Deciding on New Subaru

[crazymjb]

Well my mother decided she didn't want the dodge magnum so instead she will be trading the minivan for a subaru. I am responsible for the research. Here is what we are considering:

 

Outback 3.0R VDC

 

B9 Tribeca

 

Legacy 2.5 GT

 

 

Ultimatly we want something that will last a long time, is a little fun to drive, and does well in heavy snow, can tow stuff, and would be usuable in a real off-road situation.

 

I was wondering if the VDC is worth the torque loss over the turbo charged engine(that 3.0 is pretty weak IMO). We really are looking for a great AWD system, not a decent one. We also want reliablility and durability.

 

Now for a few questions:

 

What AWD system does the B9 have and how does it handle in both poor and good conditions?

 

Are xenons offered on the outback, I see it already has the projector housing, and my mother loves my fathers xenon setup(05 TL) as do I.

 

Is the stock navigation system any good, and how much does it cost?

 

Im sorry, but do they plan to give these cars facelifts any time soon, the new ones are VERY ugly on the outside IMHO, though I love the tribeccas interior and don't mind that of the outback and legacy.

 

Thank you very much,

 

Mike

[Dickensheets]

I would test drive them all if you have the time. Also don't rule out the Forrester. My Father has an 04 model and it handles sprightlier than my heavier Outback.

 

As for the AWD, any of the systems should be more than adequate unless your mother goes out of her way to go wheelin'.

 

If I were in the market today it would be a Legacy/Outback or Forrester, or Outback Sport, hard choice. All are super reliable as is any car these days if it's maintained and not abused.

 

I would not rule out the non turbo 2.5 either. It's less complex and has ample power for most applications. These cars can tow light to moderate loads well, but are not F-250s, nor do they try to be.

 

ps - Subaru doesn't make a "decent" AWD system. You only get the awesome variety.

 

rd

[mikkl]

Not answering any of your questions, but asking another. Why consider the just the Legacy GT and not the Legacy 2.5I or Limited? I find that the base 2.5 has plenty of power and torque with significantly better fuel mileage than the GT. Also, if I recall correctly, the GT requires premium fuel.

 

If economics are a part of the decision, I would road test both the GT and the base versions. The GT will cost you real money with every tank.

 

As for your other questions, I believe the Subaru.com site can answer many of them--at least as regards features.

 

mikkl

[swc7916]

The Outback, with its' higher ground clearance, will be the most off-road capable of the three - and it can be gotten in a turbo version. If most of the driving will be in-town I would go for the turbo over the H6. I think that if I were doing a lot of long-distance driving then I may consider the H6. I agree that the B9 Tribeca is ugly, but what's wrong with the Legacys? The Legacy has been on a 5-year cycle, so don't expect a facelift until 2010.

[nipper]

They all have the same AWD system which is the best to date. Keep away from anything that runs on preimum fule if you are looking to keep your costs down. The 6 cylinder is a very smooth engine, but we all know how long the 4cylinders last, and they have plenty of power. The turbo is run, but from seeing the older turbos, they dont last as long as the regular 4 cyl. This may not be a problem with mom unless she has a lead foot. I too would put the outback on your list, the B9 fro m what i hear can use some more power. Do test drive all of them and the final decision is yours . Personally i owould be between the outback and the legacy gt.

 

 

 

nipper

[crazymjb]

My family is comfortable financially, not comfortable to drop 36 on the VDC, but comfortable enough to spend in the high 20s to low 30s. This will be a mix of city and highway driving. Our other car is an 05 TL, which I happen to think is one of the most beautiful cars of all time(big acura fan), and I just feel it looks much better than the current subaru line up inside and out, though I love the tribeca's interior, and don't have anything wrong with the legacy's or outbacks interior.

 

As for fuel we average about 23 on the TL premium unleaded with a 11:1 compression ratio(get knocking with anything less)

 

I wouldn't mind getting a turbo outback if it offered everything the 3.0R limited edition does.

 

Now what about the audio and navigation system? Can anyone who has em vouch for them. The audio system wasn't listed as DVD-A, and was listed at a relativly low wattage. Are there any upgrade packages(think I saw a sub/amp kit)?

 

I am also curious about navi which we will be getting. Our TL has a stock alpine system which is supposed to be the best OEM system, how well do the ones from subaru work, and who makes them?

 

What about the HIDs, that is something I would really like.

 

What about pricing, how far will Subaru go below invoice? We got 500 below on the TL without argument. Is it possible to get the VDC for around $31K, how about a 5 seat tribeca with navigation?

 

As far as my mothers driving style, she is currently lead footed on the minivan as that has no pick up at all, and she is quite happy with my dads car, which she doesnt ALWAYS floor(238 Tq, 270hp drive it(automatic 5spd) to 60 in 6.3ish, as per old SAE ratings, they now use revised which drop the stats(hp and tq), however no other car company currently uses the revised standards). When in the TL she usually isnt too hard on it, but that is because you dont have to be, in an underpowered car she would be giving it a lot more gas, not to say we havnt tried the 0-60 runs before .

 

For towing I would be towing a small trailer I am yet to purchase with a snow blower or two on it, and in the summer maybe a go-kart, or building materials, maybe 750-1000 pounds trailer included. Also a reciever mounted bike rack if available.

 

Is the outback just as good offroad as any SUV with equal ground clearance.(I would like to go trailing, not tell my mother of course).

 

Thanks again for the great info.

 

Mike.

 

P.S. I would also like to add that we were originally looking at the dodge magnum RT-AWD(hemi) to replace the minivan but it was having too many problems, required long order time, and had poor visability. What would subaru give us for our van, close to kelly?

 

We have also never owned a subaru.

[1 Lucky Texan]

If 'real' offroad means mud, gravel,dirt and not rock crawling, most of those will do well. I think the Legacy may have the lowest ride of them.

 

Actually, I think you should check out the OBW, Forester and maybe the Baja.

 

The turbo Foresters are rockets!

 

We like our '03 OBW just fine.

[crazymjb]

We will probably end up with an OBW. Now do they make an XT model with the same features as the 3.0R limited?

 

Also, which engine is better for use in heavy snow and towing(again not large amounts of weight, but plywood or snow blowers?)

 

Also, does the normal AWD system on the 3.0R limited have TCS(applies break to wheel that is spinning to fast), or is that only on the VDC? Traction control is something I would really like to have. Would that only be available on the VDC? Why does the VDC cost so much more, is it just the AWD system?

 

Does anyone have an invoice for the VDC?

 

Again, how flexible is subaru on their pricing?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[swc7916]

I think that only the H6 has VDC. Anyway, with AWD why do you think that you need traction control? Pricing depends on the competition in your area - in the Seattle area there a least 6 Subaru dealers and I have bought 6 new ones and have never gotten less than invoice. I believe that there are rebates on most of the models now, so you may get a price that is effectively under invoice. If you think that you want one, just buy it and enjoy it.

[crazymjb]

It seemed to me that the AWD systems without VDC only used differentials and had no form of traction control, so while power could be split up between the front half and the rear half, it could not be transfered from right to left once at the rear or front, which is what I was looking for. We live directly on a turn in the middle of a hill, and it usually ices completly over, plus our drivay is on a slight incline, so getting all the power right where its needed is crucial.

 

The good news is subaru said the VDC comes with nav standard, my dealer offered me 34 out the door, but I would like at most 32.

 

Do the High beams in the projector housing on the new outbacks use solenoids, or seperate filaments?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[1 Lucky Texan]

It seemed to me that the AWD systems without VDC only used differentials and had no form of traction control, so while power could be split up between the front half and the rear half, it could not be transfered from right to left once at the rear or front, which is what I was looking for. We live directly on a turn in the middle of a hill, and it usually ices completly over, plus our drivay is on a slight incline, so getting all the power right where its needed is crucial.

 

The good news is subaru said the VDC comes with nav standard, my dealer offered me 34 out the door, but I would like at most 32.

 

Do the High beams in the projector housing on the new outbacks use solenoids, or seperate filaments?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

 

You might take a look at the pricing and features listed over at http://www.cars101.com . maybe something there about the light s too - I dunno.

[crazymjb]

According to the dealer and web site only the sti has the xenons, though I saw them on the tribecca too.

 

I think it should boil down to outback XT with limited package with navigation or outback 3.0Rvdc. Though I would love another quick car I don't know how neccesary it is to have a faster car if the road holding isnt as good as that of the Legacy. We will probably end up going with the 3.0R, as I like that AWD system and think its best for the poor road conditions outside of Boston. (plus I would like to go on some trails with it, without informing my folks).

[rweddy]

The turbo is run, but from seeing the older turbos, they dont last as long as the regular 4 cyl. This may not be a problem with mom unless she has a lead foot.

nipper

Older 2.2t go forever, I have seen many with over 300k on the clock. Now the 1.8t was an issue but the 2.2 turbo was bullet proof.

[Seahag1978]

Baja 5 sp. turbo. Versatile. Truck bed. Very good comfortable seating. Powerful. Right off the git go... especially at the interchange from 93 South onto 95 North, saved my butt more than once. Comfortable ride not stiff or too sway-y on "Massa-potholes" roads. AND it's hella cute. Awesome trucklet. It will tow. I highly recommend it. I have had mine for almost a year, and love it... but you STILL can't beat an old Brat for handling in any road/weather condition. Done.

[crazymjb]

With the VDC do you get Frong rear power transfer WITH front and rear traction control? Is this a clutch based, differential based, or CVT based system? What is the maximum amount of power that can be sent to the rear? To the front? could I, for instance, if stuck, put 90+% of the power to the RR wheel?

 

Edit: I see know that it uses VTD couple with front and rear TCS. Does anyone have the % numbers of how much it can transfer between front and rear?

 

Also, does the clutch system ever wear out?

 

Finally, do subarus(all outback models), have an electronic stability program?

 

Thansks,

 

Mike

[subiefan]

According to Subaru.com, torque split is 45/55 front to rear, until slip detected. I'm pretty sure this is computer-controlled. I don't think you can manually change it.

Any other questions will have to be directed to newer Sube owners. I have an older '93 myself and have no experience and little knowledge of the newer models. I just had some free time and looked up those figures. The Outback 3.0 R seems like a good car, although I don't really see the need for AWD and VDC either. For some reason, I just don't like computers controlling anything in my car. My car tracks along just fine on slick roads, and it's not even AWD...no ABS either. There is no safety device better than experience and good driving skills. Just my .02 which is probably only really worth a quarter of a penny now due to inflation.

[crazymjb]

Thanks, and I know there is CURRENTLY no computer that substitutes good driving skills. However computers can definatly make driving easier and safer. And that is what I want for my family.

[rweddy]

According to Subaru.com, torque split is 45/55 front to rear, until slip detected. I'm pretty sure this is computer-controlled. I don't think you can manually change it.

Sorry this is not true.

 

First off, the AWD systems used in Subarus differ, depending on what transmission you have.

 

Automatic-equipped Subarus use a computer-controlled hydraulic clutch pack, similar to those found in an automatic transmission, to transfer torque to the rear axle when the sensors detect a 20% difference in axle rotation speeds between the front and rear axles. Normally torque is split 90 front/10 rear. Not really all that different from most of the other AWD systems.

 

Manual-equipped Subarus use a viscous coupling, similar to a limited slip differential (and certain full-time 4WD transfer cases) where under normal, dry circumstances the torque is split 50/50 until the physical difference of the rotational speeds of the axles causes the hydraulic fluid in the coupling to heat up to the point where it acts as a clutch, forcing the two axles to turn at the same speed. It's basically the sameas full-time 4WD without the extra low gear. It can transfer torque front and back almost 100/0 or 0/100 if necessary.

[crazymjb]

The VDC equipped system has the VTD transfer case with TCS in both the front and back. I think for that particular unit it is split 45/55. I am still curious, as it is variable, by how much it is variable. in subarus online presentation for "active" cruise control it is 100% variable, for the VTD it appeared to be 75% variable but I am not 100% sure.

 

I would also like to know how deep snow the outbacks can navigate. Our street(one way Hill) is often last to be plowed. Will the outback move in 80-10 inches of snow or will it get stuck? I know it has 8.9 inches of ground clearance, but I figure even in 10 inches it still may be able to move, not sure though.

[Ranger83]

Well my mother decided she didn't want the dodge magnum so instead she will be trading the minivan for a subaru. I am responsible for the research. Here is what we are considering:

 

Outback 3.0R VDC

B9 Tribeca

Legacy 2.5 GT

 

Ultimatly we want something that will last a long time, is a little fun to drive, and does well in heavy snow, can tow stuff, and would be usuable in a real off-road situation.////

 

Pardon me, but if your mother thinks all the curent Subaru vehicles are ugly, and she is buying now, why even post here? The future design direction of Subaru is immaterial if your mother is buying a car now. Most middle-aged moms in that market buy Toyota Highlanders with the towing package. Or Explorers if towing is more important. What are you towing, how much does it weigh, and how far are you towing it?

 

There's another choice for 2006 - the Outback 3.0R. This is similar to basic Outback but with the 3.0 six cylinder. It also has the 5 spd auto; automatic climate control; 6 disc changer; and 5 spoke wheels. I bought one a couple weeks ago. I paid a little over $26,000 at Manchester, NH Subaru. That's less than the LL Bean or VDC, the other two H6 wagons.

 

The H6 seems to be holding up well. If your mother thinks 0-60 time is the sole significant measure of performance, the 3.0 is not for her. The 3.0 is very quick at highway speeds, as well as being quiet, smooth, and relatively fuel efficient. Towing capacity and MPG are higher than the turbo fours.

 

With dedicated snows (I have Nokian RSI's) it's as good as just about anything in snow. The 3.0R and LL Bean use a slightly different drive system than the 2.5i or VDC equipped vehicles.

 

No Subaru - in fact no crossover-style vehicle - is usable in a "real off-road situation." In fact, most body on frame 4WD vehicles are not usable in a "real off-road situation." They are far too heavy, undersprung, and the chassis components are not robust enough to do anything other than get really, really broke and/or stuck. Just putting another radio in the M151A1 military jeeps we used made them a lot more likely to get stuck - and they were a whole lot more capable than just about any of the civilian offerings.

 

But Subarus are great on roads, even really poor roads, which represents 100% of driving for 95% of US drivers. And a heck of a lot more secure in bad weather than a Magnum or minivan.

 

[crazymjb]

Thanks. Speed is not the sole chosing reason for her, she said she would prefer something a little quicker but between that and the VDC she would like the VDC. As far as towing it would be nothing more than a snow blower or two, and some light building materials. So maybe 1500 LBS including the trailer.

 

My mom would get a small suv, like the tribecca, but she doesnt want anything bigger than that, so I figure, screw it, lets go with a wagon.

 

As far as "off-roading" I am not talking any "severe" trails, but I have always wanted to drive through one of those wooded trails with a few rocks here or there. Basically I would like to know how the subarus compare to modern jeeps(grand cherokee, not wrangler).

 

When it comes to getting the VDC instead of just the 3.0R(which the VDC has) it comes down to what the VDC has standard:

1. Electronic stability program(VDC)

2. Limited group(leather, 6 disk changer)

3. Navigation

 

All of which are required on our next car.

 

I have been arguing the price online for a few days. I am trying to get them to go 31 after the 1k cash back. One dealer agreed but they said it was an 05 without navi, but I think I can still hold them in that neigborhood. We are going in later this week to argue the price and possibly buy, though that is unlikely. We will probably end up going with the 1.9% APR instead of the 1k back.

 

The one thing I find really dissapointing is that they only seem to offer taupe leather, and I was hoping for black.

 

We will likely get the package with the shock sensor and autodimming mirror, and are getting the tow hitch and all season mats.

[Hocrest]

... Will the outback move in 80-10 inches of snow or will it get stuck? I know it has 8.9 inches of ground clearance, but I figure even in 10 inches it still may be able to move, not sure though.

 

Both my Legacy and SVX go easily through over 12" of snow, so yeah, I think the OB can handle 10".

[crazymjb]

Great. Its important because my mom drives to different schools for meetings sometimes 20+ miles away(hence the need for navi) and she would like to be able to get back in a snow storm, especially when it comes down hard.

 

Edit:

Does anyone have pics of the guage cluster and center console at night on the 05+? What about this big sunroof I am hearing about?

 

Also, do subarus come with windo tint? Does the 3.0R VDC offer a black interior?

 

Thanks

[Ranger83]

As far as "off-roading" I am not talking any "severe" trails, but I have always wanted to drive through one of those wooded trails with a few rocks here or there. Basically I would like to know how the subarus compare to modern jeeps(grand cherokee, not wrangler).

 

It doesn't. The Grand Cherokee has a low range and the ability to lock the differentials.

 

The Outback is fine for wooded trails with a few rocks. That's not "off-road," but "bad road."

 

As long as you replace the OEM Potenza RE92's with dedicated snows any of them will be extremely capable in snow - which is why you see them everywhere in New England, the Rockies, and the Pacific Northwest. How much snow isn't really a question that can be answered - thre's a big difference between high altitude powder and the windblown wet concrete you get near the seacoasts.

 

Subaruoutback.org and Legacygt.com have entire forums devoted to pre-purchase questions of these vehicles.

[crazymjb]

Thanks for those sites. Also thanks for the good info. I just figured it could do just as well with a car with locking diffys since TCS is always giving the correct amount of power to the wheels with the correct amount of grip.