beezer Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 I have a '92 legacy, 2.2L, 5 spd with somwhere around 250,000 km. I have been scratching my head for awhile with this problem. When I start the car the rpm's rise very slowly and after 5-10 sec the rpm's will reach 1100-1200 rpm's. The engine runs very rough, it only seems to be running on 2 cylinders. I should say it is only running well on #3 and #4 cylinders. I can pull the wires for the #1 and #2 cylinders without changing the performance too much. If I drive the car like this, up past 2000 rpm it seems to run on all 4 cylinders if I stay on the gas. When I get off the gas it seems to go back to running on 2 cylinders. It will occassionally lose power when holding a steady speed, give it a little gas and I'm back to normal again. If I let the car idle for 5 minutes or so, then turn the car off and turn it back on it will usually run normally, sometimes I have to drive it for a couple km's. Hope this makes sense, will try and clarify if it doesn't. The CEL does come on and it is always the air control valve and the fuel purge solenoid. OK, what I do know: -The car has new plugs, wires, filters (air and fuel), pcv valve. -New coolant temp. sensor and knock sensor -Battery has 12V with the car off and 14 and a bit volts with the car running. -There is spark going to all the cylinders. -The coil pack tested out fine -The air control valve tested out OK, it has been cleaned too -The injectors are working and the resistance values are the same. -The fuel purge solenoid tested fine -New timing belt, the idlers etc seemed fine -maybe other stuff I don't remember right now. The car doesn't always do it, it is more frequent now that the temp. has dropped. The problem can vary between 2 hrs. to 3 weeks in happening again. My guess is that I have a small leak at the intake manifold. Any suggestions or comments? Thanks, Beezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 have you checked the engine temp sensor for the ECU ? nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beezer Posted November 26, 2005 Author Share Posted November 26, 2005 No I haven't tested it, but I did replace it not too long ago. Will check that later. Oh, duh, forgot to mention amongst all that blathering, There is some small traces of black soot around the bottom of the 1 and 2 intake runners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 Since you stated that you can turn the car off and restart it and then it seems to run fine I would guess this is more an electrical problem than mechanical. Have you tried swapping coils to see if that makes a difference? To see if there is a manifold leak try sprayring some WD-40 around the suspected areas while the engine is idling and see if it changes speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunered Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 the black soot to me would mean intake valves are hanging open or not seating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beezer Posted November 28, 2005 Author Share Posted November 28, 2005 Sorry for the delay in responding, the computer needed a little love too. I did a vacuum test and everything seems fine. At idle it would sit around 17-18, can't remember for sure right now. It would bobble around about a 1/2 inch/hg. If I snapped the throttle open it would shoot to 0 then to about 22 then back down to normal. I'm not saying it couldn't be the air control valve, its just a little pricey to replace and not fix the problem. The problem I have is the randomness (is that a word?) of the problem. If it happened erverytime I could suck it up and start replacing parts. Cougar, I do agree it sounds more like an electrical problem. It is hard to troubleshoot, because it usually acts up in the morning, it's dark and I'm late for work. When I do have the time to fiddle around the car acts perfectly fine. Typical huh. I might hafe to bite the bullet soon and get a new IAC or a gently used one. It just sucks, I bought the car for a little over double the price of a new IAC. Thanks, Beezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted November 29, 2005 Share Posted November 29, 2005 The "canister purge valve" would be the place to start. Small, not too expensive and known to cause idle problems. Especially on European models like ours. Stopping and starting the engine may be freeing the purge valve up. So that might explain that part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beezer Posted November 29, 2005 Author Share Posted November 29, 2005 Well I decided to do a little experimenting. If my problem is in the IAC then I assume that it is an electrical problem. This could be an incorrect assumption however. I know you can test for the voltage when the car is in the "on" position, the middle connection "B" to ground, mine measured 12V. I wondered what happened when the car was running. My thoughts were that in some way it must be related to the TPS..... somehow. When the throttle is completely closed, the resistance of the TPS should be zero. I figured the voltage should rise at the IAC, and vice versa. I don't know what you call it......... back pinning maybe? I hooked up three connectors to the valve itself and ran 3 short pieces of wire to the corresponding connections on the harness. This is what I found B-ground=12V at idle and with the throttle open. A-B= 3V at idle with a rise of 1/2V-1V with open throttle A-C= 5V at idle with a drop of 1/2V-1V with open throttle B-C= 8V at idle no change either way These numbers (mostly the rise and fall #)may not be completely accurate, it was hard to try and keep the connection and look at the meter and rev the engine at the same time. I will do it again just to verify everything. I don't know if these actual numbers mean anything, but, I might use it as a base line and compare the numbers when it is acting up. Anybody got any ideas on these numbers? Beezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinC Posted November 29, 2005 Share Posted November 29, 2005 MAF SENSOR, had similar problem. ran great 99% of the time and about once or twice a week it would act up. usually just die or if i could keep it running it would act very chuggy(like on 2 cylinders). Soon as i would turn the key off and then back on it was fine for days. (90 legacy 227,000 miles) HAD a post recently and legacy 777 steered me in the right direction. also no codes would be thrown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beezer Posted November 29, 2005 Author Share Posted November 29, 2005 I've had that thought myself. The car never dies, it just runs like crap. I might try and clean it, a little nervous about that. I might check out the voltage readings on the MAF when it is running. Thanks for everybodies thoughts so far! They aren't going on deaf ears....it's just I only have so much time to tinker unfortunately. Supper is probably burning now! Beezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted November 29, 2005 Share Posted November 29, 2005 Your voltage readings between A and C are what you want to see. That is the wiper voltage. The throttle signal is supposed to be between .5 to 5 volts. The lower the voltage, the more the throttle is open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinC Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 My type of MAF was JECS(black) it is supposed to have a more problems than the hitichi. Also have you tried to monitor fuel pressure. I ran about ten feet of hose from a tee I put right after the fuel filter. Got the hood to close with out pinching it and ran it inside the drivers side window. Got a lot of strange looks but it worked well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beezer Posted November 30, 2005 Author Share Posted November 30, 2005 Cougar: I just want to verify, are you talking about the throttle position sensor or the air control valve? I'm reading the voltages across the air control valve. Just want to make sure we are on the same page. Thanks Beezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 I was refering to the TPS. Thanks for the clarification. Cougar: I just want to verify, are you talking about the throttle position sensor or the air control valve? I'm reading the voltages across the air control valve. Just want to make sure we are on the same page. Thanks Beezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy777 Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 If the problem is the MAF, cleaning it won't help. You may want to see about finding a used one to try, or if someone has one that you can borrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beezer Posted December 3, 2005 Author Share Posted December 3, 2005 Yeah, I have been doing some reading and I agree with cleaning the MAF won't help. I can't say for sure with subes, but I guess MAF's clean themselves by heating the hot wire up to like 1000 deg when the car is turned off. So a little electrical cleaner probably won't help much. I noticed tonight that the TPS was not set correctly. What are the symptoms a car might show with the TPS not set up properly? I don't think it is the whole problem but............who knows. There is also paint on the idle screw, I'm not sure if it has been tampered with or not. The paint isn't cracked, but god only knows. Any comments on this? Beezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted December 3, 2005 Share Posted December 3, 2005 With the TPS not set right, the ECU will not know when to idle the engine. As for symptoms, they probably vary depending on in what direction the sensor was off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinC Posted December 3, 2005 Share Posted December 3, 2005 on my MAF the solder joints where cracked where the sensor and heater soldered into the board. I was able to pop the little 2/2 cover off and resolder the connections. Then I used black RTV to reseal the cover back on. May be total different on a 92 model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beezer Posted December 4, 2005 Author Share Posted December 4, 2005 Well, I now know what the problem is! A bad connection and the "C" terminal on the air control valve. I'm not sure why the fuel purge solenoid code would come up too with it though. This morning I hooked up all my little wires to the MAF and the IAC in the hope that the car would act up when I started it this morning........ it didn't. I measured the voltages on the IAC and the voltage produced by the MAF. Every thing seemed fine. The voltages across the IAC stayed pretty steady and so did the MAF. I thought maybe I could reproduce the symptoms by disconnecting a wire from either the IAC or the MAF. The car just dies when the MAF is disturbed. When I pulled the wire on the "C" terminal on the IAC.............you get a car running on 2 cylinders. I'm sure the fuel purge solenoid is fine, I tested it again yesterday and it is fine. I cleaned the solenoid also. I hooked up some wire to the solenoid (I removed it from the car) and hooked a ring connector to the positive on the battery. I cut 2 small lengths of clear tubing and put them on the valve openings. I filled the one tube with some brake cleaner and then touched the other wire to negative post on the battery. This sucked the cleaner through the solenoid and out the other tube. Does it help............. don't know. I sprayed the connections on the IAC, MAF and the purge solenoid with some electrical cleaner, hope this helps. At least I know what the problem is now. Thanks for the help everbody! Beezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjdavey Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 I have a 2003 Legacy with 29,000 miles and it seems to be doing the exact same thing. I guess it is still under warranty so I'll bring it in and see what they say. Bit it does sound like a MAF. I had one go on my VW Golf TDI not too long ago and it ran like crap - no power etc. - When I replaced the MAF it ran like new. I'll let you know. Did you ever get it fixed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beezer Posted February 21, 2006 Author Share Posted February 21, 2006 No I haven't replaced the IAC yet, due to a little shortage on funds right now. The car does run well 90% of the time though. I can live with it for now, it doesn't drive me nuts as much now that I now what the problem is. Your car probably has a MAP sensor on it. I'm sure it would be throwing a code if it was bad or was not functioning within it's parameters. If it is under warranty, then yeah, take her in and let them figure it out and get back to us. Beezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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