nickb21 Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Okay, so about 600 miles ago I had the clutch replaced in my ’02 outback (under warr.), it had a wicked cold shudder. First couple hundred miles it was nice and smooth, engaged a little close to the floor, but I could deal. Now, it seems to have come back ( cold and warm ), not as pronounced this time. Engagement around 1k rpm seems to cause it to mildly shudder, higher revs are ok. It’s also easily noticeable with idle starts on flat ground. I don’t think the revs are low enough to lug, and it doesn’t feel like an engine lug. Can anyone else start up in first just by using the idle power? Maybe something is glazed? Broken spring? I guess I’ll sneak down to the dealer and see if the have any 03/04’s for me to test this out on, before I grab a mechanic. I Read through the, “SOA didn't fix my clutch-shudder problem!” and “What's the Verdict on the new Subaru Clutches?” threads, maybe I just need to try out 2 or 3 clutches on for size... Thanks for any insight; I definitely appreciate all the help I’ve received here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Outback Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 I found that with my '93 Legacy Turbo the clutch definetly takes a touch. I've had the car for a month and I'm a lot better then what I was. But I definetly get some driveline shudder when pushing it in 1st then shifting to 2nd and letting the revs drop. And I do sometimes get some bucking, could be described as a shudder, from the car when starting off wrong. I found that the best thing to do is not "think" about how I should let the clutch out, I just do it. Could it be that you are "trying" to get it to happen? One of those subconcious things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Exactly! My judder happens mostly when I am alone and have time to be too-careful and let the clutch in real slow. Most of the time, with people in the car, conversation takes some of the concentration away, and she doesn't judder. Although sometimes I think she is just trying to impress the passengers and gets on perfect behaviour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Stop it right now! Already very difficult to pinpoint a mechanical or electrical problem, too many variables! And now you want us to put our subconscious in the equation! Haaaaaghhhh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Outback Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Hey, as a mechanic you have to take in everything that could cause a drivability problem, including the driving style. All I know is that if I pay to much attention to how I let out my clutch, I don't let it out smoothly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb21 Posted November 13, 2003 Author Share Posted November 13, 2003 Good news! I'm not completely crazy after all. Brought it down to the shop, was able to duplicate it with a mechanic, and they just put in a new clutch kit today. Definitely feels a lot better than the previous "kit" they put in, time will tell. Interestingly enough, the previous replacement that got put in wasn't the official kit, or so I'm told, but the individual parts, flywheel, clutch, etc.. so maybe someone got the wrong stuff. One of the immediate differences I noticed was the first replacement clutch grabbed really close to the floor but then rasied up after a few hundred miles. This new one today catches a more comfortable hight immediately. The other thing I noticed, is this time my in-dash and radio clock were off this time, so I assume the batt. was disconnected, last time, everything was fine, not sure if you can pull the motor without unhooking the batt... So I'm guessing the computer is reset, do I need to do anything special, or will it just re-learn automatically? I assume the dealer followed whatever procedure is appropriate for the first start up after the reset... Now hopefully I have all these voices straightened out.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theotherskip Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 they probably didn't pull the motor either time if they were just replacing the clutch. but they probably did disconnect the battery both times. they are supposed to record you radio presets before disconnecting the battery, and reprogram it before giving it back to you, and set the clock. as for the computer, just drive the car like you normally do. it will learn all by it self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alias20035 Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 I am on my second replacement clutch as well. The original clutch had a relitively minor judder problem, but its covered under a TSB so I had it changed. The replacement was fine for 5000km and then I had a major judder problem which happened whether I was alone in the car or not, so I don't thnk it was a subconsious thing, although I do understand and accept your point. The odd thing was that my judder problem happened both when the clutch was cold and hot. The clutch was replaced again, this time with a new flywheel. The original flywhell was simply resurfaced first time around. I only have 2,000 km on the third clutch, thus far no judder. Everyone says all Subaru's have a judder problem, but I don't agree. I have more than 700,000 km of driving experience between my 1985 GL, my 1993 Legacy and now my 2001 Outback. Only the Outback has a judder problem. My 1993 Legacy was destroyed in a deer collision with 466,000 km on the odometer, it was still on the original clutch, although it had just started to slip...... I think Subaru went to cheaper components around 1995. Or perhaps they changed to a less toxic and less effective clutch lining, I think my previous Subaru's used asbestos. Changing the clutch requires disconnecting the battery. If dropping the transmission, the starter must be disconnected, and it is not wise to work on the unfused wires connecting to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkk2002 Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Our 2002 Legacy clutch shuddered from day 1. The service department where we bought the car told us that's the way it's supposed to be. The service department at the second dealer we went to adjusted the idle speed and said that would fix the problem. The third service department we went to implied that we didn't know how to drive the car. I then overheard another customer talking with a service manager about a service bulletin for "violently shuddering clutches" on late model Legacys. We then demanded that they install a new clutch kit and the car is running fine since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myles Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Originally posted by theotherskip they probably didn't pull the motor either time if they were just replacing the clutch. but they probably did disconnect the battery both times. they are supposed to record you radio presets before disconnecting the battery, and reprogram it before giving it back to you, and set the clock. as for the computer, just drive the car like you normally do. it will learn all by it self. While the service manual would have you remove the transmission, it's probably faster to remove the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAlgie Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 My '01 Impreza RS has cold clutch shudder, but warm it never seems to be a problem. You definately have to be careful on a cold start with the thing, it's slip range is very narrow like a race clutch is. My take on the problem is that the car has a lightweight flywheel, my 4.3 S10 truck has a massive flywheel and it's impossible to stall, the inertia of the flywheel makes up for the lugging down of the driveline loads. Another thing, I feel the EJ25 has very little power at 1000 rpm, try to take off at this rpm cold and it's shudder city. use 1300 and you are fine. While on the subject, the car got clutch slip at 20k miles, I checked the freeplay on the clutch pedal and it had none! I adjusted it to the manual's specs and all was well. The car has like zero freeboard as factory spec. Unusual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monk Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 rah! my first post... I, too, have a 2002 OBW that had the cold clutch judder problem that developed over a period of about 2 weeks around 34K mi. The first time I took it to the dealer and they basically blew me off by "reinstalling the onboard computer software." That's like the Microsoft tech help guy telling me to reinstall the Windows software... Anyway, the judder was even worse a week later, so i took it back and just told them i wanted them to replace the clutch as described in the TSB for the judder. They said, "okay." What I didn't tell them was that there was 35,500 mi on the car (which they eventually discovered). So, I got a new free clutch (yay). HOWEVER, about 700 mi after the new clutch was installed, the clutch pedal started sticking down after about 30-45 min of driving in stop and go traffic. SO, I took it back to the dealer and spoke to the service manager who said he wasn't going to take the time to drive it for 45 min and that he wasn't going to replace any parts since he couldn't reproduce the problem (WTF!?). About two hours after I yelled at him over the phone I got a call back saying they replaced the slave cylinder and it was ready to be picked up. i haven't been caught in traffic yet, so I'm not sure if the problem's fixed or not. So there is a TSB on the sticky clutch pedal?? Does anyone have the text? I am interested in seeing what SOA recommends for the fix. It seems every time i have the dealer work on it, i have to remind THEM that there's a TSB out on whatever problem i have! Now about these leaky head gaskets... I asked the dealer about the problem and he said it only affected the Phase I engines. It sounds like that's not really true. I guess i need to find a new dealer Moral of the story: If you're not sure whether you have the judder or not, just wait, it'll get much worse if you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb21 Posted May 18, 2004 Author Share Posted May 18, 2004 Wow, really dragged this thread out of the dark. Good to hear your judder is fixed, at least for now. I've learned to deal w/ mine, don't feel like trying to get it fixed anymore, heck, maybe the clutch will last longer... Anyways, I saw an article on endwrench.com (cool resource) about your sticky clutch, maybe it's the same thing: http://endwrench.com/current/winter04/insiderinfo0204.pdf From what I've heard (and you can search around this forum) the phaseII's leak externally, so you shouldn't have any major issues like overheating, etc. There is a recall/TSB out for the leak. Apparently the solution is adding cooland system conditioner.. Hope that helps some. --Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monk Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Thanks, Nick... I checked my receipt and the part number matches the one in the endwrench article. The clutch feels more "normal" now- not such a huge amount of travel. I haven't had the judder since they replaced the clutch, so i guess I'll keep my fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_smith Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 huh, I have had this problem both on the 95 outback and the 02 outback, never brough the car in for it though since it only does it some times. Is there a beefier aftermarket clutch you could put in that would eliminate this problem? Seems silly to replace one crappy clutch with the same one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monk Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 huh, I have had this problem both on the 95 outback and the 02 outback, never brough the car in for it though since it only does it some times. Is there a beefier aftermarket clutch you could put in that would eliminate this problem? Seems silly to replace one crappy clutch with the same one. Apparently, they are replacing all of the '02 and earlier clutches with '03 clutches, which are supposedly "better". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 as did a number of other folks. Pretty much fixed it. I had the pedal hanging problem and followed the bulletin and it did not give me a complete repair. I did not have enough fluid presure from the clutch master and once I changed that too my car has acted like it should for a year or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strakes Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 I also had my 2002 Legacy clutch replaced under warranty. It was great for the first week or so and then it returned. It turned out that the dealer had forgotten to replace the engine pitch stop bolt (located under the air cleaner, at the top of the engine/drivetrain). They replaced it and the judder disappeared, and hasn't returned for over 8000 miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotts Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 wanted to share this with anyone bringing this old thread up while searching. TSB is # 03-51-02F My understanding is that cars in AND out of warentee (if you stick to your guns) are recieving replacement clutches, release bearings, and sometimes flywheels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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