I need an opinion on an opinion

[damien]

Below is some of the advice that I've been given about purchasing a 135k mile 1998 Legacy GT with 47k miles on a replacement engine. It's a pretty discouraging evaluation. What do you people think?

 

The advice:

"Severe head gasket problems are ’96-’99.5. This is why he has a new engine. Technically called a Phase I 2.5 DOHC, this is by far the very worst engine that Subaru has ever built.

 

These engines destroy themselves when the head gasket leaks. 47k on a replacement engine, means you have ~40k to go until you will have to replace the engine again. If you’re lucky. Because everyone who owns these ’96-’99.5 Subaru’s will need a used engine before 100k, the demand for good low mileage engines is through the roof, which makes them very expensive ($2500+).

 

If you are getting a Subaru it needs to be a ’00 or above (Phase II 2.5 SOHC). Some ’99’s had the new engine, but you will have to confirm it on a case by case basis. Ironically you can buy these late model engines with very low (10k) mileage for ~$1500 because they don’t break, so no one wants them."

[friendly_jacek]

Well, its mostly correct.

But not every gasket fails before 100,000. There is no simple rule.

I would also have issues with the following sentence as if you watch the engine closely, you can prevent engine meltdown:

"These engines destroy themselves when the head gasket leaks."

 

[firstwagon]

I'd put it down as true but exaggerated by an angry owner. I don't agree with the statement that a leaky head gasket will destroy an engine though. It will only damage the engine if left uncorrected. If you repair it right away, there will be no signifcant damage.

I had a head gasket go on my 88 Ram 50 turning the oil to milk. It took my about 3 hours to change it and flush out all the old oil. Cost about $50.00 in parts and oil.

I then drove that truck for another 200,000 km.

[Dickensheets]

this is one of those horrible engines. Except this one has 110,000 miles with no probs. I learned digital photos today!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Subarian]

SOME phase I 2.5l engines have head gasket problems, not all. If the previous owner was smart, he replaced the phase I with a phase 2. It sounds to me like someone has an axe to grind.

[OB99W]

I had a head gasket go on my 88 Ram 50 turning the oil to milk. It took my about 3 hours to change it and flush out all the old oil. Cost about $50.00 in parts and oil.

I hope you aren't suggesting that a Subaru engine could be repaired as readily or inexpensively as the Dodge. It's a lot easier to deal with an inline 4 than a horizontally-opposed one that's in a tight engine compartment. Even if one were to do the work themselves, the parts for Subaru that would likely be needed would probably run hundreds of dollars. Typical price for HG work by a mechanic seems to average around $1500 (independents possibly closer to $1000, some dealer shops nearer $2000). That may not mean that someone shouldn't consider a used Subaru from the "problem" years, but let's not sugarcoat the situation either.

 

By the way, Damien, a Phase 2 SOHC engine doesn't guarantee that the HGs won't give you grief. True, the earlier ones (Phase 1 DOHC) have been known to develop internal leaks. However, some of the '00 and later models (Phase 2 SOHC) have had HGs that leak externally, so Phase 1 DOHC versus Phase 2 SOHC isn't the dividing line between trouble and care-free.

[damien]

Thanks for the responses guys! Much appreciated!

 

[firstwagon]

I hope you aren't suggesting that a Subaru engine could be repaired as readily or inexpensively as the Dodge. It's a lot easier to deal with an inline 4 than a horizontally-opposed one that's in a tight engine compartment. Even if one were to do the work themselves, the parts for Subaru that would likely be needed would probably run hundreds of dollars. Typical price for HG work by a mechanic seems to average around $1500 (independents possibly closer to $1000, some dealer shops nearer $2000). That may not mean that someone shouldn't consider a used Subaru from the "problem" years, but let's not sugarcoat the situation either.

 

.

 

Actually the Dodge Ram 50 is not a Dodge, it's a Mitsubishi. I found the parts for it were more expensive then Subaru because at that time Mitsu was not sold in Canada and I had to buy everything through dodge. The Ram 50 does have more space to work on but is still an OHC engine so the difficultly is simular.

 

As for the cost, it's almost all labour. What parts do you need aside from the head gasket itself? (and oil)

 

Oh yeah... one intake manifold gasket, exhaust manifold gasket and valve cover gasket. Still I don't remember it costing more then $50.00 and that was OEM gaskets.

[OB99W]

As for the cost, it's almost all labour. What parts do you need aside from the head gasket itself? (and oil)

I usually find that when doing a head gasket job, more than just the HGs are needed to ensure things are sealed when it's all back together. A complete OEM gasket set is closer to $250, and there usually are incidentals. But my curiosity is aroused; what's the least in parts anyone here has used to successfully complete the HG job?

[idosubaru]

pre-2000 2.5 liter engines are more of a risk than any other subaru motor. that doesn't mean anything happens at any time. it could last a week...the person might be selling it because it's already starting to show symptoms (which do not show themselves with normal testing), or it could never give you issues. the "new" headgasket design fixes the problem, so if a head gasket is replaced or the motor is newer than 2000 then you're golden.

[zyewdall]

Actually the Dodge Ram 50 is not a Dodge, it's a Mitsubishi. I found the parts for it were more expensive then Subaru because at that time Mitsu was not sold in Canada and I had to buy everything through dodge. The Ram 50 does have more space to work on but is still an OHC engine so the difficultly is simular.

 

How did you get an '88 Ram 50? Here in the US, they switched to the dakota in '86 (big mistake IMO). I've got a '84 with the diesel and both the dodge dealer and the mitsubishi dealer deny any knowledge of my truck. On line is the only good source of parts.

 

On the head gasket issue, if the gas engine in the Ram 50 is anything like the diesel, it looks MUCH easier to do the work than on a boxer engine. And remember, a boxer also has TWO head gaskets, not just one. But still, it's not that big of a deal. Took me a week of evenings and a weekend to do the ones on my old subaru, and about $300 for a complete gasket set.

[cookie]

Having done a number of head gasket jobs on Japanese pickups my opinion is much like that of the other folks here. I was trying to think what might compare and I can't think of a good match, but the boxer is much tougher.

I also think that while the phase 1 2.5 is not Subaru's proudest moment, a set of head gaskets as soon as they leak will have that engine a reliable beast for at least as long as the rings last.

[firstwagon]

How did you get an '88 Ram 50? Here in the US, they switched to the dakota in '86 (big mistake IMO). I've got a '84 with the diesel and both the dodge dealer and the mitsubishi dealer deny any knowledge of my truck. On line is the only good source of parts.

 

On the head gasket issue, if the gas engine in the Ram 50 is anything like the diesel, it looks MUCH easier to do the work than on a boxer engine. And remember, a boxer also has TWO head gaskets, not just one. But still, it's not that big of a deal. Took me a week of evenings and a weekend to do the ones on my old subaru, and about $300 for a complete gasket set.

 

They came out with a updated body style for the Mitsu ram in 87 and continued it through the early 90's. They got real hard to find though. Even in the late 90's it got to be difficult to find parts and Dodge really reamed us on price. I needed a rad once and was told it would $600. The idiot behind the counter then took great delight in telling me I should have bought a Dakota because the rad would only be $150.

 

Aside from the one time with the head gasket and a cracked head late in the life of the truck, I really liked that little truck. It was a black Extra-Cab and I drove the crap out of it for over a decade.

 

 

Back on topic, the 2.5 must be a lot tighter then the 2.2. I was looking at mine last night and see nothing partically difficult about removeing a head. There are 2 to do but they look so small and light.

[cookie]

Actually they are tighter. The phase one DOHC looks like you'll never get it out, but I have it on good authority that you can.

[zyewdall]

The one I did it on was an EA82 -- which I think is a little tighter than an EJ22, but I've never really looked at an EJ25, so I don't know.

[damien]

Thanks again for the responses guys (and gals if there are any).

 

My next questions are these:

 

What is the lifetime of replaced headgaskets? (I'm also considering a 98 outback wagon with 150k miles and replaced headgaskets with 20k miles on them)

 

Are there any other engine problems that I need to worry about aside from the headgaskets? Even with replaced headgaskets I feel like a car with 150k miles on it can't have that many more miles left in it.

 

Also, what do you guys think of a clean, well maintained 150k mile 98 outback with replaced HGs and a replaced transmission for 5300? I feel a bit uneasy about paying 5300 dollars for a car with so many miles. What do you think?

 

[zyewdall]

The new head gaskets are supposed to fix the problem the originals had, and not fail again (unless you overheat it or do the things that normally blow head gaskets of course).

 

I don't consider a subaru with 150k miles to be that high of mileage yet. Especially if the head gaskets and transmission were just replaced. Assuming all the other maintenance records look good. Sounds like what would be a decent going price around here. Only question is why was the transmission replaced?

[cookie]

The two items I would consider most expensive and most likely to go are done. If the valves are adjusted, new timing blet and water pump this should be a runner. It all depends on condition though.

[dxrflyboy]

pre-2000 2.5 liter engines are more of a risk than any other subaru motor. that doesn't mean anything happens at any time. it could last a week...the person might be selling it because it's already starting to show symptoms (which do not show themselves with normal testing), or it could never give you issues. the "new" headgasket design fixes the problem, so if a head gasket is replaced or the motor is newer than 2000 then you're golden.

Allow me to qualify your statement about the riskiness of Phase I 2.5s by adding the word "modern" to "any other Subaru motor". The 1400s of the 1970s were also notorious for chewing up head gaskets, but Subaru didn't sell nearly as many of them (at least not here in North America) as EJ25s. My father had ongoing head gasket problems with his '76 before the engine was replaced. I will also add that although you can replace head gaskets in the car, it doesn't make sense to do so, due to the ease of engine removal and installation. Also, Phase I EJ25s have the plastic cover in the flywheel area, that tends to leak oil. If you blow a head gasket, it makes sense to remove the engine and fix this problem at the same time.