Jack in Norfolk Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 I heard the other day from a fellow from Georgia that by law, the jumpseats in Brats had to be removed. I had never heard this before and was wondering if anyone else had heard this. Also, is anyone familiar enough with VA emissions law to know what would be legal as far as true dual exchaust? If there were seperate pipes, one from each manifold, wouldn't each pipe require its own catalytic converter? Would an 'H' pipe be nesescary? What exactly is an H pipe anyways? -Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Ursalia Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 I would *highly* doubt the rear seats are legal anywhere in the USA if you were on the public roadways . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack in Norfolk Posted September 30, 2003 Author Share Posted September 30, 2003 hmmmmmmmmmm...... I know in VA it is wreckless driving if there are more passengers than there are seatbelts. So in that respect there shouldnt be a problem. I'm not sure how the back seat in an open Jeep is any safer... Do you guys that own the brats drive around with the seats installed? I havent seen one on the raod in so long... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meeky Moose Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 well i'd feel alot safer in a jump seat bolted in the car than just ridin in the back of a truck.. and thats not illegal... if ya need seatbelts just hit a scrap yard, get some nice black ones outa anything, bolt em to the bed or jumpseat bracket, and there ya go... since those seats were put in factory and sold they can't be illegal.. just like cars that were made without seatbelts. they cannot make it illegal to not wear a seatbelt in a car that was never made with them.. get my drift... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nug Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Meeky, riding in the back of a truck in VA IS illegal. I think you can get a reckless driving ticket for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Riding in the jump seats of a Brat is LEGAL in all 50 states. The Brat is grandfathered because it was originally sold that way. Since they are original factory equipment, and since there are seatbelts for them, no one can say ****. They could probably ticket you if you put a small child back there, but other than that, there's nothing they can say. They *might* give you a ticket out of complete ignorance, but with the proper paperwork, you could get the charge dropped easily - you just have to show that they are original equipment for the car. The seats were installed so Subaru could import the vehicle as a car, not a truck, thus saving big bucks in import taxes (3% for a car, 28% for a truck). Therefore, since the feds mandated that the Brat is NOT a truck - VA law does not hold sway in this case. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet82 Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 This doesn't sound right? The vehicle would have to meet all DOT regulations to be imported to the US in the first place. If these seats were illegal, or deemed unsafe, they never would have had them. It was my understanding that the only reason the seats were added was to get around an import tariff thus classifing them differently. And that the seats had to be permant (non-removable) to meet this. It's OEM equipment and part of the vehicle as sold. I call B.S! on this one. What do I know? Glenn, 82 Hatch, has rear seats.....:temper: 01 Forester, wants 3rd row seats.....:madder: In Utah as long as all seatbelts are occupied you can have more people in the vehicle legally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meeky Moose Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 i just always see people ridin around in backs of trucks here, cops following them, then drives on by never says a word. see this on a daily basis here..... if it is illegal then the cops here aren't doin thier jobs lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 The seats ARE unsafe, and court rulings have upheld this: http://www.seriousinjuryexperts.com/defective_vehicle_design.html In that case, the victim was awarded 2.8 million dollars! This was the reason Subaru removed the seats after 85, and simply paid the tax (price went up a lot). And this is also the reason the Baja does not have anything like this. Subaru's legal team would have strangled some poor engineer if they had so much as mentioned "Jump Seats". BUT THEY ARE STILL LEGAL. Period. The Brat is not a truck (except 86 and 87 models apparently), and ANY discussion about the laws governing "trucks" DOES NOT APPLY. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam N.D.J. Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Funny, in the case summary, it doesn't say anything about the passenger in the jump seat wearing a seat belt. I'm going to say that he wasn't as he was "ejected" from the vehicle. Brats came with seat belts for the jump seats. I've been pulled over once for haveing passengers in the jump seats of my 80, but once the cop saw that both passengers were wearing seatbelts, he jes tipped he hat and said have a good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Yeah - I think it's legal in Oregon - even in a truck. As long as they are secured. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kecksnext Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 FYI - If your insurance co. insured your Brat that has seats standard then it's legal. Every county has some Ned Beatty squeel like a pig law just to have dibs on pullin' you over. If your seats are legit w\belts no worries. Just don't forget that any cop can pull you over for anything. Yes people died (very unfortunate) while in these seats and there were suits filed and people paid dearly. You can't produce 20,000 vehicles then say oh yeah by the way ...that's illegal. Any snake ,shark,DB lawyer would be all over that. That doesn't mean you and the the 2 tripppin' buddies wavin tie dye's from the bed screamin' free Jerry would be exempt from said laws. Cut and dry...cops suk. Don't be a weenie and you got nothin' to worry about. Strap Dave and Trip into the seats when you're outta the drive thru ad all is well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHATBRAT Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 If they came from the factory with the seats (and seatbelts) they are legal. If you add them most likely the cop won't know the difference but like someone stated earlier cops are Aholes and they will ticket you if they feel like it. Then you will have to take a day off of work to go to court and prove your case. (Most people just pay fines to avoid this and court fees that's why they do it) And FYI, 87 was titled as truck as far as I know but 86 was 1/2 and 1/2 (Well maybe not 50/50 but you get the point) I know this because my last BRAT was titled as a car and the one I have now is titled as a truck (Both 86's). Boz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikldom Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 In Virginia, they passed a law.. you can't have passengers in the bed of a truck, ONLY if they are under 16.. stupid freakin law... anyways.. like what was posted here... as long as it came factory, no worries If you wanted to add something like that, and it wasn't factory, you would have to get dot approval and what have you. like old cars.. if no shoulder belts from factory (pre 1967 I think), then you did not have to wear them. grandfathered in. anyways.. my seats behind my shed (if anybody steals them, I know where they are) I plan on reinstalling mine after I coat the bed. talk to you soon. Mike mikldom@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Are we STILL talking about trucks? The Brat is NOT a truck. (Well - at least mine [85] isn't). 86 and 87 will have to refer to their title. I don't see how this law can possibly apply to a passenger car? Anyway - thanks for noting that they are grandfathered - and no law (no matter how obnoxious) will stop you from using them. The only way to stop us, would be to have the federal government declare a recal on all Brat's sold with rear seats, and make Subaru remove them. I think that the likelyhood of this happening at this late of a date is rather slim. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack in Norfolk Posted October 2, 2003 Author Share Posted October 2, 2003 anybody care to tackle the dual exhaust question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 You need some sort of cross over pipe to equalize the exhaust pressure. You will almost certainly lose HP with a real dual exhaust. They sound neat, but are impractical on our engines. Don't know about the cat issue - don't much care for them myself.... GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack in Norfolk Posted October 2, 2003 Author Share Posted October 2, 2003 why would you lose horsepower? I have been told that back pressure is essentially a myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 You have been told wrong - back pressure (scavenging is the technical term) is extremely important. A slight restriction on the exhaust causes a venturi effect on the gasses. They speed up as they enter this restriction, and help the "pull" in the next fuel / air charge - that is why for a very short time between the exhaust and intake strokes both valves are open. This alows a complete flow from the intake to the muffler, and the scavenging takes place at that time. Whoever "told" you that, needs to read up on modern engine theory. That principle has only been in use for the last 60 years or so.... GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack in Norfolk Posted October 2, 2003 Author Share Posted October 2, 2003 interesting... I hadnt heard it explained that way before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archemitis Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 back pressure, and scavenging are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 archemitis is correct - they are technically different things. It is kind of a gray area really - depending on many factors, but they do effect one another. With an exhaust that is too large, you will have no back pressure, and also no scavenging, because the engine cannot fill the passageway for any scavenging to take effect - even if there were an artificial venturi in the passage, it would have no noticeable speed-up effect on the gasses because the amount of gasses would be too small. If the exhaust is too small, then you have back pressure. The idea is to minimize back pressure and to get an adequate amount of scavenging effect. Changing the size of the exhaust in fact changes both quantities. My bad - I was trying to explain it as simply as possible, and used the incorrect terminology, but I still think that is the answer he was looking for. Surely he can't *really* be saying that back pressure is a myth? That doesn't make sense.... potato up the tail pipe for example - not a myth as far as I can see. Scavenging is the word we both should have used, and I should have pointed that out to begin with. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archemitis Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 for example i have a harley. two cylinder, with two exhaust ports. i have a 2into1 pipe, with no baffle. i dont have much back pressure at all (1 7/8 pipes off the head into a 2.5inch megaphone) but i have the all mighty scavenging effect! good for 10 hp over a standard dual exhaust with no crossover. thats on a harley, but its pretty close analagy. less back pressure=crappy lowend power/great top end more back pressure= good low end/crappy top end breathing and... the scavenging doesnt start till mid rpm range anyway, so less backpressure works good with a good scavenging exhaust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack in Norfolk Posted October 2, 2003 Author Share Posted October 2, 2003 his statement was that the benefits of backpressure are a myth, not that backpressure itself is a myth. I had a tercel, it was my first car and the muffler fell off on the highway and it seemed like I got a little boost of power, like when you turn off the AC. That is what started the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 here in the great state of Indiana, you can plate your 4wd subaru wagon with a 10,000 pounds truck plate, and by thus not having to wear seatbelts in the front seat, because its not required in a truck., laws dont make sense, they work in both good and bad ways. no one ever applied common sense to law, just procedure. so how does a plate mean the difference between a ticket in the same car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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