Help! Losing coolant! - bad to worse

[lekmedm]

Well, my temp guage often, but not always, fluctuates, sometimes spiking completely to "H" and staying there. I've been adding up to a quart of coolant sometimes. The reservior is often full. What's interesting in this is that the whole battery and area around it are splattered with coolant. I can't find any other signs of leaks. I replaced the radiator cap (13lbs. from NAPA), but that didn't solve anything. Is this a pressure problem? I pray the HG aren't going, and yes, it's the 2.5L. Why is the area around the battery all wet??? The floor in the garage is clean, so no drips. Is all the coolant being blown out the top somewhere? I would think the engine would run very well if the coolant was going out that way, and it runs just fine.

 

Help! Please!

[svxpert]

<<Well, my temp guage often, but not always, fluctuates, sometimes spiking completely to "H" and staying there.>>

 

 

you let the temp get that hi? thats never good on an engine.

[nipper]

ok NEVER let your engine get that hot, if you didnt have a blown head gasket you may very well now. You can also warp the heads, or wipe out the engine.

Take of the raditor cap start the car let it warm up look for bubbles. i fear you may see lots of bubbles, indicating a blown headgasket.

 

nipper

[OB99W]

If you detect bubbles in the radiator after a short warmup, it could indeed be HG problems. If it's bad enough, you can actually smell exhaust fumes coming from the radiator. However, a sticking thermostat could also cause overheating and coolant spewing, and is a lot less expensive to repair than HGs.

 

--OB99W

[Setright]

In my experience two things will cause the expansin tank to overflow:

 

Bad rad cap and blown headgaskets. :-(

[lekmedm]

If you detect bubbles in the radiator after a short warmup, it could indeed be HG problems. If it's bad enough, you can actually smell exhaust fumes coming from the radiator. However, a sticking thermostat could also cause overheating and coolant spewing, and is a lot less expensive to repair than HGs.

 

--OB99W

 

I tried this test, and there were no bubbles coming from the open radiator cap. Actually, what would happen was the coolant would back up and overflow, so I see that's why my overflow tank is full.

 

Does this really mean the HG are still OK??? Could it really be as simple as changing the thermostat??? Where is the t-stat located? I guess it's worth trying before going to the mechanic and spending big bucks.

 

One thing that was previously interesting is that when the temp would rise up to "H", it would then fall back to the normal range, usually in a short time. Is the t-stat sticking?

 

Edit: I think I should add that there have been times when the temp guage has been in the normal range, but the heater would not blow hot. More evidence that it's a t-stat problem, or am I kidding myself?

[OB99W]

Does this really mean the HG are still OK??? Could it really be as simple as changing the thermostat??? Where is the t-stat located? I guess it's worth trying before going to the mechanic and spending big bucks.

 

It isn't always easy to diagnose bad HGs. Especially when they first start failing, the problem can be subtle. However, if you aren't seeing bubbles in the radiator (note that they can be small), and the coolant isn't contaminated, there's at least a chance that the t-stat is your problem. Also, if you haven't made certain that there isn't air trapped in the cooling system, that's another thing to look into.

 

You can find the t-stat by following the lower radiator hose. The housing is held in place with two bolts. Obviously, because of the location, removing it will cause loss of most of the coolant from the radiator and block, possibly onto you. Therefore, you may want to drain the system before pulling the t-stat. If you decide to get a replacement, be sure it's an original (OEM); the aftermarket ones often don't work the same way. Also, be sure to get a new gasket; make sure the surfaces are clean. Be careful to note the way the original stat is mounted; putting the replacement in upside down won't help . There's a plug at the top of the rad that should be pulled while refilling to help bleed air.

 

Is it just the t-stat? Well, one of the things you can do is have your car's cooling system checked for hydrocarbons. Pretty much any that show up there is an indication of bad HGs. If that test is negative, or you're just willing to risk a few bucks, the stat is worth looking at.

 

Here are a few threads to read and hopefully give you a bit more insight:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=46479

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=47462

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=42014

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=19458

 

I'd suggest you further search this forum; there's lots of good info here.

 

--OB99W

[nipper]

I tried this test, and there were no bubbles coming from the open radiator cap. Actually, what would happen was the coolant would back up and overflow, so I see that's why my overflow tank is full.

 

Does this really mean the HG are still OK??? Could it really be as simple as changing the thermostat??? Where is the t-stat located? I guess it's worth trying before going to the mechanic and spending big bucks.

 

One thing that was previously interesting is that when the temp would rise up to "H", it would then fall back to the normal range, usually in a short time. Is the t-stat sticking?

 

Edit: I think I should add that there have been times when the temp guage has been in the normal range, but the heater would not blow hot. More evidence that it's a t-stat problem, or am I kidding myself?

 

well the first thing to do is the cheapest, replace the thermostate, and test the old one. You test the old one by putting it in a pot of water, use a meat thermometer in the water, and bring the pot to boil, wt=atch to see when the thermostate opnes.

If it doesnt open, well then you can breathe easier, if it does .. keep a close eye on the temp gauge.

 

nipper

[Setright]

Lack of cabin heat means poor circulation. This could be caused by a faulty water pump or "vapour lock" in the water pump due to HG failure.

[lekmedm]

Well, this morning I picked up a t-stat at my local Subie dealer. I've got coolant, and distilled water, so now I just need the time to pop it in.

 

While I was at the dealer, I asked what a head job would cost. For $2200 - $2500 they pull the engine, tear down just about the whole thing, and put it back together with all new gaskets, seals, and the like. The thought of spending that kind of money just twists my innards.

[BigMattyD]

That seems to be a lot of money to replace the head gaskets. I would think you could buy a whole new engine and swap it for that price.

 

Maybe I'm wrong..

 

Matt

[OB99W]

Well, this morning I picked up a t-stat at my local Subie dealer. I've got coolant, and distilled water, so now I just need the time to pop it in.

Before you do the job, it's very important to know how to minimize air getting trapped in the cooling system. If you haven't already seen this procedure by Setright, do yourself a favor and take a look:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21681

 

Once you've got the system filled and have warmed up the engine, make a note of (or mark) how high the coolant is in the overflow tank. After you turn the engine off, some coolant should eventually be pulled back into the radiator from the overflow tank; if not, there are a few possibilities:

 

1) You did a fantastic job of purging the system, leaving no air in it at all, and your coolant doesn't expand when hot. (In other words, not very likely!)

 

2) You did such a poor job of purging the system of air that it can't develop enough suction.

 

3) The aftermarket radiator cap isn't working correctly, and an OEM one might be needed.

 

4) Uh-oh, the suction that should be created by contraction is being bled off elsewhere, or "air" is being introduced again, possibly via HG leaks.

 

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

 

--OB99W

[nipper]

Exactly what are they doing. headgaskets should be alot cheaper then that, im guessing 1100 for head gaskets belts etc ... 2500 is about what it costs to get a motor from ccr and have someone install it.

 

 

nipper

[lekmedm]

I agree about the cost for replacing the HG's. The hair on the back of my neck stood straight up right before I passed out when I heard the price! I will say, though, that I believe I've seen others here on the board quote similar prices from their dealers, so I'm not completely surprised.

 

So anyways, I started working on the car last night. I got the coolant all drained out. No oil in the coolant. I understand that it is a potentially good sign, although not definitive. You know, while I was waiting for the coolant to drain and was layingon my back under the car, I noticed that it may be not so bad to get at the spark plugs from under the car. I've been meaning to change the plugs and wires (I've been reading on how to do this here as well). It was a PITA since it was my first time on a Subie, but I pulled the two from the driver's side so far. So here's another question to you all. When there is HG failure, is there anything you can see on the plugs? Mine are actually in great shape with a nice, normal grey coloring to the tips. I believe that's normal as opposed to black gunk on them or something similar.

 

Tonight I should finish things up. I'll pull the other two plugs, put in all new plugs and a new wire set, refill the radiator, and keep my fingers crossed. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and links. Keep 'em comin'!

[OB99W]

Tonight I should finish things up. I'll pull the other two plugs, put in all new plugs and a new wire set, refill the radiator, and keep my fingers crossed. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and links. Keep 'em comin'!

Setright posted a change to his coolant refilling procedure today, adding it to the end of the thread that I gave a link to yesterday. You should probably take a look if you haven't already seen it.

 

--OB99W

[lekmedm]

Bad news everyone..... I still have my problem. Here's the rundown...

 

I drained out all the coolant and replaced the thermostat with an OEM. (While I was down there I noticed that the spark plugs were accessable, so I replaced them, too, but that's a subject for another thread.) So today I take a nice ride of over 100 miles with stops, and this is what happened. With nice, even acceleration everything was just fine. There were no problems whatsoever for over 100 miles. I could even drive at 70-80 mph and the temp was good all the way. At the end I indulged in a little bit of "spirited" driving that included some harder acceleration, and BOOM, the temp shot right up! It was good that I was close to home. When I opened the hood, the whole area around the battery was wet with coolant again and the reserve was also full.

 

I don't get it. If this was a head gasket problem, wouldn't it exist all the time under all conditions? I did the check of filling up the radiator and starting the car with the cap off to check for bubbles - nothing! Could the water pump be failing??? Please help! I really don't want to spend any more money on mechanics for this car.

[cookie]

symptoms like yours have been reported. As they get worse they act up all the time. They often don't show up on all the time honored tests.

I agree with the other folks that it is time for gaskets.

[OB99W]

Bad news everyone..... I still have my problem.

It's been said before, but it stands repeating: Don't drive the car when it's severely overheating; even if the cause is initially something minor, it will rapidly become major. Having said that...

 

Your problem needs further diagnosis. I don't want to give you false hope, and the HGs are a possibility that may be becoming more likely, but there are still some less-expensive potential causes. Boiling (which can be due to localized overheating) can just as readily blow coolant out of the system as can cylinder gases.

 

The first thing to do is make sure the coolant is topped off again, and purged of air. Next, verify that the fans are running. When warm, at least one should be on, and then with A/C running both should operate. When cruising at highway speeds, especially in cool weather, the air flow even without the fans might be sufficient to prevent overheating. Hill climbing or "spirited" driving (as you described it) could then make fan problems evident. (By the way, do you hear any engine "ping"?) A marginal water pump might also only become a problem under more-demanding conditions.

 

One thing you could try is running the heater at full blast while "pushing" things, and see whether the engine temp still becomes excessive. If it "keeps it's cool", it's more likely that the problem is cooling-system related; if not, HGs become higher on the list of suspects.

 

--OB99W

[lekmedm]

It's been said before, but it stands repeating: Don't drive the car when it's severely overheating; even if the cause is initially something minor, it will rapidly become major. Having said that...

 

Your problem needs further diagnosis. I don't want to give you false hope, and the HGs are a possibility that may be becoming more likely, but there are still some less-expensive potential causes. Boiling (which can be due to localized overheating) can just as readily blow coolant out of the system as can cylinder gases.

 

The first thing to do is make sure the coolant is topped off again, and purged of air. Next, verify that the fans are running. When warm, at least one should be on, and then with A/C running both should operate. When cruising at highway speeds, especially in cool weather, the air flow even without the fans might be sufficient to prevent overheating. Hill climbing or "spirited" driving (as you described it) could then make fan problems evident. (By the way, do you hear any engine "ping"?) A marginal water pump might also only become a problem under more-demanding conditions.

 

One thing you could try is running the heater at full blast while "pushing" things, and see whether the engine temp still becomes excessive. If it "keeps it's cool", it's more likely that the problem is cooling-system related; if not, HGs become higher on the list of suspects.

 

--OB99W

 

Yeah, I certainly don't drive around with the needle on "H" for any time. I would usually stop, let it cool down, add more coolant and make it home. This time, however, I was close to home so it was a minute or less. What was interesting this time is that the system pulled back in everything from the reserve tank which was full after this incident. It didn't do that before and would just leave it full.

 

Anyway, I have a bad feeling in my gut that it may end up being the dreaded HG issue. The idea about the fans is certainly worth checking.

 

I know there have been write-ups on changing the head gaskets, but I'd like to hear from anyone who has actually done it how difficult would they rate the job. I'm by no means a mechanic, but can follow directions very well and can do a fair job of troubleshooting when unforseen problems arise. I'm not interested in tearing down the whole engine. I just want to fix this problem. I bought this car for my wife to drive especially in the winter and have already had all new brakes put on as well as new winter tires. I can't afford to put crazy money in the dealer's pockets.

[tomson1355]

lekmedm,

 

The symptoms are not apparent all the time because the rate at which the engine puts out heat varies, and the rate at which the cooling system removes and disposes of that heat varies, especially with the air pockets that the leaky head gasket has allowed into your cooling system. You can check out the cap and the thermostat and the fans, etc., but you have the engine(2.5L DOHC), the mileage, and the symptoms of leaky HGs.

 

I sympathize. I was in your same position a year ago, and didn't have the money to pay someone else to fix the problem. I found this board, and Skip's repair page,

http://home.comcast.net/~skipnospam/

and did the job myself for less than four hundred dollars. It takes time and effort, but it is very rewarding and satisfying, not to mention money-saving.

 

Skip's page is great, and if, after reading it, you don't feel too daunted, give it a try. There are many excellent people here who love to answer questions and give you a hand. You don't have to remove the engine to do the job, BTW, and I didn't the first time I did one. and don't let the valve adjustment part scare you. You can check those with a feeler guage prior to removal and you may not need to do anything with them.

 

Tom

[lekmedm]

So here's the latest installment to my saga....

 

I took the car for a ride to warm things up and to also check the fans. They work just fine. I did this time find a few bubbles coming up in the reserve tank. I'm fairly positive that there is no more air in the system after the drain, so it looks like I have the beginnings of HG failure.

 

I called around to a few dealers in the area and am shocked at the range of costs they have quoted me. I'll be going to the dealer in Bethleham, PA who quoted me at $1400 - $1500 for the whole job. Some were quoting me as high as $2500!!!! Anyway, for better or for worse, I'm going to have a dealer work on it. I was considering doing it myself, but I don't feel that I'm quite that competant, it would take me forever, and this is my wife's car, so it needs to be done right.

 

Keep your fingers crossed.

[OB99W]

I took the car for a ride to warm things up and to also check the fans. They work just fine. I did this time find a few bubbles coming up in the reserve tank. I'm fairly positive that there is no more air in the system after the drain, so it looks like I have the beginnings of HG failure.

If you're getting bubbles, a test can be made for CO (carbon monoxide), which would verify exhaust gases.

 

--OB99W

[lekmedm]

Well, The dealer just called me and said there's a knock in the engine. Now I don't know what to do. He's saying it would be most cost effective to just replace the engine, but I'm thinking if I get one from a salvage yard I may end up with one that is also full of problems. CCR wants over $3000 for one incl. shipping. ...and then the cost of install... I can't afford that.

 

What am I supposed to do? If I tear the engine down myself, what will I need to put it back together, I mean what's causing the knock? I'm no mechanic, but considering what the potential costs may be, I might just try this on my own after all.

 

So I'm asking for ideas/opinions. What are my options?

[nipper]

did YOU hear a knock when you had the car. can you go over and ask him to point out the knock.

i would go with a sohc used engine with a warrenty from a junk yard. i personally like the dohc engine (so im a little weird), but in your shoes i would go with a sohc or a 2.2L

 

nipper

[lekmedm]

Well, here's the latest, and hopefully that last bit of news for this thread. I had the dealer go ahead and just do the HG replacement. It cost $1688 including machining the heads.As far as the knock is concerned.... yes, there's a knock. However, it seems to me that it is more of the piston-slap variety rather than bad bearings. It's worse when the engine is cold. It doesn't completely go away after fully hot, but it's not as noticeable. Oh, well. I think I might change over to Mobil 1. Maybe that'll help a bit.

 

Thanks again for everyone's advice!