Outback VDC

[crazymjb]

High, we are trying to decide between an OBW 3.0R VDC Limited or an OBW XT Limited with Navigation. Both will end up being similarly priced and offer the same equipment. I figured since the OBW is obviously not a sports car and we alread have a sports sedan(05 TL) it may make more sense just to go with the better AWD system and the more "durable" engine.

 

Does anyone here have experience with the various systems? I am curious as to how well the VDC works over the system used on the XT. Does the XTs system have TCS also, or just front-back power distribution?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[mikem]

I have had an 04 3.0 wagon and now have an 06 3.0R wagon. neither had vdc but i don't think i need it in my driving so i can't relate any experience with it. However, the basics of the 3.0 are very nice and it is a comfortable car. Been reliable and the quality is very high for the price. The 04 required the "fwd fuse " action with a spare on the front, the 06 does not mention that in the owners manual nor does it have the"fwd fuse" position. we average about 25mph in the city and about the same or a small amout better on the interstate at 65+.

the 06 rear seat also folds forward without having to flip the bottom up. Much easier to use. the 06 seems to sit higher, i think it has 17" tires instead of 15 or 16.

hope that is of some value.

[crazymjb]

Thanks.

 

I was upset that the VDC equipped vehicles(tribeca and OBW) were the only subarus with an Electronic Stability Program. Which is a requirement on any new car we get. On the other hand it does narrow down my choices.

 

Thanks again,

 

Mike

[nipper]

YOU know every car I rent I disable the traction control and stability control. if your a good driver you dont need them, and on passenger cars, especially awd i think they are a waste of time.

I also have discovered alot of these units tend to make people think the roads are much safer then they are, when they arent. i know when ive had it on a car, I was shocked to find out how slick the roads actually were, and I could nto tell. This is all fine and well when your the only car on the road, but when you have to make an emegency manuver and your overdriving the weather conditions, you get in trouble.

Subarus have survived all these years without stability control, and I dont think anyone has ever rolled one (which is what they are trying to avoid). Also using electronics to make up for poor driving skills is just a bad idea.

im all for airbags, which they still had the disable switch for the abs (for gravel of unplowed snow), and like the electronic brake boost. traction control and stability control on 4wd cars (i said cars not suv) seem to be a waste. They come in handy on 2wd rwd cars, and i havent had enough exp with them on FWD cars.

 

Just my opinion

nipper

[crazymjb]

Well I look at statistics, and ESP has been proven very effective, much more so then ABS. We have it on our other car of which I am a member of the forum and many people have had there asses saved by it.

 

We also have tested the system on the acura by going on an empty road and trying a few manuvers, both with it on and off(on the snow/ice). With it off the car slid around, with it on it handle very decently.

 

The manuals always include a warning that ESP is no substitute for good driving skills, but it is very helpful and has proven effective on our other vehicle.

 

We know not to get a false sense of security with it, so that doesn't become a problem, but I could see how it would effect some.

 

I also don't see how they are a waste of time, seeing as dying prematurly is more of a waste, and when using the ESP on our other car it handles better in poor conditions.

 

ESP is not ARC(active roll control), that is a seperate system. Also, we are not getting to make up for poor driving skills, but rather to compliment good ones.

 

I don't mean to come off as harsh or protective, but I am a big advocate of electronic stability programs.

 

Mike

 

P.S. Here is one of many articles:

 

"Swedish National Road Administration, Borlange, Sweden. anders.lie@vv.se

 

ESP (Electronic Stability Program) has recently been introduced onto the market in an effort to reduce the number and severity of loss-of-control automobile accidents. This reduction is expected to be particularly evident for accidents on roads with low friction (e.g., wet or icy conditions). This study aimed to evaluate the statistical effectiveness of ESP using data from accidents that occurred in Sweden during 2000 to 2002. To control for exposure, induced exposure methods were used, where ESP-sensitive to ESP-insensitive accidents and road conditions were matched in relation to cars equipped with and without ESP. Cars of similar, or in some cases identical, make and model were used to isolate the role of ESP. As predicted, the study showed a positive effect of ESP in circumstances where road surfaces have low friction. The overall effectiveness was 22.1 (+/-21) percent, while for accidents on wet roads, the effectiveness increased to 31.5 (+/-23.4) percent. On roads covered with ice and snow, the corresponding effectiveness was 38.2 (+/-26.1) percent. In addition, ESP was found to be effective for three different types of cars: small front-wheel drive; large front-wheel drive; and large rear-wheel drive."

[idosubaru]

num

[wrxsubaru]

 

ESP is not ARC(active roll control), that is a seperate system. Also, we are not getting to make up for poor driving skills, but rather to compliment good ones.

 

 

This is the one thing i disagree with you on, in some situations it would be faster and easier to get the car into a slide to get out of the way or get around a corner, and ESP will not let you do it. ESP is not a perfect replacement for good driving and will not compliant it alot of the time. It will slow a good driver down. But it will for well over probably 70% of the genrale population help.

[nipper]

The manuals always include a warning that ESP is no substitute for good driving skills, but it is very helpful and has proven effective on our other vehicle.

 

We know not to get a false sense of security with it, so that doesn't become a problem, but I could see how it would effect some.

 

I also don't see how they are a waste of time, seeing as dying prematurly is more of a waste, and when using the ESP on our other car it handles better in poor conditions.

 

."

 

 

Just said it was my opinion. There really is no good excuse for lack of driving skill, or training. Drivers ed programs have gotten so poor of late, along with defnesive driving courses (at least in NYS). i have taken two of them for the insurance discount. for some it was a nce refresher course, but really it needs to be more a hands on training course.

Good driving skills go with you from car to car, where if you dont have the skills, but reley on the electronics, nt all cars have the electronics.

Ild rather see somne drive at 15-20 mph in poor weather then at 40 being over confident cause of the electronics. And also those how are going to overdrive the weather are going to do it no matter how the car is equiped.

The one thing people tend to forget its easy to get a car moving, but its hard to get it to stop if you overdrive.Now if they could get the systems to cut the throttle or make the pedal harder to press i really poor weather.

Staistically, when ABS forst came out the stasticis all said it was the best thing ever, now they are mixed. i think once we get alot more of these other systems on the road we will see the same thing.

i always thought it would be great if driver ed programs occured during fall and winter , or winter and spring, instead of summer school.

Training for anything else that may endanger a life always has training for worst case scenarios (drills), but drivers-ed doesn't aside from discussing it.

Maybe im just spoiled since dad was a profesional driver and he taught us all how to drive in poor weather, and we never had a problem.

 

 

nipper

 

 

oops sorry for rambling on

[crazymjb]

The Stability program on our Acura has a bypass button, which turns off all the systems but ABS and EBD.

 

I figured subaru must have this button too?

 

Also, we do have a throttle cut on the Acura. One of the things we tested on the road was flooring it without the system on, the revs went right up to 5 but the wheels just spun and it slid side to side a little. Then we floored it with the system on and it limited RPM, less and less as we started moving faster. I believe the subaru does this too. Both cars have Drive by Wire systems.

 

NO doubt people get cocky with these systems. Here is a link to pics of someone with the same car we have(different color) going 60 on the ice:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/sl1200mk4/

 

I also want to add that it looks like with the advanced VDC system the spinning of wheels is probably unneccesary.

 

 

Mike

[bulwnkl]

The overall effectiveness was 22.1 (+/-21) percent, while for accidents on wet roads, the effectiveness increased to 31.5 (+/-23.4) percent. On roads covered with ice and snow, the corresponding effectiveness was 38.2 (+/-26.1) percent."

 

 

This would appear to indicate that OVERALL the systems can only barely be shown to be effective beyond the confidence interval of the study. When combined with the fact that they can be shown to be more effective on slick roads, this can only mean that they are detrimental on dry pavement. Any thoughts?

[crazymjb]

Either way the VDC does have an off button. That site was also a bad example. But an 8-12% worst case increase in safety on wet and snowy roads is pretty good.

 

Here is a link to a much better source of information: http://www.esceducation.org/what_experts_say/industry_reports.shtml

[crazymjb]

Firing back: ESP and TCS

 

Though we do not have the OBW yet, we have another vehicle equiped with ESP. Tonight the roads were covered with black ice and the system must have made at least 20 corrections. At least one of these times it saved us from coliding with a snow bank, another from sliding into an intersection(added more break force). We made a somewhat sharp turn at around 30(the roads are covered with black ice here in MA) and the car did not turn(kept sliding straight towards a snow bank for under 1 second), I then heard and felt a crunch from the right rear and the car turned just completing the 90 degree turn.

 

Just wanted to make my point.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[Peaty]

We have an 02 OB VDC Wagon, I find the system very effective. I agree that there is no replacement good driving, compared to the 8 other various Subaru's I've owned this one does the best in bad weather when driven with common sense. and yes it has an off button.

 

 

This quote was from NPR's web site:

 

Toyota found that electronic stability control reduced single-vehicle crashes in Japan by a remarkable 35 percent and head-on crashes by 30 percent. And in the European study, Mercedes-Benz, whose lineup has sported ESC as a standard feature since 1999, reported a 29 percent drop in single-vehicle accidents; crashes of all types fell 15 percent.

 

I have some VDC info here:

 

http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3047

 

I was pretty skeptical about the system myself, but after living with it for a few years I think it is worth while.

 

Peaty

 

www.scoobymods.com

[Skip]

what Peaty says times two (I have had 16 Subarus)

my VDC is an 03

 

With a set of Nokians I could probably do the Iditarod

 

only thing commom about common sense

is that

it's not too common

 

With these cars

Two brains are better than one

if your's is working.