HELP! problems running after reseal **UPDATE: problem pinpointed**

[soobscript]

NOW: Sounds like a diesel and cam sprockets are loosening themselves. Both spit out their roll pins and have some bolts almost completely out. Driver's side belt has moved back so it's only halfway on....

_____________________________________________

 

THE STORY: Freshly resealed motor. Just fired it up. Got oil pressure first. After some cranking she fired right up. VERY rough idle @ 500 rpm, everything shaking. Smoothed out with some throttle. Let it warm a little, did a quick visual check then increased to 2k rpms for the Delta cams.

 

Still too much vibration and internal noise for my liking. Turned it on and off a few times. No issues restarting. No leaks. Oil pressure good. Temp good. Idles around 500 rpm. Only died once, and the turbo light turned on for an instant when it happened.

 

Was hearing something weird from the #2-4 area. Then while idling it spontaneously started making a BAD ticking/clacking noise on the #1-3 side. Not normal hvla noise. Sounded like a diesel motor running. Got worse with rpms. I killed the ignition. Now I am at the opening paragraph.

 

 

Why? Could off timing or a bad spark plug wire do the shaking thing? Is that what made the cams get loose and start the violent noise? The sprockets were torqued and had blue threadlocker applied. I know you'll want more info, but that's already a lot to read. HELP!

 

--Ed

[[HTi]Johnson]

That happened to me when it was running on two cylinders. (My timing belts were off, both marks were up when I put them on.)

[soobscript]

Distributor off a tooth? Bad set of reground cams? Cam bores too worn? Main bearings?

 

The noise really scared me. I really don't want to restart it without some good info.

 

Belts should be on correctly. One up, one down. Even gave them some tension before tightening.

 

My first time messing with a car with a distributor. Cap, rotor, and wires are relatively new.

 

I don't think it matters but my EVAP canister/hoses are not connected at all yet, my EGR solenoid is also not present.

 

Stuff done while engine was out:

nothing to the block, except cleaning and lubing cylinder walls

all new OEM seals

new OEM oil pump

new OEM water pump

new timing belts, tensioners, idlers

Mizpah reman HVLAs

Delta cams (260)

injectors cleaned by RC Engineering

heads from JY with no cracks, pressure checked, resurfaced

valve job

new NGK plugs

new O2 sensor

new fuel filter

new PCV valve

all electrical contacts checked and cleaned

new 2-row radiator

newer smoother electric fan, no mechanical fan

all new hoses

new clutch, pressure plate, pilot and throwout bearings.

flywheel resurfaced

everything cleaned

lots painted

more stuff

[idosubaru]

i'd probably install the evap canister hoses for now, i think one is a vacuum line and should at least be plugged if it's open.

 

pull the valve covers and have a look at the cam followers (rocker arms). make sure all are seated. heard of them not being perfectly seated before, think yo'ud experience something like you have.

 

a compression test would be nice.

 

lining up the distributor can be tricky, make sure it's dead on.

[Subarian]

I'd double-check the timing belts.

[soobscript]

Thanks for the tips.

 

The disty rotor should be pointing at #1 when the flywheel says 20, right?

[soobscript]

I'd double-check the timing belts.

I know the timing belts are positioned correctly. Did a lot of checking and testing before dropping the engine in. What about checking if they are a tooth off?

[idosubaru]

I know the timing belts are positioned correctly. Did a lot of checking and testing before dropping the engine in. What about checking if they are a tooth off?

 

timing belts have to be dead on. when each cam is lined up with the notch the flywheel marks should be dead on. and the cam marks are 180 degrees off from each other.

 

the distributor can be very annoying to set straight. rotor pointing to 20 degrees sounds about right though. but the distibutor turns twice for every turn of the crank so you may have it lined up 180 degrees off. install it 180 degrees out and see if that fixes it.

 

if you don't want to randomly reinstall it 180 degrees off, the way to get it exact or to check would be to remove the valve covers and spark plug #1. look for the piston through the plug hole, get it all the way to TDC (flashlight helps). once it's there, have a look at your valves (really have to deduce their position from the cam follower position, but same thing) and make sure they are both closed. if it's the exhaust stroke they'll both be open. you can also put your finger over the spark plug hole as you turn the motor over by hand and when you feel it pushing air out, that's on the compression stroke. i've never had much luck doing that...but maybe it was too cold and my hands were numb or something. once you verify the piston is TDC on the compression stroke (and not the exhaust stroke) then your rotor should be at #1 with the flywheel at 20 degrees.

[Subarian]

You can also do it without removing the valve covers. Pull the #1 plug and put your finger in the spark plug hole. Feel for compression - the air will push your finger out on the compression stroke, but not the exhaust stroke. As you're coming up to TDC on the compression stroke, stop at 8 degrees BTDC. And what I meant in the earlier post about checking the timing belts is that they're often off by a tooth, which is 10 degrees in valve timing. That's a significant error.

[MilesFox]

the rotor lines up to #1 at 0 deg

 

install the belts onto the cam sprockets then torque down the bolts as the belt will hold them still

 

#1 cylinder is on the passenger front, firing order is 1-3-2-4 counter clockwise

 

#1 on the cap is immediately to the right of the screw on the back side, pointing at the hill holder

[soobscript]

Car is a turbo, sticker under hood and all manuals say timing is 20 deg. So should rotor point to #1 at 20 or 0?

Rotor is also arc shaped - so should it point to #1 on the leading edge or at the center.

 

I did everything with the engine on a table in front of me for easy access. I'm quite sure that it is set to the compression stroke. Belts are as close as I could get them to exact, left (driver's) side is no more than half a tooth off, no picture in my head of the right belt. Rotor is currently set so the center is at #1 button at the 20 mark on flywheel. This being my first time for everything, I tried a lot of different combinations of teeth on the disty and stuff like that. Also turned crank with belts and everything lined up after several rotations.

 

I'm heading out now to check for that nasty noise on the 1-3 side, proper spark, and re-do the cam sprockets and belts. Hopefully it's something obvious and easy .

 

A timing light and compression gauge would be nice right now...

[Subarian]

The center line of the rotor should point to the center of the electrode.

[ShawnW]

Next time dont attempt to start your engine without building oil pressure first. Easily done by disconnecting the coil wire prior to cranking it over or on the newer models disconnecting the ignitor.

[soobscript]

The disty was off by a tooth (I think). The rotor was hitting #1 with its trailing edge. I adjusted it so the center of the rotor hits #1. Firing order is correct.

 

Both sprockets have been pushed toward the front of the car. Cams are in correct position, but the bolts are backing out. Followers look fine.

 

There is a strong tap/clack each time a valve pops back up. Is that normal? I have been turning the engine by hand with the crank bolt. (Engine is cold, sitting for 24 hours, no oil pressure.) Is that just unpumped hvla's or is it mis-shapen camshaft lobes?

 

Could the bad timing make the vibration and cause the cam spockets to come loose? The shaking was in a side-to-side motion. Engine was being tossed on idle.

 

Next time dont attempt to start your engine without building oil pressure first. Easily done by disconnecting the coil wire prior to cranking it over or on the newer models disconnecting the ignitor.

I did get oil pressure first. No plugs in, coil connected, or fuel pump power. I don't know if I let it warm up enough before revving for the cams though.

 

Doing the timing belts again now. Access isn't quite as easy...

[ShawnW]

You might have a misground cam. I would contact delta to see what they think.

[soobscript]

I can't find any evidence of threadlocker on the cam pulley bolts. Maybe I didn't torque them the first time. :-\ Then the shaking from bad timing loosened the bolts.

 

I found the source of the nasty noise that developed on the 1-3 side. The loose pulley was getting slammed forward and backward in rotation. Bolts were hitting the walls of their holes. Holes started to get oval.

 

Bolted the cam pulleys on, did the belts again, and moved the disty. Took care of some other stuff then tried to start the engine. Nada. Just cranking.

 

Made sure I connected power to the fuel pump. Checked for disconnected wires. R&R all the disty wires, bent tabs to better connection. Temp at 20 degrees and lots of cranking on a battery that hasn't been used for 3 months, so I hooked up the charger/starter. No start at 40A charge setting. Same at the 200A start setting. Look at stuff then quit for the night.

 

Did not check for spark everywhere. It's also possible that spark plug wire(s) got broken during the whole process. Need to check. Not sure if I got enough tension on the t-belts (but certainly enough to start).

 

The ECU O2/code light flashes a lot on u-check. For some reason the light stays lit for the same amount of time on each flash (all SHORT), but the time between flashes varies. It's not doing the LONG and SHORT flashes like it used to and should. What's up with that? Longer pauses could be the LONG flashes, but it's hard to decipher them. Will the codes repeat with the key on, or run through once then stop?

[soobscript]

You might have a misground cam. I would contact delta to see what they think.

I noticed on the Delta cams that the lobes (some or all?) are not completely "round." At the edge of the "peak" (top of the tall area) there is flat spot and corner, relative to a smooth curve. Is that bad?

 

I haven't looked at stock ones that close, but will tomorrow. It might be normal, and it might be the result of a re-grind. I have no experience here. I also didn't measure them with a micrometer.

 

Is XSNRG the only person that has gotten a bad set? Search time, gotta check his symptoms... *edit* I think it was subaru_styles... anybody have a link?

[TomRhere]

quote;

There is a strong tap/clack each time a valve pops back up. Is that normal? I have been turning the engine by hand with the crank bolt. (Engine is cold, sitting for 24 hours, no oil pressure.) Is that just unpumped hvla's or is it mis-shapen camshaft lobes?

un-quote;

 

That statement leads me to think that the valve(s) are sticking in the guides some. Turning the engine by hand, should not produce any lifter clack/tick/noise. The cam follower should do just that, follow the cam lobe. As the lobe is turned to the low side, (valve closing), the follower should be in contact with both the lobe of the cam, and the valve stem, even if the HLA's aren't fully pumped up. If you are getting any noise from the valve area when turning the engine by hand, something is wrong. A sticky vavle will cause the engine to miss on that cylinder, which will cause engine to shake.

 

What work was done to the heads, and/or valves and guides?

[soobscript]

What work was done to the heads, and/or valves and guides?

Heads were pulled from junkyard and taken to machine shop. The shop pressure tested, cleaned, resurfaced, did valve job, and installed valves. The old valves and springs were used with new OEM stem seals and keepers. Heads came back to me in plastic, then I cleaned again and finished assembly.

They said the valve guides looked good. They said the opposite on my original cracked heads. They had 2 full sets of valves to choose from. I don't know if they checked spring height or tension, and I don't have any specs of any of the measurements they did.

[soobscript]

I think HTKYSA pinpointed the wierd noise I heard by #4 when I first started the engine. "Knocking sounds: ...OHC models: A thwapping-type knocking sound from the distributor means the cam belts are loose and need to be adjusted. The thwapping come from the camshaft banging on the inside of the cam box. ..." Don't know if it's still there, have to get engine started.

 

I'm headed out to test spark alone. Hope my water didn't freeze last night...

[soobscript]

After messing around a bunch I found out why it wouldn't start... The disty wire harness wasn't connected, but looked like it was. Musta pulled it loose one of the times I had the disty out.

 

It's running. Not well, but much better than berfore. Started out at 1100 rpm (cold idle) and ~65 psi, then dropped to 500-600. To smooth idle I moved the disty around while running, didn't really help. Then I started pulling wires. #1 sputtered and almost died before I pluggged it back in. #3 did nothing, but there was spark. #2 it died instantly. #4 did nothing, but there was spark.

 

When I had the plugs out #3 looked brand new. 4 looked almost as good. 1 & 2 already looked well used. They were all spankin new when the engine started running.

 

There's still that noise on the 2-4 side, maybe belts aren't tight enough. 1-3 side has some tapping/clicking noises and what sounds like exhaust puffs. Time to investigate!

[TomRhere]

Been down that road myself with the , it's together but not connected, connector. Hates when that happens......

 

Now, with #3 & #4 not firing, I would think that those 2 plug wires are reversed on the disty cap. Try swapping them around.

 

With the noise on the 1-3 side from the valve/HLA. I was thinking that maybe there is/was an oversized valve stem issue as the cause of noise, as that would want to bind the valve stem in the guide. Hopefully, that's is not the case. Seems the shop would've noticed something there when they assembled the head. Just may be, it'll go away after engine is ran for a while, (once things get oiled properly).

[soobscript]

Lots of new info. No improvements. I could use some more feedback...

 

I'm still at the same rough idle. Messed with some stuff. Pulling the 1 or 2 wires off disty kills the engine. 3 & 4 have no effect - but they are sparking at the disty. Wire resistance checks out. All plugs are brand new from same box. I haven't got conclusive proof of spark or no spark from plugs. 3 is getting fuel for sure.

 

I can't really hear the valve tick noise anymore when hand cranking. When I heard it before one valve cover was off, but I could hear both sides.

 

I am getting code 23 and code 44. MAF and Wastegate Duty Solenoid. I did the checks in Haynes for the MAF. Resistance good. With key ON base voltage good, flow voltage increase good, power good. Contacts clean. Only issue is that the ambiguity of the Haynes instructions says to check the power wire and it should have over 10V. I have no power to MAF without key ON. Unplugging MAF while running make no change. Engine starts and runs the same without MAF connected. ALL grounds are excellent (I re-did them all and have under 1 ohm from any point-to-point in the engine bay).

 

Duty solenoid contacts are good. I can't find any diagnostics in my 4 books or the online PDF. One of the connectors has nothing when key OFF; when ON it has 12V and 0.02V (200mV) - I'm guessing that is the low end of its boost scale. The 5-wire connector has 12V on the middle terminal when OFF and nothing on the rest; when ON has same 12V power and that 0.02V on the other four wires. I might have the wastegate and turbine vac lines switched.

 

I am also getting water dripping from the DP-cat connection. A new OEM gasket was used. The springs on the bolts bottomed out so it's as tight as can be. It is water with soot from the inside of the exhaust pipes. It has only been running for 1 minute with antifreeze in the system, was just filled with distilled water before. No gas smell detected. So I don't know if it's water from combustion/misfire, leaky turbo, or bad gasket.

 

Right now egr and purge control solenoids are not present, because they are open resistance (no good). Some vac lines are plugged up. I don't know if they should/shouldn't be, but makes no difference to the idle situation. Haven't hooked up the evap canister yet, but have tried every combination of plugged connections with no results. Anyone know of a how-to for bypassing the emissions stuff? (I don't want to, but my equipment isn't any good.)

Distributor installation: what's the correct procedure for a turbo? I have been slipping it in where #1 @ 20 deg is near the center of adjustment area. It that good? Should I make the gears mesh at 0 deg, then rotate adjust to 20 deg? #1 is on compression stroke, valves closed, passenger cam dot at about 11:00, belts are correct.

 

Should be getting compression check this afternoon.

 

...that's a lotta typin. Is this all because I stuck the disty in wrong?

[MilesFox]

to install the disty, line up the flywheel to 0 deg. drip in the distributor. dont get confused withthis mark and 20 deg

 

the 20 deg mark is for setting the initial timing with a light while the engine is running and the green connectors plugged in

 

now, when the o deg ark is lined up, the rotor will point to #1 on the cap, whicj is to the rear and right of the cap screw, facing towards the hill holder

 

the mark on the passenger cam will poin to the hard corner on the cam cover

 

what you will want to do is line up the timing belt marks so the driver side cam is up, then turn the flywheel till 0 deg comes up and then drop in the disty

[soobscript]

It's running on #1 and #2 only. Pulling plug wires or injector harnesses make no difference to performance. There is spark to both at the disty, and the wire resistance checks out, but I still haven't seen spark at the plug.

 

What's the deal with the water in exhaust? (and why is it leaking before the cat?)

 

I reinstalled the disty with Fox's directions in the last post and his article. Set rotor to 0 deg. Car started, but ran worse and wanted to die. I turned the disty nearly the full adjustment space while it was running. Fully advanced now and running just like before. I'm pretty sure there is a lot of knocking happening from the advanced timing.

 

I have new codes: 14 and 15 - fuel injectors. Did all the tests for them. Strange that my #3 wires were opposite the others. I swithced the wires but no change in operation. All resistances and voltages are dead on. I think I heard them all ticking, but can't be certain with all the other noises and engine movement.

 

No change if MAF wires are connected or not. No change if no air filter used. No running if the wastegate duty solenoid is unplugged. All vac hoses to it appear to be correct according to a great post by Skip. Didn't get a compression test.

 

Injectors 3 & 4 could be plugged. By tracing fuel lines I see that they would be the first to get fuel. But... I hosed out all hard and soft tubing with brake cleaner before installation. I got some good chunks with a q-tip out of the curvy firewall hose, but anything in there would have to got thru the filter (new purolator). Injectors were also professionally cleaned and flowed before installation.

 

Other possibilities are bad valve job/installation, bad cam job, unhooked emissions stuff, and...

 

WTF is up with the WATER pudde?