Call me Rip van Winkle--What's best choice in early 90s wagon?

[79er]

I've kept a '79 wagon I bought new in good running order over the years, as well as a couple of '78 Brats for shorter periods, but the asthmatic 1.6 liter engine at 10,000 feet (living at 5,000 feet in Denver is already a heavy penalty on the little engine), no AC, and general aches and pains of a 26-year-old Subaru have me looking to acquire a newer member of the tribe. I've done some looking at various web sites and am feeling a bit like Rip van Winkle--I've been getting around in the old wagon for 20-some years, giving little attention or notice to what has happened in the Subaru world in the meantime. In terms of budget and condition, I had been considering a newer Subaru wagon (Legacy or Forester), say in the 1997-1999 model years. I've only been exploring a suitable replacement for the last month or so, and in reviews, user experiences etc I've come across, I'm coming to the conclusion that these were not good years for Subaru's previously vaunted reputation for reliability. Certainly, I would not be considering another Subaru if the '79 had any of the engine problems the 2.5 liter engine seems to have a reputation for.

 

So advice is needed--I've been searching in vain for someone or some site that could give an evenhanded overview of typical issues to be alert for in each model year and would appreciate if anyone here knows of such a compilation and could point me to it. Or, lacking that, with a budget of about $7,000, what would be a better choice--trying to locate a low mileage wagon from the 1990-1996 era with the 2.2 engine, or one of the later models and simply plan to replace the engine (I have a small advantage there--CCR's shop is only 8 miles from my driveway). What has been quite unclear to me on this engine head gasket/overheating/warping issue is why it occurs--is it likely to happen with every engine out there from this period, and if so, what does a head gasket replacement really remedy--from my naive perspective it seems a temporary fix for an unremedied engineering problem.

 

On the other hand, if finding a vehicle with the 2.2 liter engine is the best route, how do I differentiate which engine is under the hood--my understanding is that the 2.5 engines were available in some models as early as 1996 and the 2.2 continued to be available to 1998 or 1999 (but in relatively small numbers?)--is this correct?

 

Also, what other strong points/weak points for Legacy wagons though the 1990s should I be aware of when I begin the hunt. Many thanks for any advice offered that can help me sort out what to look for to replace my old 79 DL wagon.

 

Woody

[nipper]

Look for rust. Get a manual tranny. Subarus are simple cars and almost like giant leggos, everything interchanges. . Keep away from the air suspension. Electronic dashboards if available avoid. High mileage turbos , expect them to need some expensive repairs.

Thats all i can think of.

 

 

nipper

[subeman90]

There is a 99 legacy wagon here that would be absolutely perfect for you...the only problem is the 2000 miles between us. With that being said find a regular legacy (not an outback) with a stickshift (assuming that you want a stick) and you'll have the best (in my opinion) car that your money can buy. Legacy with a 2.2 and a 5 speed.

[Olnick]

Okay, I can't shut up any longer!

 

Rip, my man, since you seem to be open to options and are seeking honest input, I strongly second what subeman90 just suggested--Legacy 2.2 with 5 speed manual tranny. Any model year from the beginning ('89/'90) through '96. Be aware that with the '97 model the 2.2 was slightly re-designed and became an interference engine for its last few years of production.

 

Ah yes, the original "bulletproof" EJ 2.2--best engine Subaru ever created.

 

Good luck with your decision. Let us know whichever way you go!

[Jack in Norfolk]

Hey,

I am partial to the 1980s wagons so I am not much help here, but I did want to point your attention to the "Historic Subaru Forum". The guys in there are crazy about the old cars like you have and brats too. I'm sure they would love for you to drop in and post a few words and some pictures of your vehicles.

Thanks.

-Jack

[Gnuman]

Heya Rip! OK, as the extremely happy owner of a 92 Legacy Wagon (well two actually, but I got the second one for my ex-wife so she would have a reliable and safe car to cart our daughter around in), I can tell you that the 90-94 Legacies are great all-around capable cars. in 95 they redesigned the car and the newer version has a bit wider turning circle, and is bigger and sleeker on the outside. Inside, there were a few modifications made to placement of controls and instruments (almost a mirror of the original placement), but the interior room is almost identical to the 90-94. After about 99 (IIRC) they were all 2.5L engines. The Outback came with the larger engine (and 30 more horses), that had the infamous headgasket leak. This leak was due to a headgasket design that was not up to the task of sealing the heads. At least not for the expected lifespan of the engine. Because of this, the headgasket would fail, causing the compression from the engine to escape into the cooling jacket, pushing the coolant out of the overflow container, and causing a coolant vapourlock. this vapourlock would then cause the engine to overheat (often the first sign that the owner ould notice that something was wrong). The overheating would then warp the heads, making matters worse. The redesigned headgasket is much better and is in fact up to the job, thus resolving the problem for good (depending, of course, on the quality of the work performed in replacing the headgasket).

 

That being said, the 2.2L (EJ22) engine is in fact the best engine Subaru has ever produced. in 96, when the EJ25 was introduced, it became the downgrade engine as everyone was pushing the higher horsepower of the EJ25. in 97, all of Subaru's engines went to an impact type design, as the closer tolerances gave a few more horses, and a few more MPG, at the expence of some of the dependability (if you do not follow the maint schedules. No real loss otherwise).

 

If you opt for the early models (90-94), I recomend getting one that has lived all of it's life in salt-free areas of the country, to avoid rust. The 4EAT (automatic, 4 spd, computer controlled) transmission has a history of failure of the AWD clutchpack and Duty C solenoid that controlls it, up to about 98 or so. There are two reasons for this: one is mismatched tires, causing the AWD system to overwork itself, and fail. The other is failure to maintain the transmission fluid. It would overheat, burn, and leave deposits all over the place, or it would simply wear out, and start to burn under normal operation, with similar results. If you get an auto transmission Legacy, I recomend getting the transmission checked out and serviced. With a manual transmission, I have not heard of any problems other than those caused by mismatched tires (center diff failing). Stay away from the air suspension as it is prone to failure, and is hard to diagnose. Given a choice, I would opt for an LS or better model, as these offer the rear sway-bar that the L does not. for 89, 90, and 91, the 80W stereo (the most prevalent) offered an AUX input on the front that was missing from the later models. This input is only now making a comeback, and mostly in aftermarket units, due to the rise in MP3 players. The headligts were slightly improved in 92, as was the engine (the headlights had levels added to the top, and a scale on the side-to side adjustment making the adjustment easier. a better shape gives slightly better light from them. The engine got different injectors, and a consolidation of wiring connectors. There may be more than that, but that is what I have seen). Things to watch out for are AWD (make sure it has it), and the rear brakes (you will want disc brakes all around. Some models actually had drum brakes in the rear).

[Skip]

All good info, hope Woody posts a follow up.

 

My sugg may be the obvious

 

with CCR that close, pop over and talk with Emily, Shawn, and Rick

 

What better way to get info than the horse's mouth so to speak.

 

They know these cars better than anyone on the board IMHO

 

They also have a history of being very helpful.

[Dr. RX]

All good info, hope Woody posts a follow up.

 

My sugg may be the obvious

 

with CCR that close, pop over and talk with Emily, Shawn, and Rick

 

What better way to get info than the horse's mouth so to speak.

 

They know these cars better than anyone on the board IMHO

 

They also have a history of being very helpful.

Gee thanks Skippy. I have a 95 wagon, it has the newer body style, plus the bullet proof EJ22 in it. Unless you can get you hands on a JDM wagon with an EJ20G engine in it, that would be your best option, second choice would be any 90 - 94 wagon.

[Ranger83]

I replaced the head gaskets preemptively on my 1997 OBW at 140K miles. It now has 171K and is being driven nearly 500 miles per week.

 

You can buyt a mid 90's OBW with around 100K miles for $3500-5000 and do the headgaskets.

[Twowagons]

my .02 cents, keep the one you have and replace the motor, add a/c. Of course I am prejugdice to the Gen 1

[maximumBRAT]

in a 90-94 legacy you have to take out the front fenderwalls and scrape out the leaves and crap that accumulate from the cowl, otherwise they rust right behind the tire.. other wise they're pretty cool

 

 

that's all i got that hasn't been said.

[79er]

My goodness--I'm most gratified at the response to my question. Will have to get going on the serious looking. I was kicking around the thought of maybe finding a 97-99 era vehicle with a problem motor for cheap, but from my recollection of ads I've seen the last couple of months in the Rocky Mountain area, most folks are inclined to put in a used engine of some kind just to make the vehicle marketable. Going the route of a rebuilt 2.5 liter engine from CCR looks to be about a $4000 package if you include clutch, water pump and sales tax and other incidentals. For my budget that leaves about $2-3000 for the vehicle. So I think I'll focus on the '92-'94 model years. One question on brakes--someone mentioned rear drum brakes on some models--were drum brakes found on any Legacy L wagons in the '92-94 models? Will avoid those if I can. Regarding the LS option, were suspension parts essentially the same except for the rear anti-sway bar? I'd consider just finding the rear bar at a junkyard if that is the case. I'm thinking here of the variability in suspension parts in Detroit products over the years--usually sway bar diameters and sometimes spring rates varied with the suspension package and were matched components (eg Cameros and Firebirds), hence my question as to whether the front bar diameter is the same with or without the rear bar on all models, or is the LS bar package a different diameter (and stiffness) for the front compared to the standard L bar?

 

Some other questions on life of various parts--front axles and/or axle boot life--my experience with the '79 has been boots split open long before the CV joints go, especially the one above the exhaust (inboard, passenger side). Has Subaru made any improvements in this regard? Ball joints--how long do these typically last--can the OEM product be lubricated or is aftermarket a better choice for replacement? Shocks and struts--any thoughts on typical life. Should I just assume all these items should have been (or will need to be) dealt with by the 120,000 mile mark or can I expect longer service of any of these components? Engine--I'm assuming water pump, timing belt and alternator will most likely need replacement, correct? Just trying to work up a fix-it list to use in negotiating a price on whatever I settle on...

[nipper]

 

Some other questions on life of various parts--front axles and/or axle boot life--my experience with the '79 has been boots split open long before the CV joints go, especially the one above the exhaust (inboard, passenger side). Has Subaru made any improvements in this regard? Ball joints--how long do these typically last--can the OEM product be lubricated or is aftermarket a better choice for replacement? Shocks and struts--any thoughts on typical life. Should I just assume all these items should have been (or will need to be) dealt with by the 120,000 mile mark or can I expect longer service of any of these components? Engine--I'm assuming water pump, timing belt and alternator will most likely need replacement, correct? Just trying to work up a fix-it list to use in negotiating a price on whatever I settle on...

 

well my 97 OBW with 180K still has the original struts and axles. My 88 GL went oveer 200k on the original struts, and once i bought axles from sooby i never had a problem with them. FWD cars will blow boots on occasion. Axles arent all that expensive. Ball joints my 98 never needed them but did need tie rod ends. So far the 97 is doing well on those too.

It really depends on the cars life. My car has all highway miles on it.

WHen you do the timing belt, its the timing belt, cam seals, main seal, belt tensioner, water pump, and oil pump seals.

i am truly amazed at how the miles pile up on the car and it still rides good and steers straight.

 

nipper

[Gnuman]

My goodness--I'm most gratified at the response to my question. Will have to get going on the serious looking. I was kicking around the thought of maybe finding a 97-99 era vehicle with a problem motor for cheap, but from my recollection of ads I've seen the last couple of months in the Rocky Mountain area, most folks are inclined to put in a used engine of some kind just to make the vehicle marketable. Going the route of a rebuilt 2.5 liter engine from CCR looks to be about a $4000 package if you include clutch, water pump and sales tax and other incidentals. For my budget that leaves about $2-3000 for the vehicle. So I think I'll focus on the '92-'94 model years. One question on brakes--someone mentioned rear drum brakes on some models--were drum brakes found on any Legacy L wagons in the '92-94 models? Will avoid those if I can. Regarding the LS option, were suspension parts essentially the same except for the rear anti-sway bar? I'd consider just finding the rear bar at a junkyard if that is the case. I'm thinking here of the variability in suspension parts in Detroit products over the years--usually sway bar diameters and sometimes spring rates varied with the suspension package and were matched components (eg Cameros and Firebirds), hence my question as to whether the front bar diameter is the same with or without the rear bar on all models, or is the LS bar package a different diameter (and stiffness) for the front compared to the standard L bar?

 

Some other questions on life of various parts--front axles and/or axle boot life--my experience with the '79 has been boots split open long before the CV joints go, especially the one above the exhaust (inboard, passenger side). Has Subaru made any improvements in this regard? Ball joints--how long do these typically last--can the OEM product be lubricated or is aftermarket a better choice for replacement? Shocks and struts--any thoughts on typical life. Should I just assume all these items should have been (or will need to be) dealt with by the 120,000 mile mark or can I expect longer service of any of these components? Engine--I'm assuming water pump, timing belt and alternator will most likely need replacement, correct? Just trying to work up a fix-it list to use in negotiating a price on whatever I settle on...

 

I have seen drum brakes on a Legacy wagon, but it is a bit rare. I mentioned that it is something to watch for. The same with AWD. The LS package gives you several nicities, so I would go with that as a starting point. If it is an Auto tranny, insist on a test drive and see if the tranny drags or bucks at all on corners. The auto was much more prone to this (torque bind) than the manual. I would do the timing belt service just to be certain. Add refurbishing the oil pump to the list Nipper gave: new oil pump O-ring, and tighten the screws on the backing plate for the oil impeller, then reinstall with a thin coat/bead of RTV or better. the screws back out with time, and I have seen several of the O-rings installed badly, causing oil leaks. at 120K the engine is just getting broken in. The rear sway bar on the LS also requires getting the rear trailing arm and a few other bits as well. The front is unchanged, as far as I know.