2.2T Pinging. Timing @ ~150 ATDC ?????

[brice k]

:edit: Problem fixed see last post

 

93 Legacy 2.2 Turbo 5spd

 

I checked my timing with a timing light and found the ignition timing to be retarded about 150*

 

:what I did:

 

Connected a timing light to #1 wire.

Jumped the green connector under the dash

checked the timing. Looking at the crank pulley the timing mark looked to be at about 4 o-clock.

 

What did I do wrong?

 

The funny thing is that I tried the timing light clamp on all 4 plug wires and the timing mark on the crank didn't move at all.

 

Could this posibly indicate a faulty coil or igniter?

 

I have no cel codes

 

Stock turbo @ 7psi

Aftermarket fuel pump. PSI @ idle ~30 Goes up with boost.

checked injector signal/ground/resistance

Checked KS

re-clocked the TPS

replaced the ECT sender

swaped on another MAF.

I tried to check the MAf and TPS but I don't have an accurate enough DC volt meeter to properly check the output voltages.

 

I could check or swap out the CP1 and CP2 senders but if they were bad they would throw a CEL right?

 

I've been fighting with this detenation problem for months. It used to be pretty intermittent and as far as I could tell totally random, but now the pinging is there all the time if I go to more than 1/8 throttle.

 

I just removed my SMT6 piggyback controller.

 

Any help is appreaciated.

 

I already have a chiltons book, and have downloaded the Subaru manual pdf's.

[ShawnW]

You cant use a timing light on these engines it is all self adjusting (computer controlled). Plugging the green connectors together didnt accomplish anything either, that is the older Loyale/GL system that required that.

 

Are you sure its ping and not another noise?

What octane fuel are you running?

Is your car a high altitude car (altitude compensator equipped)?

Chiltons is probably leading you on wild goose chases, that manual is horrible. The haynes is a step up but not enough on a Turbo to be worth owning IMO.

 

Piggyback controller? I wasnt aware that they made one for the early legacy engine. Are you running some sort of custom MAP?

 

Get a brand new knock sensor. That messes with the timing more than anything on these engines. The wiring to it may be suspect as well, the heat the turbo engine puts out really cooks the wiring in that area of the engine compartment.

[nipper]

why did you connect the green connector. That is for diagnositcs purposes only.

Toming is affected by alot of things, and uness you jumped a tooth on the timing belt, there is nothing for you to adjust.

 

Pinging, (damn this should be a sticky) if the knock sensor is ok, your not throwing codes, and you cant shake it, you need to try a cooler heat range plug. The plug body is retaining too much heat, creating a hot spot, and causing pinging. Check your timing with the green plug unpluged, as that wil give you all sorts of weird readings. Timing should be checked as the car would be run. you never drive with the green plug connected, so you never check the timing with it.

Other explination is a carbon build up in the engine, and you can't always get rid of that.

What grade and brand of fuel are you running?

 

nipper

[OB99W]

I checked my timing with a timing light and found the ignition timing to be retarded about 150* [...]

I think we can agree that things don't make sense here. Ignition anywhere near 150 degrees from top center isn't likely to lead to a running engine .

 

Are you sure that you're referencing the proper mark on the pulley? Is there any possibility that the timing light you're using has an offset that isn't correctly zeroed? Perhaps you should try another timing light.

 

Nipper mentioned some things to consider for pinging, and there are others, but verifying the ignition timing at idle isn't a bad starting point.

[brus brother]

I'm all for a "pinging" sticky. How does one determine a "colder" plug and is there any science in determining how much colder? My car is a 2000 Legacy GT Auto with pinging (apparently unlike Brice k) from day one using manual prescribed 87 octane, slightly less noticeable at 89 and nearly gone at 91. Condition is nonexistent in winter and presents itself when ambient temperature reaches about 60 degrees F and is even sometimes present under light load.

[nipper]

I'm all for a "pinging" sticky. How does one determine a "colder" plug and is there any science in determining how much colder? My car is a 2000 Legacy GT Auto with pinging (apparently unlike Brice k) from day one using manual prescribed 87 octane, slightly less noticeable at 89 and nearly gone at 91. Condition is nonexistent in winter and presents itself when ambient temperature reaches about 60 degrees F and is even sometimes present under light load.

 

i can find the links again to explain ping and the spark plugs. Plugs com in three heat ranges. Hot normal and cold. The way to get a differnt heat range is to ask for it at the parts counter of a decent autoparts store.

 

 

nipper

[brice k]

Thanks.

 

I played with the timing light zero calibration, and the mark moved properly.

 

I'm using the grove that's cut in the front of the crank pulley, I don't see anything else that resembles a mark.

 

Iv'e run 1/2 gal toluene with a tank of premium and it still pinged.

 

Compression is @ 155-160 on all 4 cyl.

 

The KS is new and I checked the restance, its @ spc @ the sensor.

I have the ecu pinout so I'll check it there as well.

 

I have a wideband 02 kicking out simulated narrow band to the ecu. I'm going to put the stocker back in for now.

 

I'm going to have the injectors serviced.

 

I just picked up a coil @ the junkyard off a 90 legacy N/A. It looks about the same. I'm going to try swapping that in.

 

:piggyback:

I have a SMT6 http://www.perfectpowerusa.citymax.com/page/page/2003728.htm that my brother got from http://rallitek.com/ (a subaru proformance shop here in Portland)

 

I have already removed the timing controll, and today I'm removing the injector control and the simulated narrow band 02 output.

 

people have been using the SMT6 on the ej22t with mixed results (minor problems)

 

Fule pressure @ idle was ~29psi. I understand that it should be around 37@ idle, so I put a hose clamp on the return line for now and cranked it up to about 45psi @ idle, still pinging.

 

I just got a sutible dc volt meeter, so I'm going to check the MAF, IAT, TPS, KS @ the ecu pins.

 

Any other ideas?

 

Thanks

 

Brice

[nipper]

It's amazing how no one goes for the simple stuff first. No place in there do i see you mention chnging the spark plugs , but hey, its your money to throw away. On spark plug heat ranges

 

From the NGK website

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/techtips.asp?nav=31000&country=US

The insulator nose length is the distance from the firing tip of the insulator to the point where insulator meets the metal shell. Since the insulator tip is the hottest part of the spark plug, the tip temperature is a primary factor in pre-ignition and fouling. Whether the spark plugs are fitted in a lawnmower, boat, or a race car, the spark plug tip temperature must remain between 500C-850°C. If the tip temperature is lower than 500°C, the insulator area surrounding the center electrode will not

be hot enough to burn off carbon and combustion chamber deposits. These accumulated deposits can result in spark plug fouling leading to misfire. If the tip temperature is higher than 850°C the spark plug will overheat which may cause the ceramic around the center electrode to blister and the electrodes to melt. This may lead to pre-ignition/detonation and expensive engine damage. In identical spark plug types, the difference from one heat range to the next is the ability to remove approximately 70°C to 100°C from the combustion chamber. A projected style spark plug firing tip temperature is increased by 10°C to 20°C.

 

As much as i dont like champion plugs, they have a highly detailed explination of spark plug construcion

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/sparkplugs.html

The term "heat range" refers to the relative temperature of the core nose of a spark plug. The words "hot" or "cold," when used in referencing spark plugs, are often a source of confusion and misunderstanding, since normally a hot spark plug is used in a cold engine (low horsepower) and a cold plug in a hot engine (high horsepower). The terms actually refer to the heat rating or thermal characteristics of the plug; more specifically, the plug's ability to dissipate heat from its firing end into the engine cooling system. A cold plug transfers heat rapidly away from its firing end into the cooling system and is used to avoid core nose heat saturation where combustion chamber or cylinder head temperatures are relatively high. A hot spark plug has a much slower rate of heat transfer and is used to avoid fouling where combustion chamber or cylinder head temperatures are relatively low. The primary means of adjusting heat range are by varying the length of the core nose and the alloy material used in the electrodes. Hot plugs have a relatively long insulator nose with a long heat transfer path. Cold plugs have a much shorter insulator nose and thus, transfer heat more rapidly. The heat range of a plug does not affect the power output of an engine. Rather, it allows the plug to function as designed for the duration of the racing event (or other use-nipper). In other words, once the correct heat range is found that prevents fouling and does not contribute to the pre-ignition or detonation, a change to a hotter or colder plug will not have a positive effect on engine performance.

 

 

nipper

[brice k]

Thanks.

 

I forgot to mention:

 

I did replace the plugs/wires last week. Went with NGK V-powers standard heat range. Yesterday I orderd some V-powers one range cooler. Will install them as soon as they arrive.

[OB99W]

I played with the timing light zero calibration, and the mark moved properly.

 

I'm using the grove that's cut in the front of the crank pulley, I don't see anything else that resembles a mark.

Assuming that the timing light correctly adjusts to zero offset (you might want to check timing of another engine with the light), that only leaves a couple of possibilities:

 

1) On the 2.5, and I believe also on the 2.2, the groove is at what I'd call the rear of the crank pulley, nearest to the timing scale, and it's highlighted with a dab of white paint. Are you referencing something else?

 

2) It's possible that your pulley is failing, and that the outer portion has turned with respect to the inner part. Or, someone mounted the pulley without using the woodruff key (but torqued the bolt really well), which could allow it to be turned relative to the crank.

[1 Lucky Texan]

Assuming that the timing light correctly adjusts to zero offset (you might want to check timing of another engine with the light), that only leaves a couple of possibilities:

 

1) On the 2.5, and I believe also on the 2.2, the groove is at what I'd call the rear of the crank pulley, nearest to the timing scale, and it's highlighted with a dab of white paint. Are you referencing something else?

 

2) It's possible that your pulley is failing, and that the outer portion has turned with respect to the inner part. Or, someone mounted the pulley without using the woodruff key (but torqued the bolt really well), which could allow it to be turned relative to the crank.

 

wow, good post, I've only been lurking but I can't help wondering if some carbon deposits could be the cause instead of timing? Isn't compression a tad high? maybe carbon buildup?

 

I dunno

 

Carl

[ShawnW]

Wouldnt it be more like 180" ATDC, meaning you get 2 sparks....I thought that was how the coilpack worked, sparking both cyl's on each side simultaniously.

[nipper]

that would place him 30 degrees off (150 + 30 = 180) It is a waste spark ignition, just like you said. Two wires fire at the same time on the same coil.

 

 

nipper

[NuclearBacon]

wow, good post

 

serious

[OB99W]

that would place him 30 degrees off (150 + 30 = 180) It is a waste spark ignition, just like you said. Two wires fire at the same time on the same coil.

If brice k is looking at the wrong place (not near the timing scale), that could explain things. Of course, then we're talking 30 degrees BTDC, which would seem to be a bit more advance than usual (by about 10 to 15 degrees), and could be a reason for the pinging.

 

Even though the ignition timing is dynamically controlled by the ECU, that doesn't mean it isn't a good thing to check initially, especially on a car that apparently has non-factory "goodies".

[nipper]

If brice k is looking at the wrong place (not near the timing scale), that could explain things. Of course, then we're talking 30 degrees BTDC, which would seem to be a bit more advance than usual (by about 10 to 15 degrees), and could be a reason for the pinging.

 

Even though the ignition timing is dynamically controlled by the ECU, that doesn't mean it isn't a good thing to check initially, especially on a car that apparently has non-factory "goodies".

 

i think he got the 30 by coonnecting the diagnostic connector then checking the timing, which will give you weird readings.

 

nipper

[brice k]

The problem is fixed!!!

 

I sw2aped on a junkyard coil and the pinging problem went away!

 

The old coil must have been leaking voltage to the wrong leads causing the pinging.

 

It would also explaine why the timing was so wacky and the fact that timing didn't change when I pulled it off of any of the 4 cylinders.

 

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Now for a bigger turbo/injectors/and an air to water intercooler.

Of course I pulled all my aftermarket electronics off, so I'll have to re-install all of that also.

 

Brice

[ShawnW]

AWESOME! This turned out to be a great topic, one that makes ya think is nice once in a while!

 

More posts from you are definately encouraged!

[nipper]

The problem is fixed!!!

 

I sw2aped on a junkyard coil and the pinging problem went away!

 

The old coil must have been leaking voltage to the wrong leads causing the pinging.

 

It would also explaine why the timing was so wacky and the fact that timing didn't change when I pulled it off of any of the 4 cylinders.

 

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Now for a bigger turbo/injectors/and an air to water intercooler.

Of course I pulled all my aftermarket electronics off, so I'll have to re-install all of that also.

 

Brice

 

Talk about a long shot. i never would have guessed that one. i am trying to visualize it. Always learn something new.

 

nipper

[1 Lucky Texan]

Talk about a long shot. i never would have guessed that one. i am trying to visualize it. Always learn something new.

 

nipper

 

me too. were the coils just firing continuously? weird.

 

Carl

[bgd73]

The problem is fixed!!!

 

I sw2aped on a junkyard coil and the pinging problem went away!

 

The old coil must have been leaking voltage to the wrong leads causing the pinging.

 

It would also explaine why the timing was so wacky and the fact that timing didn't change when I pulled it off of any of the 4 cylinders.

 

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Now for a bigger turbo/injectors/and an air to water intercooler.

Of course I pulled all my aftermarket electronics off, so I'll have to re-install all of that also.

 

Brice

 

On a 4 cylinder won't the timing be the same no matter where you pull it because of 180 degrees fire?:cool:

[brice k]

I inspected the old coil better today.

 

I cut the wire clip off it and the wires look fine.

 

Either the coil is failing inturnally

 

OR

 

there was allot of dielectric grease in the wire connecter, maybe the voltage was jumping the pins with the help of the grease?

 

The engine has 230,000 miles, and that was probably the origional coil.

Iv'e seen a spark jump plug wires plenty of times, so it makes sense that the coil could do the same thing. After all the coil voltage loves to jump between gaps. that's it's whole job

 

Anyways I've been crusing around the back roads today and the car is running nearly perfect.

 

Brice

[nipper]

could be a hairline crack in a coil tower, but it works so drive it

 

 

nipper