Wayne Boncyk Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Being the lazy $#!& that I am, and not wanting to mess around with trying to break free an exhaust assembly (I don't have an air impact hammer) that had been heat-welded in place with over 175K miles of use just to be able to get to the extension housing on my 4EAT, I decided back in 2004 to cure my torque bind problem with a simple addition of the FWD fuse. I read all the posts, both pro and con, about the issue here on this board, and I figured I'd risk it. Well, the risk paid off, I guess. It is now 2006 and I've been driving around all this time with just a 2WD Sube (but hey, I live in Southern California now and there have been only a very few times that I wished I'd still had the AWD). Finally, at 218K miles, the AT Temp lite flashes me the Solenoid C code, and I have torque bind once again. Guess now we all know how long a Solenoid C can last while constantly engaged! So, what do I do now? I actually have a replacement solenoid that I bought back in '04 and I guess I now have to do the work that I had been so long dreading, but I want your advice first. Since this is a '96, prone to valve seat corrosion and all the rest, should I just replace the entire extension housing/clutch pack assembly instead of trying a solenoid "band-aid?" Your thoughts are most welcome! Also, if you think that replacing the whole assembly is the best approach, where would you suggest I go to get one? Frankly I'm not happy with the parts prices quoted to me from the local Sube dealers here in SoCal. They appear to be consistently 75-100% higher than other Sube dealers who are willing to sell online to the public. But I have not been able to find an online source that has either "cluth pack" or "extension housing" parts in their online catalogs. Any suggestions? Thanks again for all your help -- this forum truly is the Ultimate for Sube info and advice! Wayne B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Maybe it's my navigational skills or lack of car parts knowledge, but I have difficulties with the online catalogs. So I just call 1stsubaruparts' tollfree number. The fellow at the counter--I think it was Jason--is super pleasant and helpful. Maybe he can help you track it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 i bought a 97 obw with the duty c failed. i also had a bad 97 trans which did not have torque bind when it went bad. i used the clutch pack off of the bad trans in a straight swap. i examined the valve seat of the failed duty c unit. the clogged up valve seat is a small area, there appaers to be a pin hole in the bottom of the seat that is maybe 1/8" by 3/16 or 1/4, oblong. if i had a parts washer, a n air hose and confidence that i would not damage the clutch in the process, i mght try cleaning it and reusing it. the problem is that you don't know what you get when you buy used. but you can remove the duty c of the used clutch pack and examine the valve seat to increase your chances. mine had what looked like dark brown sediment in the bottom. by all means, install the new duty c. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted March 14, 2006 Author Share Posted March 14, 2006 Thanks, John! Given the postings in your latest thread (which I replied to) you buy a lot of used Subes!! If you happen to have a spare '97 or newer clutch pack (undamaged) that you're willing to sell cheap (I'd like to avoid the port clogging issue by replacing what I have with the newer design) then I'd be interested! Wayne B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 i do have the cluthc pack out of the 97obw with bad duty c and dirty valve seat. actually i don't know if the thing had torque bind caused by the clogged valve seat. i know the duty c was bad, never drove it when it was good. if you are interested let me know. you might check on when they made the change over. i seem to remember it happening mid-year 96 (97 model). john Thanks, John! Given the postings in your latest thread (which I replied to) you buy a lot of used Subes!! If you happen to have a spare '97 or newer clutch pack (undamaged) that you're willing to sell cheap (I'd like to avoid the port clogging issue by replacing what I have with the newer design) then I'd be interested! Wayne B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted March 14, 2006 Author Share Posted March 14, 2006 John, Yes I'd potentially be interested -- depending on how much you'd want for it and how much I could get a new/rebuilt unit for. Send me a private msg with your asking price. For the rest of you guys, that means I'm still wondering where I should go for a price quote for new/rebuilt units. I'll give 1st Subaru a try, but I believe that it always pays to shop around so if you've had good luck with prices at other parts suppliers, please let me know. Thanks Again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Being the lazy $#!& that I am, and not wanting to mess around with trying to break free an exhaust assembly (I don't have an air impact hammer) that had been heat-welded in place with over 175K miles of use just to be able to get to the extension housing on my 4EAT, I decided back in 2004 to cure my torque bind problem with a simple addition of the FWD fuse. I read all the posts, both pro and con, about the issue here on this board, and I figured I'd risk it. Well, the risk paid off, I guess. It is now 2006 and I've been driving around all this time with just a 2WD Sube (but hey, I live in Southern California now and there have been only a very few times that I wished I'd still had the AWD). Finally, at 218K miles, the AT Temp lite flashes me the Solenoid C code, and I have torque bind once again. Guess now we all know how long a Solenoid C can last while constantly engaged! So, what do I do now? I actually have a replacement solenoid that I bought back in '04 and I guess I now have to do the work that I had been so long dreading, but I want your advice first. Since this is a '96, prone to valve seat corrosion and all the rest, should I just replace the entire extension housing/clutch pack assembly instead of trying a solenoid "band-aid?" Your thoughts are most welcome! Also, if you think that replacing the whole assembly is the best approach, where would you suggest I go to get one? Frankly I'm not happy with the parts prices quoted to me from the local Sube dealers here in SoCal. They appear to be consistently 75-100% higher than other Sube dealers who are willing to sell online to the public. But I have not been able to find an online source that has either "cluth pack" or "extension housing" parts in their online catalogs. Any suggestions? Thanks again for all your help -- this forum truly is the Ultimate for Sube info and advice! Wayne B. The initial torque buind probably could have been fixed with a tranny flush. Oh Well The seat issue was fixed in 1997 1/2 and all the replacement parts have the fix. This is something that wont be in the typical online parts catalog. You need to call a parts department. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 Sorry to disappoint you, nipper, but the first thing I did (after I reconfirmed that all 4 tires were same circumference) was flush the tranny, and refill with synthetic AT fluid. Cleared the torque bind problem for about 2K miles, then it was back. That wasn't the first fluid change I'd done on the tranny, but it was the first true flush and refill with synthetic fluid, BTW. I suspect that the flush and new fluid broke free some gunk that had built up in the valve seat, but more gunk took its place in short order. Then the solenoid stuck in the closed position, and although I was able to pull it free with constant current supplied by the FWD fuse for a LONG time, eventually the solenoid stuck in the closed position for good. Still, I'm OK with the way things are turning out. John's gonna sell me his "spare" clutch pack assembly, which will give me one with a clean set of clutch plates and only a little gunk built up on the port valve seat. Should be better shape than my original, and his price is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 just out of curiosity, what does a duty c solenoid cost? Sorry to disappoint you, nipper, but the first thing I did (after I reconfirmed that all 4 tires were same circumference) was flush the tranny, and refill with synthetic AT fluid. Cleared the torque bind problem for about 2K miles, then it was back. That wasn't the first fluid change I'd done on the tranny, but it was the first true flush and refill with synthetic fluid, BTW. I suspect that the flush and new fluid broke free some gunk that had built up in the valve seat, but more gunk took its place in short order. Then the solenoid stuck in the closed position, and although I was able to pull it free with constant current supplied by the FWD fuse for a LONG time, eventually the solenoid stuck in the closed position for good. Still, I'm OK with the way things are turning out. John's gonna sell me his "spare" clutch pack assembly, which will give me one with a clean set of clutch plates and only a little gunk built up on the port valve seat. Should be better shape than my original, and his price is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 Well, back in 2004 I picked one up along with a replacement housing gasket for around $50, new, from one of the online Sube parts houses. I believe I got it from Courtesy Subaru in South Dakota, and I can dig up the receipt if you need more exact info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Sorry to disappoint you, nipper, but the first thing I did (after I reconfirmed that all 4 tires were same circumference) was flush the tranny, and refill with synthetic AT fluid. Cleared the torque bind problem for about 2K miles, then it was back. That wasn't the first fluid change I'd done on the tranny, but it was the first true flush and refill with synthetic fluid, BTW. Synthetic transmission fluid and manual tranny fluid is BAD. The transmissions in both cases need friction to operate. There is no reduction in pumping losses in transmissions with synthetic oils like there is crankases. Wet clutches in automtic transmissions and gear synchros in manuals need drag and friction to operate. i still say a flush with the recomnded tranny oil had a 90% shot of fixing the problem. In transmissions friction and drag are good things, in an engine its a bad thing. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 I'm not intending to start a flame war here, but I do respectfully disagree with your conclusion. Part of what you said is exactly correct -- ATs and engines use "oil" for different things, and what is good for engines (ultra-slipperiness) is not what is healthy in trannys. However, what you want in ATs are consistent viscosity and friction characteristics, even after hours of punishing, high heat operation. According to my buddy, who is a chemical engineer and who spent many years doing development research with a major oil company (and they sell "refined" AT fluid as well as synthetics, so he does know the difference), the synthetic AT fluids now available will keep their characteristics far longer than refined mineral oils because they don't have the odd long-chain hydrocarbons left over from the refining process that tend to link together and "gum up" when exposed to heat and oxygen. I figured I had the best shot at diluting the existing "gum" when I put synthetic in my tranny, because it wasn't going to contribute anything that would add to the original problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 I'm not intending to start a flame war here, but I do respectfully disagree with your conclusion. Part of what you said is exactly correct -- ATs and engines use "oil" for different things, and what is good for engines (ultra-slipperiness) is not what is healthy in trannys. However, what you want in ATs are consistent viscosity and friction characteristics, even after hours of punishing, high heat operation. According to my buddy, who is a chemical engineer and who spent many years doing development research with a major oil company (and they sell "refined" AT fluid as well as synthetics, so he does know the difference), the synthetic AT fluids now available will keep their characteristics far longer than refined mineral oils because they don't have the odd long-chain hydrocarbons left over from the refining process that tend to link together and "gum up" when exposed to heat and oxygen. I figured I had the best shot at diluting the existing "gum" when I put synthetic in my tranny, because it wasn't going to contribute anything that would add to the original problem. Just for the record im an Automotive engineer with a speciialization in the area of power transmission (drivetrains). My weakness is computers/emission controls, (but im good at multiple failure codes), Also the proof is in the pudding. Seems there are alot of subarus here with the original trannies, running on standard with hydraulic fluid, with no problems. When they do have torque bind 90% of the time a flushing with a regular trany fluid seems to fix the problem with no other action required. Also on an older tranny the last thing you want to do is to totally de-gum it, as that gum is helping to hold the paper clutches together. Now if this was a brand NEW transmission, or one with less then 30k in it, i would not have a problem with synthetic tranny fluid. and i still disagree. BTW having a diffence of opinion is NOT starting a flame war, its just a discussion nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted March 16, 2006 Author Share Posted March 16, 2006 Very true. As it has often been said, reasonable, intelligent people, after being presented with identical information, can draw totally different conclusions. So, since we're both reasonable and intelligent - I agree with you! But without further evidence to the contrary, although I admit that I see the logic in your argument (that old well-worn transmission clutches may be held together by "gum" as much as anything else), since mine hasn't fallen apart yet (after nearly 2 years on the synthetic), I still think I did the right thing! BTW - I'm enjoying this discussion. Still, being a scientist, I'd rather settle the matter with a controlled experiment. Unfortunately I don't have a statistically significant number of old Sube ATs (which would probably have to number in the dozens, at least) in order to do it right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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