MPG, but do not provide optimal protection under high stress, high temp.

 

Anyone with a rudementary knowledge of lubrication will tell you that heavier oil will give you a thicker oil film at the bearing. With high oil temps, high stress (pressure) at the bearings, and upened up clearances from engine wear, the oil film with light lube is not going to be thick enough at the bearings with a catastrofic effect.

 

If you read your subaru manual carefuly, it recommends streigh 30 and 40, or 10W40 or 20W50 oils for towing or high speed, high temp service.

 

0W30/5W30/10W30 mobile 1 oils are good for at least 95% of US drivers. The other 5% with lead foot or lead trailer should look elswere.

 

Please, go ahead and flame me :-)

[nipper]

i got the fire extingushier ready just in case

 

i tend to not like synthetic oils in high milage engines ... just a gut feeling.

 

 

 

nipper

[vic/se]

I think it is safe to assume that the cause of the demise is unknown in this case. Nevertheless, I can't resist adding my 2 cents.

 

This is not the first time I'm hearing about a sudden engine failure when pushed hard while using a low viscosity 5W30 or 10W30 mobile 1 (these are almost 20 weight).

 

A buddy of mine blew his toyota engine at 120,000 miles while driving fast on hwy (90mph+). He used 5W30 mobile 1 since he got his car new and he was religious about oil changes. He did not overrewed as it was an auto tranny.

 

Another thing is that some (not all) people using mobil 1 experience increased oil consumption, especially under high speed driving.

 

IMHO, the low-30 mobile 1 oils are great for short trips, city driving, and improved MPG, but do not provide optimal protection under high stress, high temp.

 

Anyone with a rudementary knowledge of lubrication will tell you that heavier oil will give you a thicker oil film at the bearing. With high oil temps, high stress (pressure) at the bearings, and upened up clearances from engine wear, the oil film with light lube is not going to be thick enough at the bearings with a catastrofic effect.

 

If you read your subaru manual carefuly, it recommends streigh 30 and 40, or 10W40 or 20W50 oils for towing or high speed, high temp service.

 

0W30/5W30/10W30 mobile 1 oils are good for at least 95% of US drivers. The other 5% with lead foot or lead trailer should look elswere.

 

Please, go ahead and flame me :-)

 

I agree!....I personnaly bealieve 10w30 is the best overall engine oil

[frag]

I beg to disagree about Mobil 1 5-30.

Having an oil pressure gauge, I can certify that the high temp viscosity of 5-30 is exactly the same as that of 10-30 while providing better lubrication upon startup in below freezing wheater.

I think the recomendation about not driving long distances at higway speed with 5-30 must apply to regular oil and even then to former formulas of dino oil. One of the more important qualities of synth oil is its ability to resist breaking down at high temp.

Not only are the high temp pressures of 5-30 the same as 10-30 but they stay that way between oil changes.

[friendly_jacek]

No, I did not say that 5W30 is bad.

What I did say was that both 5W30 and 10W30 mobil 1 oils are low-30 weight at working temp.

I prefer hight-30 oils (such as ACEA:A3 certified german castrol 0W30) or low-40 oils (such as Mobile 1 0W40 or rotella synth 5W40).

I hope this helps.

[robm]

Multiviscosity dino oils, say a 10W-30, look like 10W oil at low temp. and 30 at high temp. to a viscosimeter, not to a bearing. In a bearing, where there is shearing action, the VI improvers don't do anything, and the oil behaves more like its low temperature viscosity index. (A classic viscosimeter is just a cup with a hole in the bottom. Low viscosiity oils drain out quicker.)

 

That is why 5W-30 is not recommended for high speeds and high temperatures. Once it hits the bearing, it is really more like a 5W oil, and at high temperature, the viscosity of this oil is not enough to keep the bearing happy.

 

The oil pressure will look good, but that is because the VI improvers in the oil are work while it is being pumped through the oil system. It is just at the bearing, where it really counts, that they stop working.

 

Synthetic oils may be different. I have not seen any information on the action of wide range synthetic oils under shear.

 

I have often thought that straight 30 oil, with a sump heater to improve cold weather pumping, would be the best compromise between bearing longevity and fuel economy. A study done on cabs in New York showed using this oil reduced engine wear compared to multigrade. Higher viscosity oils (straight 40 and 50) reduced wear even more, but there was a noticeable fuel economy penalty. However, modern vehicles seem to be designed for 10W-30, this grade of oil is the least expensive available, and the older Subarus run very nicely on it for at least 300,000 km, so that is what I use. A block heater in the winter improves startability when the temperature gets below -10 deg. C

[blitz]

That is why 5W-30 is not recommended for high speeds and high temperatures. Once it hits the bearing, it is really more like a 5W oil, and at high temperature, the viscosity of this oil is not enough to keep the bearing happy.

 

The oil pressure will look good, but that is because the VI improvers in the oil are work while it is being pumped through the oil system. It is just at the bearing, where it really counts, that they stop working.

 

Synthetic oils may be different. I have not seen any information on the action of wide range synthetic oils under shear.

No difference except that synths require less VII to achieve a given viscosity index owing to a base stock having greater inherent VI.

 

I have often thought that straight 30 oil, with a sump heater to improve cold weather pumping, would be the best compromise between bearing longevity and fuel economy. A study done on cabs in New York showed using this oil reduced engine wear compared to multigrade. Higher viscosity oils (straight 40 and 50) reduced wear even more, but there was a noticeable fuel economy penalty. However, modern vehicles seem to be designed for 10W-30, this grade of oil is the least expensive available, and the older Subarus run very nicely on it for at least 300,000 km, so that is what I use. A block heater in the winter improves startability when the temperature gets below -10 deg. C

You're describing "non-newtonian" (non-linear) fluid characteristics - the viscosity being thicker at rest than it is when being forced or squished.

 

As long as the HTHS is maintained above an acceptable minimum figure (there's disparity on that number), it's not as big a problem as it seems - often being used to advantage, e.g. helps get oil to the top ring.

 

Conversely it could lead to high consumption in certain cases. A person's gotta choose the right oil for the application at hand.

[robm]

What is the HTHS?

 

From what you say, that less VII compounds are needed for synthetics, then a synthetic would behave better - assuming the VII's crap out the same way. Also assuming the base stock has sufficient viscosity to keep the bearing happy. A 0W- ?? may not be the best for a given engine.

 

The VII's work by increasing the apparent viscosity at high temperature, I believe, not by reducing it at low, so the "cold" number is the one that the bearing would experience.

 

It would be instructive to see teh actual viscosities of the oil, niot just the ratings. There is a range of viscosities that classif y an oil as "10W","30" or whatever, and there can be considerable variation. Any one out there have an idea where this info can be found?

[blitz]

What is the HTHS?

HTHS = High Temperature, High Sheer viscosity.

 

I don't recall the specific test protocol other than the oil's heated to 150*C and subjected to sheer forces (rotary viscometer?) It's a test designed to replicate conditions similar to what oil would be subject to in a main bearing under load. Some oil-heads like to think of this as the oil's real viscosity.

 

From what you say, that less VII compounds are needed for synthetics, then a synthetic would behave better - assuming the VII's crap out the same way. Also assuming the base stock has sufficient viscosity to keep the bearing happy. A 0W- ?? may not be the best for a given engine.

Simply put, synthetic base stocks have an inherent multi-grade property (e.g. VI of 130 instead of 100). One desireable quality of a base stock would be a high VI.

 

It's probably safe to assume that most decent 10W-30 syths contain no VII's.

 

VII's can still be (and are) added to synth base stocks to end up with those really wide spreads like 0W-40, 5W-50, & even recently 0W-50!

 

The VII's work by increasing the apparent viscosity at high temperature, I believe, not by reducing it at low, so the "cold" number is the one that the bearing would experience.

 

It would be instructive to see teh actual viscosities of the oil, niot just the ratings. There is a range of viscosities that classif y an oil as "10W","30" or whatever, and there can be considerable variation. Any one out there have an idea where this info can be found?

It's time you get the BITOG jones: http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi

 

I'm hardly an oil expert but what I DO know I learned just from lurking there occasionally.

[Setright]

5W-30 is not almost a 20 oil!

 

Instead of y'all debating here, why not just do as Setright does and read the Spec sheets from the manufacturers??

 

Look for the Cst at 40 and 100 to decide.

[friendly_jacek]

5W-30 is not almost a 20 oil!

 

Instead of y'all debating here, why not just do as Setright does and read the Spec sheets from the manufacturers??

 

Look for the Cst at 40 and 100 to decide.

 

OK, let me explain it to you:

mobil 1 5w20: viscosity is 8.8 cst (100C)

honda 5w20: viscosity was reported as high as 9.8 cst (100C) by oil analysis

mobil 1 5w30 and 10W30: viscosity used to be 9.9 cst (100C), only slightly higher from the 5W20 offering (compared with german castrol 0W30: 12.2 cst at 100C)

 

I just double checked the numbers on the mobil site and the current (SM) 10w30 is almost unchanged at 10.0 but 5W30 went up to 11.3 cst (100C). Bravo, finaly mobil "listened" to my complaints.

[snaffle]

Hello Friends,

 

I know it was a spell since my last post but nothing had happened due to thanksgiving holiday and all. Today I got my roo back with it's newly installed Japanese Imported Used Engine! It's amazing the power and acceleration I had NEVER felt in this subie! It feels like a brand new car as far as far as my first few miles in it!

 

Turns out the install was $1400 sted of 1000. With one of these imported engines, the warranty requires all new sensors, new rad hoses, new water pump and alot of stuff including earlier posts revealing strip it down to long block and swap everything. Considering the dealer had me an new Forester Demo for past 3 weeks, I was not about to complain about the 400 buck over estimate. (Find out more by looking up Japan Engine Inc in San leandro, CA as they have their warranty online at their site). I think choosing an Imported Japanese engine was a good choice considering the age of the car rather than a new or re-manf engine.

 

I must change the oil after 500 miles then every 3,000 to fulfill the warranty for 6 months, then I plan to go back to my 7500 as recommended by Subaru for my easy 100 mile roundtrip to work each day on highway. Probably will go back to Mobil-1 5w-30 after warranty as I'm not using the mobil-1 right now (using Valvoline 5w-30) for the 3k oil changes as I put 2200 a month on her. It's all easy miles, I don't speed, I baby her and run like 67-72 MPH on highway portion. Car is garaged in heated garage daily. As far as earlier posts regarding intervals..remember my car is SEEN by a certifified mechanic (Dealer) 4-5 times a year considering the quick highway miles put on her (nearly the same as someone who drives 3k in 2-3 months), so the car is well looked over often.

 

I have logged and done regular service by the book. If the book (Owners Manual) is so wrong as some have suggested as far as my usage falling into the the 7500 mile range, why havn't there been tons of other roo's failing due to service intervals??

 

Yes I saw how the thread here got intense about oil and how it may have led to this failure, at 107K. I really think we went way off on science of oil. Remember I bought my '96 legacy roo wagon used with a salvage title at 60k

already on her from Denver (A land of many mountains and stressful conditions for a roo if she had been handled hard the first 60k). I have seen how some people push their cars up I-70 to Vail just ripping away at high RPMS and who knows how the original owner serviced her. I found NO service recorded for her VIN through Subaru except for recall for a few little items early on. All the service I have done to her through my dealer has been recorded automatically through Subaru's website. Sure maybe the dude who owned her previous never recorded his service or ever had a certified dealer do the work. Or maybe the car sat for 3-4 years in a junkyard somewhere near Denver. See, to many "what-if's" here.

 

Bottom Line is dealer believes the engine was the factory engine but can't be certain. Timing cover removed revealed timing belt was in great condition for 50k of use (as that was documented) and engine was NOT off time or jumped during failure. Oil also showed no abnormal signs according to mechanic of looking bad, as he had serviced my car for past two years and said, "there's nothing wrong with your oil". Guess it's up to me now to break it down, as I hope to in the future when I get the core home and look inside (may need some help on what to look for as I am not a mechancic but am pretty darn knowlegeble of troubleshooting and stuff). Oh Crap I forgot to tell them I want to take the core home, crap! I'll have to call tomorrow and let them know I want the core. They told me they pretty much swapped EVERYTHING over.

 

OK and now the gut wrenching experience, 2 blocks from dealer, CHECK ENGINE comes on!!! I driver right back, bring her back in to dealer. After 30 min in waiting room, Service Mgr says it was just SMOG code..apparantly a EVT valve (or something like that) a plastic lil smog valve got cracked during install, mech thought minor, and tryed glueing it back together, apparantly that was the failure so they replaced it with a used one they had on hand.

I was not too impressed by that, considering I just dropped $1400 for a professional install, why would the mech glue a smog device together??

 

Secondarily, I drove the 50 miles home and 5 miles before I got home..CHECK ENGINE came on again. Both times were just steady, not flashing...now dealer wants me to bring car back and even offered to just give be back the Demo 06 Forester to use rather than have me wait around the dealership. The engine showed no signs of performing badly with these lights. I believe it's probably loose elec connections of maybe some other SMOG hose loose or something.

 

Also recall the ORIGINAL story of my oringinal engine failure. I pushed the engine this last time during a CHECK ENGINE situation which had a repeated history itself 3 times of mis-firing at high speed passing. Considering most of my accessories were swapped to this new "used" Long Block...maybe I still have the same problem, and if I have a life or death passing situation, will this engine fail again as the last because of a problem in the computer or electrical parts of operation that may make engine go off timing or run lean and then forcing high speed will lead to an engine failure???

 

That is the direction I hoped this thread would go, sted of the science of Oil Changes and intervals, as I gotta believe the oil was not an issue in this pre-mature failure, especially since I have a NEW "used" longblock and already we got trouble lights again!

 

Still alot of questions to be answered, we have nothing but time, but I certainly will NOT push engine RPMS with check engine light again, especially if it's flashing as in my first post of failure. I feel it is safe to drive back to city and dealer at easy speed limit while engine seems to be running solid and it really does sound like SMOG issue.

 

Hope I didn't open a can of worms here, but this is an interesting situation and I am trying to keep you all up to date with my latest experiences and reports. Biggest bad feeling I have is going back to dealer tomorrow and saying I want my core, hoping I can still identify it, as they did several engine jobs in the past few weeks. Let alone trying to transport it home. (I do have a 1-ton GMC Dually in my barn and a tractor with front-loader, so hopefully I'll be ok there). OR does it REALLY MATTER to try and keep my old core and look inside?? What will it really prove here? Except cure our curiosity. I know the engine had internal failure, I saw timing belt (OK after 50k), I saw engine was still in-time, we know 1 cyl had little or no compression but still the engine idled, very rough! And we know the engine oil was fine as at failure last change was 5k using Mobil-1 for past 3 years. Oh and by the way when I say 3 years (as I've had her for 2) the prev owner only had her 1 year and started the mobil-1 treatment as he got her at 52K from a guy who rebuilds subie's in Denver Metro. So he got this Roo in 2002 from a fella who rebuilds cars, a '96 with 52K in 2002, hmm 6 yrs old with 52k, pretty low miles...makes me wonder how long the roo was sitting in a yard collecting rust, especially since I learned the title was a salvage title. (When I say rust, body is fine, but did notice weathering apparant in engine compartment as compared to rest of car, almost like interior was hardly "used" yet inside engine compartment seemed to be more rusty spots and age look).

 

So you see, I really don't know what I truly have here to make a good judgment on. Some of this info has just been known to me know after the guy I bought her from spilled some more beans.

 

So maybe we should focus on what's at hand NOW, as the past of this poor roo is starting to show we really gotta look at what is happening now, rather then dwell on what her life was between 1996 and 2002. I do know the guy I bought her from totally was felt good about her and has records of good service for the short time he owned her.

 

I will update this post again when I get her back after tomorrow, hope I can find my old core and dig deeper to discover what failed, although I truly believe at this point it will be a waste of time. I really believe I'll have thousands of miles ahead in my rebuilt roo with continued gentle care especially the way I treat her. And I hope this post is a lesson, as I have learned from being kindof ripped off through this whole experience.

 

1. Always ask to see title before you pay book value for a used roo, even if from a good friend who may not understand what a "Salvage Title" means. Realize a salvage title means you have NO idea what you are buying, except that the car must have been totalled and is not worth, nor will ever be worth anywhere near blue-book value.

 

2. Know YOU can buy a used engine directly without calling someone else who makes a phone call and marks up that engine 30% and have it delievered to the shop doing the install job.

 

3. Know when you buy a Imported Japanese Engine you are basically getting JUST the long-block and it will take some good labor charges to swap over most of your engine parts. Still a good choice but always add like $500 in labor addition to a estimate of a shop willing to replace your engine (for I believe many shops expect to just drop it in as is, not expecting what must be done to ensure a imported japanese used engine in installed correctly considering it's origin and young 35-45 block life). As compared to a new or re-built which you pay more for up front for but is probably more "complete".

 

4. If the CHECK ENGINE is blinking do ALL you can to reduce RPM's if possible to prevent an internal engine failure, especially if you feel her mis-firing.

 

In closing for tonight, I have been brought up from a Father who has been in the imported car business his whole life and has tought me many things to watch for. At 45 now myself I think maybe sometimes we let our guards down, especially after having years of being lucky in used car purchases. Especially if you are buying from a friend who may not really know the car business much. 2 years ago after the oringinal sale when I finally got the title (about 30 days or so after I dropped the cash for her) and saw "Salvage Title" I knew I may be in for trouble ahead. Not all salvaged vehicles are going to be a bad deal, but in this case, let's face it, I got duped. I only hope now that with a new "used" engine I can maybe recover from this terrible loss. Considering how the rest of the car is in such good shape, maybe my roo will prove herself true now to the Subaru tradition of dependability and length of life. I hope my experience as I write to this board will be useful to others. There are still a few issues to address but I do not believe it is related to the reliability of the Subaru or it's oil change interval. Thanks for listening to the WHOLE story. I just wanted to make sure we are all still on the same page.

 

Let's remember along with insurance to repair my roo from a deer hit 2 months or so ago, over 12 thousand dollars has gone into this car including the 6K I paid to buy her in 2003 at 60K, the 4K (insurance paid) of body repair after my little deer encounter plus the 1K I spent out of my own pocket to do the other non-deer damage paint blending and chip-repairs to make the rest of her look good as compared to her direct deer damages, plus now the 2.5K I just dropped on replacing her engine. Considering her extremely beautiful body and interior along with other parts, I had to continue to own her and fix her.

 

I would hope that last paragraph would explain WHY I chose to keep her, even after an engine failure.

 

Realize with a "salvage title" I could never get a fair trade-in value at a dealer so she is only worth what she is to me, or maybe another subie owner seeing her improvements. So if nothing else, maybe this whole thread is just an education into something I should have already known, but let my guard down.

 

I hope it's useful to others. Thanks again for listening.

 

-Snaffle