99 Legacy Outback - Overheating Mystery

[dickens]

1999 Subaru Legacy Outback. Trying to determine if recent accident or

Subaru dealership at fault for engine overheat which is resulting in

having to get engine replaced.

 

Last Friday, Check Engine light came on. Took to Subaru dealer before

heading out on 600-mile road trip after Christmas to fix and ensure car

safe to drive. Also to check oil leak that had occured after a car

smashed into my right front bumper in November.

 

Subaru tech said check engine light was PO483, that engine cooling fans

were not connected and reconnected fans. First of all, how would

cooling fans not be connected? Could that be the fault of the collison

company not re-connecting them after doing work post-accident?

 

Secondly, on trip the car made it one-way, then overheated while

climbing Cajon Pass in CA. We took to Victorville garage and they

determined it was a thermostat problem, replace the thermostat, coolant

and sent us on our way.

 

We did fine for 150 miles until we started to climb up another big

hill. I gunned the engine to keep up speed and it immediately went to

H. We pulled over and the radiator had spewed coolant, engine was

steaming. We called a tow truck and had it towed home 80 miles.

 

Subaru dealership -- same one that diagnosed PO483 -- said we had a

hairline crack in engine due to overheating and engine would need to be

replaced.

 

Can anyone help me figure out:

1) Could the Subaru dealership misdiagnosed the PO483 and be

responsible for the overheat

2) What would cause the engine coolant fans to be disconnected? Does

that happen spontaneously or would it be a human error?

3) How long would the engine need to run w/o the coolant fans connected

to cause an engine problem?

 

THANK YOU for any input you can give.

[Subie Gal]

 

Can anyone help me figure out:

1) Could the Subaru dealership misdiagnosed the PO483 and be

responsible for the overheat

2) What would cause the engine coolant fans to be disconnected? Does

that happen spontaneously or would it be a human error?

3) How long would the engine need to run w/o the coolant fans connected

to cause an engine problem?

 

THANK YOU for any input you can give.

 

1 - i doubt the dealership was wrong. i bet they were spot on

 

2 - whomever repaired your car did not plug the rad. fans back in.

it has been known to happen

 

3 - the car only needs to overheat one time to destroy head gaskets or yes, possibly injure the shortblock itself.

 

Jamie

[nipper]

First tell me exaclth how hard a hit the car got to make you think it cause an oil leak? How many miles are on the car. Overheating a car will kill the engine. Yes if the body repair shop had to do front end workthey may have forgotten to plug in the fans.... or the connector could have had a broken lock tab, so the connector never stayed pluged in.

 

The cooling fans only come on when the temperiture hits a predetermined point. If you drive around and the car never sees that temp (cool wether or winter), they will never some on unless the ac/defroster is on, assuming they are pluged in. Load up the engine like climbing a steep hill, they should come on, if not you bake the engine.

Inspect the connnector to make sure this does not happen again. I would even have the connnector repalced just to be on the safe side.

Its hard to misdagnose that fault if they physically had to reconnnect the connector. Since th car made it one way, i serously think the connector is broken so it wont lock, or it wasnt pluged in far enough to lock it. If this is true, then both are liabel.

 

 

nipper

[idosubaru]

you likely do NOT need a new motor...hold tight while i babble on.....

 

here's what i would check immediately, or someone here can answer. unplug the connector yourself (it's really easy to get to, takes about 42 seconds). look at the fans and look at the one plug on the fan. unplug it and see if your CE light comes on with the car running. do this as a test to make sure that a disconnected fan will throw a code and CE light. on all older subaru's the CE light will not come on with the fans unplugged, maybe the newer ones are different, but i would check to be sure myself or ask someone on here, they probably know. while you're doing this you can check what nipper said and see if the clips are still on the connector.

 

i would also fill it up with pure antifreeze and drive it around a bit - don't let it overheat, but get it up to normal temperature and look for signs of antifreeze leaking under the car, in the engine bay or out the exhaust pipe and let us know what you find.

 

did the car overheat at all before the CE light came on the first time? what came first the CE light or the overheating or did you never see the temp gauge before the CE light came on?

 

subaru is not liable. even if they diagnosed it *wrong*, there is no way to prove anything, so i'd abandon trying to prove them wrong. most likely the body shop or broken tab like nipper said. in the winter it won't overheat unless the car sits at idle (no air flowing over the radiator and no fans to pull air through) or you load it up a hill or towing, etc like nipper said. did you ever idle for an extended period before the CE light and overheating episodes. if you let the car idle before (say 10 minutes or so) and it never overheated then the connector was plugged in at one time...or better yet do you ever remember hearing the fans run, they are audible when they kick on if you have the windows down or are outside of the car. ask anyone who rides with you frequently if they recall, they'd be likely to hear it as yo'ure in it while it's on most of the time.

 

this stealership is also completely and utterly full of crap if they told you a hairline crack in the motor, i would walk away and deal with someone else if that's really what they said. there is no way they could even prove a hairline crack without disassembling the motor and checking the failure point.

if you're misquoting their diagnosis i take back my harsh statements, otherwise leave now. overheating *normally* blows a head gasket, that's a very common occurence. the XT6 i just got out of a few minutes ago had blown headgaskets. i knew the previous owner, his sister drove the car while it was overheating and blew the headgaskets. i got the car from him, replaced the head gaskets and the motor runs great, had it for about 25,000 miles and 3 years now. my friends headgasket blew on his neon - replaced gasket and it ran great. my parents van overheated and blew a head gasket...same deal, another guys subaru XT overheated and blew a head gasket and i replaced it for him, ran great. i think you see a pattern, i have yet to see an overheat do anything but require a new headgasket. i just ordered 2 today for an XT Turbo that i overheated and had blown head gaskets - $44 for the set, i'll install them this week and the car will run just fine.

 

you most likley just need new head gaskets. head gasket jobs are posted about all the time on this site and they run about $1,000 - $1,200 at a dealer. did they do a compression test? a leak down test? did they give you any details or just look at it and say "hairline crack", because that's impossible to diagnose in practice. i'd replace the head gaskets (have someone like me who won't BS you about your motor, not that dealer). if you do'nt like that idea, have someone do a compression test and/or leak down test for you and give me the numbers and i'll tell you what i think.

[idosubaru]

1 - i doubt the dealership was wrong. i bet they were spot on

i doubt they were wrong either about the codes and fans, they were probably right. they were'nt "wrong" about the hairline crack either, they just completely lied or creatively worded it....let me explain so you're educated about your circumstances:

 

about the hairline crack, anyone on this group that has replaced a dozen or more headgaskets themself will tell you that is highly unlikely. i was a little harsh in the last post, but that marketing drives me crazy. they're using a very liberal definition of "engine" to scare this person into a very expensive and unnecessary repair. can you tell dealerships and shops have screwed over my friends and family numerous times in the past? i have not.

 

you may have a serious internal leak and the engine (the long block) is hosed. but the engine (short block) is likely fine. if by "hair line crack in the engine" they mean a "hair line crack in the headgasket", they are probably correct but using a liberal definition to scare you into a very large (and i repeat unnecessary) repair. if by "hair line crack in the engine" they literally mean a "hairline crack in the block casting" they are probably wrong or banking on the %1 chance of that happening (i have yet to ever see it on the any subaru over-heat that i've seen).

 

so i appologize in saying they are straight liars, but they are being very creative in their use of the english language.....at their customers expense. i like being straight forward. if you want to help with their next yatcht payment, then by all means have them replace the motor as it will certainly solve your issues. if you want your car reliably and cost-effectively repaired without supporting those bafoons, then listen to this group. pardon my distrust of dealers or my disapproval of liars.

[RallyKeith]

I don't want to throw this thread off track, but how the h e double hockey sticks can ANYONE diagnose a crack in an engine without tearing it apart? I had a friend that had a WRX motor break a rod and the dealership said it was due to oil starvation from a missed shift that caused the rod to bind, yet the engine was never torn apart to inspect the bearings. How the he!! does this fly?

 

It is very very easy to forget to connect those fans. I just did it the other day. I noticed it later in the day. Also, I think your 99 Legacy Outback has the last year of the DOHC 2.5 engine. That engine is known for having a 10-15% failure rate on the head gaskets. It may just be 100% coincidental that this happened when it did and the two things are not related.

 

Keith

[idosubaru]

but how the h e double hockey sticks can ANYONE diagnose a crack in an engine without tearing it apart?

 

that's not off topic at all keith. he needs to hear from people that know what they're talking about to avoid the run around.

[tunered]

im really curois to see how this plays out,most stealerships want to replace engines so they are not responsible for anything.they dont want the cost of having to do it again.most reman parts have a warranty but does not include labor,so if the replaced engine blows up next week they call where they got it,thier butt is covered. i would take bets nothing wrong but head gaskets.

[Subie Gal]

 

about the hairline crack, anyone on this group that has replaced a dozen or more headgaskets themself will tell you that is highly unlikely. i was a little harsh in the last post, but that marketing drives me crazy. they're using a very liberal definition of "engine" to scare this person into a very expensive and unnecessary repair.

 

 

my 99 Legacy GT not only had bad headgaskets

 

but a cracked block which needed to be replaced

 

i was uneducated at that time, and drove the car too long overheating

 

my own fault, but it was covered under warranty so I got lucky.

 

it does happen, has been known to happen, and will probably happen again

 

Jamie

[idosubaru]

my 99 Legacy GT not only had bad headgaskets

but a cracked block which needed to be replaced

i was uneducated at that time, and drove the car too long overheating

my own fault, but it was covered under warranty so I got lucky.

it does happen, has been known to happen, and will probably happen again

 

did you see the crack yourself? i'm curious where they crack. this would be good information to know so those of us that frequently work on motors know where to look. it certainly can happen. it is very unlikely and would require extended driving while overheating or horrific luck.

 

my biggest beef with these idiots is that they a$$ume catastrophe even though it'$ not likely without explaining anything. they $hould explain the $ituation and let the cu$tomer decide. i would totally understand if they highly suggested replacing the motor because they don't know and they won't take the risk or tell the customer X amount of dollars to pull the heads and check it. but they are absolutely lying by saying "it's a cracked block", i would trust them no further. if i can't trust them there i trust them no further.

 

has this guy even returned to and read this thread yet? ha ha!

[Subie Gal]

um...

did you read what i wrote???

 

the block was covered under warranty

 

why would a dealership make something up in order to replace the block under warranty

(on which they make little to no money)

 

no way would they "make up" damages to get "warranty work"

 

sounds to me that you've had 1-2 bad dealership experiences and are biased

 

for that, i am sorry...

but not all dealerships are incompetent, theiving morons

some of them actually do their jobs properly

 

point is....

blocks crack - - hairline cracks can form due to high heat/overstress

 

if you do not know this, then you dont know as much about engines

and you are inferring that you do...

 

Jamie

[nipper]

I had a friend that had a WRX motor break a rod and the dealership said it was due to oil starvation from a missed shift that caused the rod to bind, yet the engine was never torn apart to inspect the bearings. How the he!! does this fly?

 

WOW that goes under the the best fiction writing i have ever heard, especially considering that soobys have RPM govenors in them to protect from over reving.. Lugging the engine can cause that kind of failure, not missing a shift, and even then you have to work at it.

 

 

nipper

[idosubaru]

um...

did you read what i wrote???

 

the block was covered under warranty

 

not sure why you're fired up. i was asking where the crack was, i never insinuated the dealer or you at fault for anything. maybe you thought i was joking? i was literally curious where they would have a tendency to crack.

 

i never implicated you or your dealer, i'm glad you're comfortable there. i'm just a hobbiest, but no need to tear me down. i'm an aerospace engineer at NASA, i've had plenty of classes relating to stress, fatigue, failure, materials, engineering, casting, foundry, isotopes, alloys, etc. and i've happened to pull apart lots of motors that have overheated and not overheated.

 

i don't like his dealer lying to him, that's the bottom line.

i have held the same point all along, they have been unfair and lied to him. that's my only stance and i don't think he should tolerate that.

 

i was even trying to make it humerous as i'm finding it amusing that he still hasn't returned!!

[RallyKeith]

WOW that goes under the the best fiction writing i have ever heard, especially considering that soobys have RPM govenors in them to protect from over reving.. Lugging the engine can cause that kind of failure, not missing a shift, and even then you have to work at it.

 

 

nipper

 

FWIW there are 2 kinds of missed shifts.

 

#1 you physicall miss getting the car into any gear. Here the engine RPM limiter would in fact stop damage.

 

#2 You go to shift into 4th but miss and hit second while having been at the 6000rpm in third. Here there is no way to stop the motor from reaching verry high RPMs.

 

I think they were claiming #2. Problem was that he was driving the car on the PA turnpike with the cruise control set.

 

Keith

[nipper]

FWIW there are 2 kinds of missed shifts.

 

#1 you physicall miss getting the car into any gear. Here the engine RPM limiter would in fact stop damage.

 

#2 You go to shift into 4th but miss and hit second while having been at the 6000rpm in third. Here there is no way to stop the motor from reaching verry high RPMs.

 

I think they were claiming #2. Problem was that he was driving the car on the PA turnpike with the cruise control set.

 

Keith

Factory cruise control shuts off when the clutch is depresed, so unless he was powershifitng, i dont beleive that. But true i forgot about mis-shifitng, but even that is usually 1-3-5 or 2-4, so i still dont buy it, but always a chance of a blond moment. Even with that you get valve float and shouldnt be an issue since your not holding it there. A driver would notice the mistake fairly quickly and hopefully do something to fix it .... or am i giving people too much credit.

 

nipper

[Lawsonmh15]

i never implicated you or your dealer, i'm glad you're comfortable there. i'm just a hobbiest, but no need to tear me down. i'm an aerospace engineer at NASA, i've had plenty of classes relating to stress, fatigue, failure, materials, engineering, casting, foundry, isotopes, alloys, etc. and i've happened to pull apart lots of motors that have overheated and not overheated.

 

Gary's smart.

So is Subie Gal.

I don't think either of you are wrong. Both have different experiences.

 

Gary, do you know Sam Satterthwaite?

[idosubaru]

Gary's smart.

So is Subie Gal.

I don't think either of you are wrong. Both have different experiences.

 

Gary, do you know Sam Satterthwaite?

 

agreed, i'm not interested in experience anyway, he's been lied to or misinformed.

i don't know sam but if i did i might pat him on the back for a heck of a last name!

 

HEY - where is this dude! i think he traded it in already!

[dickens]

I'm sorry for not getting back quickly --- I appreciate all of the GREAT information you all are relating. What an awesome group. I'm afraid it's been a heck of a day --when my four-year-old goes to bed I'll respond intelligently.

Happy New Year to you and thanks again.

Ms. Dickens...

 

did you see the crack yourself? i'm curious where they crack. this would be good information to know so those of us that frequently work on motors know where to look. it certainly can happen. it is very unlikely and would require extended driving while overheating or horrific luck.

 

my biggest beef with these idiots is that they a$$ume catastrophe even though it'$ not likely without explaining anything. they $hould explain the $ituation and let the cu$tomer decide. i would totally understand if they highly suggested replacing the motor because they don't know and they won't take the risk or tell the customer X amount of dollars to pull the heads and check it. but they are absolutely lying by saying "it's a cracked block", i would trust them no further. if i can't trust them there i trust them no further.

 

has this guy even returned to and read this thread yet? ha ha!

[dickens]

I guess I'll have to discuss the unplugged rad fans withe the collision company. Curious how long it takes on H to cause HG issue. Does it just need to go to high for a few minutes? Because as soon as it went to high I pulled over and shut off the car...

Thanks again for your input.

Ms. Dickens...

 

1 - i doubt the dealership was wrong. i bet they were spot on

 

2 - whomever repaired your car did not plug the rad. fans back in.

it has been known to happen

 

3 - the car only needs to overheat one time to destroy head gaskets or yes, possibly injure the shortblock itself.

 

Jamie

[nipper]

It not unusal for one really good overheating to blow a head gasket on an aluminum engine. if it went right up to H thats pretty hot.

 

 

nipper

[dickens]

Hey there:

It's ms. dickens, the one who started all of this. Sorry again for not responding, sent a message earlier apologizing...new to usergroups so I am completely oblivious to proper etiquette. I now understand that walking away from the computer after firing off a question is a bad thing because it wastes all your time. mea culpa.

 

I will ask my husband to try the things you suggest. He noticed yesterday that the leak spots on our driveway seem to look more like coolant than oil, so we're now wondering if the car was leaking coolant prior to the PO483 light came on (and after it came back from the collison shop, where it got a new right front bumper, hood, axle work [i believe, can't find invoice], headlights. I was actually surprised the insurance company didn't total the car). Anyway, if collison shop failed to reattach the fans, could there have been damage to the engine or HGs w/o the temp gauge indicating overheating until my roadtrip up Cajon pass? (The car never overheated until the roadtrip, which was about 2 weeks after I got car back from collision shop. Before then it seemed to run fine, other than the "oil" leak we noticed on our driveway). By the way, prior to going up that pass we were stuck in stop and go holiday freeway traffic for about an hour because of an accident, and I did notice the temp gauge going up slightly, but not very much. As soon as traffic started again we were on the major uphill for miles.

 

And the dealership didn't say how they tested the engine to determine the crack, I"ll have to ask. I've got lots of questions for them now, thanks...

 

And again, thanks for your input and I apologize for not responding earlier.

 

 

you likely do NOT need a new motor...hold tight while i babble on.....

 

here's what i would check immediately, or someone here can answer. unplug the connector yourself (it's really easy to get to, takes about 42 seconds). look at the fans and look at the one plug on the fan. unplug it and see if your CE light comes on with the car running. do this as a test to make sure that a disconnected fan will throw a code and CE light. on all older subaru's the CE light will not come on with the fans unplugged, maybe the newer ones are different, but i would check to be sure myself or ask someone on here, they probably know. while you're doing this you can check what nipper said and see if the clips are still on the connector.

 

i would also fill it up with pure antifreeze and drive it around a bit - don't let it overheat, but get it up to normal temperature and look for signs of antifreeze leaking under the car, in the engine bay or out the exhaust pipe and let us know what you find.

 

did the car overheat at all before the CE light came on the first time? what came first the CE light or the overheating or did you never see the temp gauge before the CE light came on?

 

subaru is not liable. even if they diagnosed it *wrong*, there is no way to prove anything, so i'd abandon trying to prove them wrong. most likely the body shop or broken tab like nipper said. in the winter it won't overheat unless the car sits at idle (no air flowing over the radiator and no fans to pull air through) or you load it up a hill or towing, etc like nipper said. did you ever idle for an extended period before the CE light and overheating episodes. if you let the car idle before (say 10 minutes or so) and it never overheated then the connector was plugged in at one time...or better yet do you ever remember hearing the fans run, they are audible when they kick on if you have the windows down or are outside of the car. ask anyone who rides with you frequently if they recall, they'd be likely to hear it as yo'ure in it while it's on most of the time.

 

this stealership is also completely and utterly full of crap if they told you a hairline crack in the motor, i would walk away and deal with someone else if that's really what they said. there is no way they could even prove a hairline crack without disassembling the motor and checking the failure point.

if you're misquoting their diagnosis i take back my harsh statements, otherwise leave now. overheating *normally* blows a head gasket, that's a very common occurence. the XT6 i just got out of a few minutes ago had blown headgaskets. i knew the previous owner, his sister drove the car while it was overheating and blew the headgaskets. i got the car from him, replaced the head gaskets and the motor runs great, had it for about 25,000 miles and 3 years now. my friends headgasket blew on his neon - replaced gasket and it ran great. my parents van overheated and blew a head gasket...same deal, another guys subaru XT overheated and blew a head gasket and i replaced it for him, ran great. i think you see a pattern, i have yet to see an overheat do anything but require a new headgasket. i just ordered 2 today for an XT Turbo that i overheated and had blown head gaskets - $44 for the set, i'll install them this week and the car will run just fine.

 

you most likley just need new head gaskets. head gasket jobs are posted about all the time on this site and they run about $1,000 - $1,200 at a dealer. did they do a compression test? a leak down test? did they give you any details or just look at it and say "hairline crack", because that's impossible to diagnose in practice. i'd replace the head gaskets (have someone like me who won't BS you about your motor, not that dealer). if you do'nt like that idea, have someone do a compression test and/or leak down test for you and give me the numbers and i'll tell you what i think.

[dickens]

Curious, how long was "too long"?

Ms. Dickens

 

my 99 Legacy GT not only had bad headgaskets

 

but a cracked block which needed to be replaced

 

i was uneducated at that time, and drove the car too long overheating

 

my own fault, but it was covered under warranty so I got lucky.

 

it does happen, has been known to happen, and will probably happen again

 

Jamie

[Subie Gal]

Curious, how long was "too long"?

Ms. Dickens

 

it only takes one hill... one time... one run down the road.

 

these blocks are aluminum, not cast iron

 

they can crack EASILY when overheated.

 

shut down IMMEDIATELY if overheating.

 

Jamie

[idosubaru]

new to usergroups so I am completely oblivious to proper etiquette. I now understand that walking away from the computer after firing off a question is a bad thing because it wastes all your time. mea culpa.

 

no need to appologize, sometimes new threads are started and the poster never returns yet the discussions continue. sometimes threads dont' get instant or many posts either, you just happen to be fortunate...depending how you look at it.

[idosubaru]

Curious, how long was "too long"?

Ms. Dickens

 

Ms. Dickens, your best bet may be to do some research (won't take long). though i know you're new to the forum, it may help to search the Forum for "headgasket" and "cracked block" and see how many responses you can come up with.

 

or start a new thread asking for anyone that has ever personally seen a cracked block due to overheating.