Mechanic replaced [lots o'stuff] -vibration - vibrates; how bad can it get?

[edrach]

I'm late coming into this discussion, but vibration when accelerating that goes away instantly as you let of the gas can be caused by the inner (DOJ) joint of the axles. I've had it on one car so slight the mechanic insisted there was nothing wrong with the car; replacing the axles cured the problem. I've had it on another wagon with brand new rebuilds (ARA); replacing the axles cured the problem. I've had it on my Brat so bad that I thought the transmission was falling out of the car; replacing the axles cured it also. I always did both axles since there was no visible sign of a bad joint. Just my two cents worth. Good luck with this.

[Hank Roberts]

Talked to the mechanic, who says he used new not rebuilt axles from a company with "MH" in its name -- he's got the flu, didn't remember. That worries me. Anyone recognize that as a brand name? Not Subaru parts.

 

But -- but -- but

 

But the mechanic just told me -- now! -- that when he got my engine back from the rebuilder -- on April 14th! -- he'd measured compression at 150/175/165/165 psi. And called the rebuilder then, to say send a replacement -- the rebuilder told the mechanic that they didn't have another engine to send, and the car sat a month while they weren't talking to each other.

 

A week ago he gave me the car because I had gear to take out to the mountain, still without an answer from the rebuilder. They thought it might be okay. I hadn't a clue about this or wouldn't have taken it out.

 

Duh.

 

The mechanic says now the vibration going uphill in first gear is because of the weak cylinder. He said "but this only happens going straight up a hill, can't you go around?"

 

I reminded him I got this car to climb 3000' in first gear, there is no 'around' to get to my site. He said, duh, he knew that.

 

He's remeasuring the compression -- with 400 miles I put on the engine -- and calling the rebuilder back right now.

 

This was never "my" engine -- the rebuilder sent me one they did for some European hovercraft guy who didn't take it back; my original got rebuilt for the next person, going on 9 months ago now. It already went back once before and the rebuilder agreed their employee had screwed it up.

 

I wish I know who got my old engine. I bet he's happy. Dang.

 

-----------------

 

I'm going over to the New Subaru forums; got offered first dibs on a 2003 Forester with 20k miles (not til July, though). I hope that comes through, maybe I'd have better luck with that.

[ShawnW]

A rebuilt engine will not register even and full compression until all the valves and rings have seated. This occurs in the first 1000 miles. During this time you need to watch coolant and oil levels carefully and add as needed--and having to add some is normal.

 

I am absolutely positively disappointed that a shop is even doing a compression test on an engine with 400 miles on it and that if they are going to do any sort of testing at all it should be a leak down test but again the numbers he came up with are completely within range for a fresh rebuild.

 

You indicated your idle doesnt cause the shaking and its limited to certain loaded gear situations. This rules out the engine and you need to move onto the driveline. Remember, any part whether its from a junkyard, brand new, or even from the dealer...could be bad right out of the box. Like your rebuilt engine, they are built and inspected by humans and theres always some percentage of failure. A used rear differential and installing a free pressure plate would cause me to be pretty skeptical. What happened to the old rear differential?

 

Heres a valuable lesson for all: Purchase or check out at a library John Muirs book How to keep your Subaru alive and go thru its section "how to buy a used Subaru". Don't trust a shop you don't know to do it for you.

[Hank Roberts]

Edited to get the details right.

Shawn, please review, some of your comments were not on point because I hadn't clearly summarized things.

 

The engine has 750-800 miles or so on it overall, I can check exactly. Much closer to 1000 than 500 total.

 

I said it doesn't shake on idle --- that means I don't feel the shaking in the gas pedal that I describe (and the mechanic has confirmed) in first gear 2wd up a steep slope.

 

But you read what I wrote and took it wrong. The car idles rough -- I expected that in the first thousand miles. Yes, I can hear the unevenness in the exhaust as it idles when it's cold, rm-rm-rm-PT-rm-rm-rm-PT-rm-rm-rm .... and feel it holding my hand over the exhaust. All that's consistent with a little unevenness, from my long ago experience with 1960s cars. None of that was a big deal. But you took it to mean the engine runs smoothly. It doesn't. I didn't expect it to. I did expect it to get better not worse as it wore in. It hasn't.

 

The other possibliities remain, but see next post about trusting the mechanic-- the rebuilder picked the mechanic for me to go to because they've trusted them before and sent new customers there since.

 

 

---- details above added on later edit.

 

Oh -- does this have anything to do with blowing a big cloud of white smoke, just once, the only time I took a tight descending 3/4 turn entering a freeway (Ukiah from N. State Street to 101 north, one of those that really throws you left while you're going down turning right).

 

I thought maybe that was new=engine behavior too?

 

The engine first arrived late last summer -- didn't get installed, because its heads hadn't been properly ground and it was leaking oil into the engine and water into the oil -- the shop confirmed they had a bad employee who hadn't properly reground the heads. They fixed that. Engine went in in the fall and I drove it maybe 300-400 miles, some long mountain trips.

 

Then it started leaking coolant (big white misty cloud on starting) and the engine went back for reseal of cylinder heads and cam housings.

 

While it was away last time the front axles were replaced; the engine was put back in. It began shaking in first uphill then. It hadn't shaken like that the first time. So I suspected everything else (listed above).

 

I ran it another 340 miles last weekend and brought it back in -- still with the pronounced first gear uphill shake and a brake noise.

 

So they'll have a new set of compression numbers tomorrow AM -- and those will be at around 700-800 miles since the first rebuild, and around 400 miles since the second rebuild.

 

Does that make any more sense to you? From what you say I better understand why they'd all send me out onto the road -- I knew the engine needed some wearing-in. But it got worse, not better, over the last 400 miles.

 

These things don't get worse while they're wearing in, do they?

 

I stayed under 4000 RPM, drove normally, didn't 'baby' it or drive like I'd stolen it either one.

 

I also think it's smart to get a baseline measure on anything though -- see no problem with the mechanic recording compression (I now understand why they told me it was ok to drive at 500 miles with those numbers -- they would agree with you and the rebuilder that it just wasn't worn in yet).

 

I've told them exactly where I drive it, the long run in 4wd low first gear climbing into the mountains -- and the rebuilder and mechanic both said that's ok to drive in the wearing-in time. they know this is why I bought the car).

 

So -- at over 700 miles on the rebuild, would you expect compression-related shaking to be developing and getting worse?

 

I'll post today's compression numbers when I get them.

 

And I agree with you, I don't have what it takes to own one of these cars bought second hand. I do in fact have the John Muir book and used it, and checked all the records -- and knew it was a gamble for a 1988 car. I lost the gamble, at least financially.

 

Experience is what we get when we didn't have foresight.

[Hank Roberts]

Shawn, do you know the engine I'm talking about?

 

The local mechanic is the one recommended by the rebuilder -- who has worked with them before me and has referred other people to them since, and the rebuilder told me this mechanic's OK.

 

When I hear you say the mechanic must be wrong -- which says the rebuilder must be sending me to someone they're mistaken about trusting -- it makes me think you must be very sure what's going on.

 

How about if I run another 300 miles -- I could do that tomorrow and Sunday, go back to the mountain -- I really do need to make that trip if I can.

 

That'd put the engine at 1000 miles since it was rebuilt the second time (when the heads were redone last fall).

 

Do you think it's safe to go with the engine as it is, and would it be more definite to check compression at 1000 miles than at 7-800?

 

And what conclusion is correct if the compression has gotten worse on the cylinder that was low to begin?

 

I am trying to do this just exactly as advised -- I described the driving conditions to the rebuilder to make sure I wasn't overstressing the engine during wearin.

 

And -- next to last edit -- I'll fill in new info if I get any tomorrow.

 

But after tomorrow I'll be packing and then gone. We wanted the Subaru just for the one long camping trip we take each June with family. It won't be ready, so it doesn't get to go with us this year. No other need for it.

 

I've rented a big 4wd drive truck that will hold us all instead, so the Subaru's going to be in the hands of the mechanic and rebuilder. Both are reputable shops that have good warranties and reputations for standing by them. They'll work it out. And I'll be gone til July, while they do whatever they decide.

[Hank Roberts]

And -- next to last edit -- I'll fill in new info if I get any tomorrow.

 

[Edited again, more info, to keep it together finally]

 

Compression mid-April when the engine came back from being resealed

(3-400 miles after 1st re-rebuild) was: 150/175/165/165

 

Driving it another 350-400 miles, it changed: +20/+25/+20/+20

on June 3rd after I got back from the mountain ( 750-800 miles after re-rebuild)

 

EDIT -- I was given these numbers over the phone: 170/200/195/195

Done the day the mechanic duplicated the vibration/shaking

in first gear 2wd going up a very steep slope, as complained of earlier.

 

EDIT -- I found these different numbers on the invoice written that same day

and I am not sure if more than one test was run, or more than one kind.:

170/195/175/185

I'll find out.

 

Comments please from those with expertise in rebuilt 1800 engines?

 

How do those pressure numbers look?

 

Would you do another 350-400 mile trip --- long steep switchbacky (paved) first gear 2wd climbs, and a 9-mile dirt 4wd low first gear? That'd reach the mark total of over 1000 miles since it was first re-rebuilt last fall, (and over 500 miles since it was re-re-rebuilt in March/April for leaky seals).

 

We're waiting on the rebuilder [and] the mechanic ... [and whatever I do by driving another 400 miles in the next few weeks reveals] to agree on what's next. Everybody's had the flu (me included) so I expect things to get better as people recover.

 

[Mechanic confirmed one suggestion above -- got a dried strut mount and bushings at right front, where that's become noisy crawling up the pothole trail. ]

 

[Mechanic also said the car has slight wear and tear and play in the steering rack -- not enough to worry about -- and that's what's making the groaning noise when turning sharpest in either direction.]

 

Here's hoping.

 

I'll check back in mid next week -- as we're packing -- and decide whether we take this vehicle along (as a 2nd car, not going to trust it with the kids). Worst case -- it's a $600 tow out by the 4wd tow guy.

 

And, no, I won't rely solely on BBS advice.

[GeneralDisorder]

Those numbers look pretty decent - and there is not enough difference between the low cylinder and high cylinder to cause any sort of noticeable vibration. Ideally you would want no more than 10% difference, but 15% is fine - it's probably a valve seat on that cylinder - the rings seem to be wearing in quite well.

 

As long as your fluids are good, it sounds like you are a good to go on the engine itself.

 

Your vibration is in the drivetrain - no doubt about it. It's most likely directly related to your "new" axles. Personally I use the ones made by GCK Industrial, but even though they are generally VERY good and strong, a friend of mine had the exact symtoms you are having after installing a pair. He reverted to his old axles and all was well again - he went with rebilt units for that car. I have had no problems..... other than a slight increase in vibration on my lifted wagon - same type - accelerating in first gear..... and I suspect he got one bad axle in the two he ordered. It only takes a small mis-calculation in machineing, or accidentally using the wrong joint parts off the shelf when assembling it....

 

GD

[Hank Roberts]

>it's probably a valve seat on that cylinder

That likely to cause of the cloud of smoke, the one time accelerating into a descending 3/4 circle freeway entry ramp?

 

I'll do that ramp again next trip and watch for it if it's diagnostic of anything.

 

By late June, I'll have driven another 400 miles or so, half mountain road, and the engine will have maybe 1200 miles since its first re-rebuild, 800 since the second one. (And 800 on the front axles -- new, not rebuilt.) I guess that ought to help sort out what's shaking.

 

The engine, in 400 miles since it was resealed, hasn't lost significant oil or coolant. I check it like it was my 1960s Chevy, every couple hundred miles.

 

I do have more shaking noticeable at idle today -- stopped at red lights, it's definitely gotten worse over the 800 miles. Well, time will sort it out.

 

But for anyone with bogging down at low speeds -- replacing the throttle position sensor was magic. That at least is better than it's ever been.

[rallyruss]

the readings you are showing are consistantly bad.

the normaly accepted range is 10psi max difference between cylinders. your first check shows 25 the second 30. thats not exactly normal. your readings are also a bit higher than I would normally expect to see.

shaking at idle could possibly be the motor. espically if you have noticed it getting worse. did the mechanic do any vacume tests or running conpression tests? cylinder contribution is another good one.

we can all "guess" at the cause of the problem here over the net but you and your mechanic are the only ones that have had first hand experience with the car.

Im not a full blown subaru expert but I have worked on a few EA82s over the years along with many others as a mechanic. If you wish to swing down to the south bay for a visit I would be more than willing to give you a second(or is that fourth) opinion on the matter.

 

hope it all gets straightened out. good luck and have fun camping.

[ShawnW]

If this engine is an SPFI, then be absolutely sure somebody has done the PCV system hose recall. Why?

 

The original hose routing would cause the engine to burn oil when cornering. That would explain the white smoke. Be absolutely sure that somebody has replaced the PCV valve with a genuine Subaru one as well. They are $12-13 vs the FRAM 4 dollar one but they are considerably better and truly designed for a Subaru.

[Hank Roberts]

It is SPFI. I'll have to look up whether the PCV hose and valve were supplied (presumably new and correct position) on the rebuild engine -- or if they aren't supplied with the rebuild and get put on locally -- in which case, I dunno.

 

I'd have thought they'd be part of a rebuild, but it's a detail I'm not sure of -- and since it's been back to the rebuilder twice for fixes, it's worth checking.

 

Thanks, I'll look into it. Pointer to picture/instructions, anyone? Presumably it's in the shop manuals.

 

But if someone can show me how it ought to look, I'll check it myself before I drive it this weekend. Picture or diagram?

 

EDITED:

 

I've looked and I haven't found anything about this. Pointer most welcome if it's documented somewhere.

 

EDIT: more details in resp. 31, to keep them all in one place. Still digging for more info.

[Hank Roberts]

Thanks to the transmission rebuilder, who's been worrying this over and called me this morning, saying -- could the shop that replaced the front axles have just failed to do a front wheel alignment?

 

It wasn't on the invoice.

 

I took it to our reliable tire place for alignment check. They too first suspected a bad new axle (and still may) but found a more immediate problem:

 

They couldn't align the front end -- they found a badly worn steering knuckle -- the socket that holds the bottom of right front strut (not noticed by prior shops, quite visible movement in overlarge hole -- the other shops had thought the top of the strut had dried out but not noticed the bottom was loose).

 

That may explain all of the vibration on acceleration. Heck, it may explain why the right front axle was clicking, may not have needed the axles. Dunno.

 

Tire shop will start by fixing that, when I can leave it with them in a couple of weeks; he said it's safe to do our planned 350 mile trip with it before thent.

 

And if it still shakes after replacing the worn out steering knuckle at the base of the front strut, getting that tight, then aligning/balancing, he'll suspect one of the new axles is bad.

 

For reference:

 

Problem found by: Don's Tire, 820 Gilman, Berkeley 94710-1422. Phone 510-526-0335; fax 510-524-3914. Their expert is Tony. And he's seen the Subaru front end problems before and knows what to check.

[Hank Roberts]

One last question, while Don's Tire is working on getting replacement steering knuckles.

 

The tire shop showed me the bottom end of the strut, visible at the bottom of the steering knuckle, and showed me it's wiggling side to side, even with the tightening screw on the steering knuckle socket tightened down fully. I saw a bump in the grease go back and forth as he wiggled the strut.

 

They concluded it's the steering knuckle that had worn out.

 

Last question -- is there a chance it's the bottom of the _strut_ that's worn out?

 

I just realized, since the tire shop didn't take the thing apart, there may be some judgment involved here -- they're telling me, looking at the end of the strut showing, through the grease, and moving -- that it's the hole in the steering knuckle that's gotten too big, since they can't adjust it any tighter.

 

Should I ask them to pop the strut out and make sure the bottom of the strut isn't what's gotten worn too small to fit, first? Can that happen? Elsewhere in a topic specific to steering knuckles I've learned they should never wear out. So now I'm wondering, is this diagnosis right?

 

I'm posting this in the general thread where I've tried all sorts of ideas about what might've been causing the shaking -- just going a little farther in the generaly "what could it be" here.

[Hank Roberts]

Just to close this thread out, it was "all of the above" --- the guys who replaced the front axles and put the engine back in after its 2nd trip back to the rebuilders under warranty kept telling me the vibration was uneven compression on the engine. After a while they also told me they really didn't want to work on any car older than 10 years, and the lack of enthusiasm was real obvious.

 

After a year, and about 800 miles -- two standard camping trips ---- on the axles and engine, vibration continuing, I found an oldtime Subaru guy working in a little shop on the far end of town (by asking everyone I saw driving a GL-series, over the year).

 

It was both. The axles ("new from China") wore out in 800 miles, they were made of soft steel, barely heat treated enough to look good on the surface. And the engine compression? It blew another head gasket while the mechanic was test-driving it to diagnose the vibration.

 

It's in the hands of the mechanic and rebuilder warranty at this point (and getting used original Subaru axles he can inspect). The 'new' axle company's out of business already, no recourse there. Watch out for 'new' replacement front axles off the shelf, they may still be out there. Get your warranty from the seller not the manufacturer, or make sure what you're getting.

 

Ah, so it goes. End of thread.