a97obw Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Received a "new" water pump from Subaru dealer. It is in a Subaru box with a Subaru part number sticker, but not in a plastic bag. What strikes me is that it has a gold colored metal crummy looking impeller and NOT the cast impeller I have always seen. Along with the impeller, there are several black magic marker marks where it looks like somebody did a Quality Control check or the sorts on the pump. The last "new" one I bought was sealed in a bag inside the Subaru box and had the cast impeller. If it wasn't such a critical and major component to replace I wouldn't worry about it. Has anybody else seen this variation on the "new" water pumps from Subaru? Oh---97 Legacy Outback 2.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortlid Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Received a "new" water pump from Subaru dealer. It is in a Subaru box with a Subaru part number sticker, but not in a plastic bag. What strikes me is that it has a gold colored metal crummy looking impeller and NOT the cast impeller I have always seen. Along with the impeller, there are several black magic marker marks where it looks like somebody did a Quality Control check or the sorts on the pump. The last "new" one I bought was sealed in a bag inside the Subaru box and had the cast impeller. If it wasn't such a critical and major component to replace I wouldn't worry about it. Has anybody else seen this variation on the "new" water pumps from Subaru? Oh---97 Legacy Outback 2.5 Could have been "GM'ed"! My SAAB parts are geting that way as well. Lets hope for some "Toyotaing" of our parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 ask them to grab a few off the shelf and compare them? i haven't done enough or taken notice of the few that i've done to be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrian Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Is it a stamped, rather than cast, impeller? If so, I would return it without hesitation. You can get a stamped impellered new water pump in the aftermarket for maybe $40 - which may be what Subaru are doing. Or, even better, I'll bet NAPA has a pump with a cast Al impeller for about what you'd pay at the dealer. Don't pay full price for parts where the manufacturer has cut corners. Perhaps SubieGal or someone else with dealership parts experience can shed some light on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinsUBARU Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 I was reading the book "On the Line at Subaru-Isuzu: The Japanese Model and the American Worker" and learned an interesting fact of which I will tell to the best of my memory.... The assembly of water pumps is done by new trainees to see if they are able to complete work at a high standard of quality. I'm sure there is more to it, but what I said is a fact! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a97obw Posted February 7, 2006 Author Share Posted February 7, 2006 Well, I went to my local dealer this morning and water pump PN 21111AA007 should be correct; it is the one that is made in Japan and appears to be a factory Subaru part. The mail order one should be correct also being PN 21111AA110; it is made in USA according to the box. Differences: the obvious is the impeller. One is cast aluminum (the Japanese one) and the other is stamped steel (the US version). Other differences are the US model has a slightly wider (by about 2mm) drive pulley---not the diameter of the pulley but rather the surface that the timing belt runs upon, and the US model has a cast heater connection versus the press fit of the Japanese one. Typically, I've use the Japanese type in the past on my 92 Legacy wagon with the EJ22 engine. Strange enough, the one that I just removed from my 97 2.5 Outback wagon that I am going to replace was the type with the steel impeller. So either the factory fitted the steel impeller version, or it was changed prior to 38k miles when I bought it in the fall of 01. So of course I run it past my 86 year old Dad, the civil structural PE. His take is the one with the steel impeller would be the more efficient of the two pumps and recommends using that one. He's also got a good story with regard to reusing head bolts, but thats for another thread! Here is a picture of the lineup. Comments from users and vendors on this issue more than welcome! Whats more interesting is the casting of "YMA" on the US water pump. A google of "YMA water pump" suggests Yamaha Motors of Australia......so my Outback really does have a part of the Outback?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 very interesting. i'm not saying either is poor quality, but a water pump on an interference engine is definitley something to pay attention to, good catch man! so the one in your 97 outback is the picture on the right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a97obw Posted February 7, 2006 Author Share Posted February 7, 2006 I was reading the book "On the Line at Subaru-Isuzu: The Japanese Model and the American Worker" and learned an interesting fact of which I will tell to the best of my memory.... The assembly of water pumps is done by new trainees to see if they are able to complete work at a high standard of quality. I'm sure there is more to it, but what I said is a fact! I've fallen, and I CAN'T GET UP!! Dude, are you serious?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinsUBARU Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Dead serious!!! Do you need help getting up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a97obw Posted February 8, 2006 Author Share Posted February 8, 2006 Naaahhhh, it couldn't be. Not an initial "bubble maker" to create the dreaded failed head gasket "bubble maker"........or could it?? http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3102/is_4_123/ai_n6036765 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferret Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Just a note....the Original 97 Parts listed the 010 (last 3 digits) water pump as the 'high velocity' pump for the 2.5L DOHC. The 007 was the standard pump on the 2.2L. (so your pop knows his stuff !) They are interchangable and both can bolt on. I have seen the std (007) pump on both 2.5L DOHC and SOHC. The Subaru parts still calls for the 010 on the DOHC. As time went on, aftermarket vendors used 1 pump to supply both needs. Some dealers do this also, but there are those who will not sell you an 007 pump for a DOHC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortlid Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Read it front to back one of the BEST auto articles I have ever read!! Thanks ferret! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hohieu Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Very interesting article, according to which, a high efficiency pump (stamped impeller) is counterproductive and only increases cavitation. Could this be the main culprit for headgasket failure in 2.5 DOHC engines? Should we avoid the stamped steel impeller at all costs? Naaahhhh, it couldn't be. Not an initial "bubble maker" to create the dreaded failed head gasket "bubble maker"........or could it?? http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3102/is_4_123/ai_n6036765 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 look at the cylinder wall support on a non turbo 2.5. Now tell me its not a wonder they ever work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 I like this thread. Nice pictures! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a97obw Posted February 8, 2006 Author Share Posted February 8, 2006 I'll take a look at the "high velocity" water pump that I removed from my engine for signs of cavitation, but I don't think I'll find any. According to Pops, it should appear as pits or pock marks. He's seen them back in '44-'46 as a Lt. Commander on a floating dry dock off of Tinian. Said they were 1/2" to 1" diameter and about the same amount deep......in the propeller blades of submarines. That calls for a replacement propeller. Anybody know why? (ok--thats trivia!) Late last night I was once again looking over the head gasket tutorial by "theotherskip" and I noticed both in the pictures and the parts list that he used the cast impeller "007" version of the water pump in his repair of the 2.5 engine. I signed his guest book as yet another with the failed head gasket syndrome and read through a few of the horror stories there. Motivational it aint! It would really be interesting if, with significant data, it could be shown that the "high velocity" water pump was the root of all (ok, some) evil in the 2.5 engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendly_jacek Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 I dont see how cavitation would produce HG problems short of eating away chunks of aluminium adjacent to the gaskets itself. That has not been reported to my knowledge. While the subaru powered airplane experiments documented that the air bubles can overheat the engine and warp the heads, the bubles in cavitation are made of water vapor only, last only miliseconds and the only harm is the shock wave from the implosions (hence erosions). Sorry to burst your bubble so to speak... Edit: I was intrigued enough to look more into this. According to my sources, 007 pump is an older design for 1989-1997 cars and the 110 pump (not 010) is the newer design for 1997-now. Unfortunately, there is confusion on this on some sites. Adding to the pump quality issue, there was a recall on the 110 pump in 2002: http://test127.subarunet.com/business/service/Service_Publications/PDF_Files/WWJ-93.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleinkid Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Pitting like that on a sub prop will cause noise in the water and make the sub easier to find with sonar by the enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferret Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Friendly Jack, you are correct, I didn't notice the 010 I wrote. The correct pump does end in 110. As I stated, in the past few years, these have been used interchangeably on 2.2L and 2.5L. I haven't seen and problems with either. And I do not believe, this leads to a bad head gasket. The Head Gasket problem, IMO, was just the design and materials available when the engine was produced. As I stated in another thread, I've done more other Mfgr's than Subaru's, so this is a shortcoming of aluminum heads and other engine parts dealing with different expansion rates. Fords, GM's, Mopars, Honda's the list goes on. And each group of owners think their vehicles are the only Mfgr failing. Also that recall was for US production 2.5L and ONLY for the factory installed pump. I don't remember seeing a stock action for shelf parts. Also Note, Subaru allowed dealers a total of 2.1 hrs for pump replacement, including reusing the original timing belt. Here's the question to ask your dealer, then why after a list price of under $200 for a water pump and belt, do you charge so much for 2.1 hrs labor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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