PLEASE HELP... car won't start...:(

[Mjez]

sure drag me back in kicking and screaming, i thought you were my freind

 

. i've been avoiding this of late since it seems to be all over the place.

I may repeat myself and others, but after 5 pages i need a recap.

The crank and cam sensor have been checked with an analog a/c meter to check for a heartbeat when the engine is cranked through one complete cycle. there should be 6 heartbeats for the crank and 7 for the cam shaft.

The coil packs have been checked for resistance and opens (exact specs are in the haynes manual).

The ignitor output has been checked with an led testlight.

Is there power to the fuel injectors?

Are the fuel injectors opening and closing (bad ecu)

Are there any dirty connectors or wires

is the TPS within spec

Is the ecu engine temp sensor operating.

Is the intake clear?

 

beyond that i cant help without looking at the car.

 

nipper

 

The crank and cam sensors have been checked and they do output analog signal.

I also checked the tabs on both crank as well as cam sprockets.

Coil pack’s been checked for resistance, plus as I said before it has a spark coming out of one half of the coil, but when I switched connection to the coil then the other half started sparking but not the first half.

Ignitor output’s been checked with digital probe, it only outputs from one side of the connector.

Fuel injectors are functioning, when attempted to start it earlier while pumping gas pedal and pulling out spark plugs they were completely covered in gasoline.

No dirty connectors that I can see. CPS was a little dirty from oil but I cleaned it.

Can’t test TPS. I tried but I got some strange clicking sound coming from the bottom of the motor so I stopped right there. Can’t find the right equipment to test it. Seems like my alligator clips are no good for this task.

Can’t disconnect the temp sensor at its harness. Anyone has a good idea of how to pull it off?

Intake is looking clean.

I think some of those could be eliminated since I get spark on half of the ignition coil, don’t you guys think?

Is it possible that the igniter in the car is bad and so is the one from the junkyard? Is there a good way to test the ignitor? I noticed something interesting while connecting ignitor to ohmmeter. Ignitor outputs going to coil were acting funny. One had no resistance at all and the other was fluctuating, it looked as if it was going from overload down to nothing and then back to overload. Looked interesting because the ignitor from junkyard wasn’t doing anything like it.

So what is causing that I get spark at coil for cylinders 1 and 2 but no spark at all for cylinders 3 and 4???

Also, did I mention that I checked the wiring between ECU and ignitor connectors as well as between ignitor and coil connectors.

Also, output of pin 14 on ECU is different than output on pin 13. One has 1.1 volts and the other has only 0.1 volts.

Interesting, isn’t it?

Now I’m thinking of going to the store to buy a scanner and to hook it up to this car hoping it would show me something. I’m just afraid that maybe it won’t show anything since the car wasn’t running at all plus it had its battery disconnected more than once.

Just in case, what kind of scanner/connector do I need to get to hook it up to this car? Would it be just any OBD II scanner?

Thanks again to all of you

Matt

[nipper]

Can’t test TPS. I tried but I got some strange clicking sound coming from the bottom of the motor so I stopped right there. Can’t find the right equipment to test it. Seems like my alligator clips are no good for this task.

 

 

huh?

 

the throttle position sensor is just a variable rheostate and can be easily tested with an ohm meter. What strange clicking sound out of the bottom of the motor are you talking about? (a clue ?)

i cant make heads nor tails out of the ignitor info, as i would go straight by the book (and have for oh lets say my 20 years of FI expierience) and it is usally very good at diagnosing the problem. Its not that complicated a system. The temp sensor just has a clip on the connector, sometimes its a beast but it will come off.

i'm still going with the ignitor but like i said, at this point i need the car in front of me to determin whats going on.

 

nipper

[tcspeer]

Mjez, I cant tell you what is wrong with your car but I can tell you what I do when in this sitution. I take my car to a local shop here that has lots of fancy test equipment, I get them to tell me whats wrong and then most of the time I can fix it myself. The mechanic knows all I want is a dignoses and it usually costs me around 40.00 or 50.00 dollars. Maybe you can find someone there or even pay Subaru to find your problem. I wish I could help but my thoughts have already been mentioned.

[nipper]

Mjez, I cant tell you what is wrong with your car but I can tell you what I do when in this sitution. I take my car to a local shop here that has lots of fancy test equipment, I get them to tell me whats wrong and then most of the time I can fix it myself. The mechanic knows all I want is a dignoses and it usually costs me around 40.00 or 50.00 dollars. Maybe you can find someone there or even pay Subaru to find your problem. I wish I could help but my thoughts have already been mentioned.

 

im at that point too. Is it possible, at all possible that the timing belt jumped? What condition was the tensioner in when you chnaged everything

 

nipper

[rcoaster]

What about the engine temp sensor? I've heard that this sensor could cause difficulty starting.

[nipper]

What about the engine temp sensor? I've heard that this sensor could cause difficulty starting.

 

 

thats on the checklist that needs to be looked at. im begining to think the timing belt jumped one tooth, then two teeth. that goes along with the hard start then the no start.

 

i want a beer (or another dillaudid)

 

nipper

[tcspeer]

Nipper, that is a really good thought on checking the belt, Mjez remember if you check the timing dont try to get the lines on the belt to line back up, line your timing marks up and count the teeth like the Haynes manual shows. Those marks on the belt wont line back up until a lot of relvolitions have been made. If the marks on the belt can still be seen you might be beter off just to do it over, and check the tensioner as Nipper suggested.

im at that point too. Is it possible, at all possible that the timing belt jumped? What condition was the tensioner in when you chnaged everything

 

nipper

[nipper]

Nipper, that is a really good thought on checking the belt, Mjez remember if you check the timing dont try to get the lines on the belt to line back up, line your timing marks up and count the teeth like the Haynes manual shows. Those marks on the belt wont line back up until a lot of relvolitions have been made. If the marks on the belt can still be seen you might be beter off just to do it over, and check the tensioner as Nipper suggested.

 

 

Thats what i used to get paid for, try the obvious and look for the subtle causes. i just figured we exhausted everything it was time to back to the last major repair, which was not that long ago. That just made sense to me.

Now about that beer:banana:

 

nipper

[Mjez]

Mjez, I cant tell you what is wrong with your car but I can tell you what I do when in this sitution. I take my car to a local shop here that has lots of fancy test equipment, I get them to tell me whats wrong and then most of the time I can fix it myself. The mechanic knows all I want is a dignoses and it usually costs me around 40.00 or 50.00 dollars. Maybe you can find someone there or even pay Subaru to find your problem. I wish I could help but my thoughts have already been mentioned.

 

would go to local shop if the car was running, at this point it's paying hundreds for tow fees only.

[Mjez]

im at that point too. Is it possible, at all possible that the timing belt jumped? What condition was the tensioner in when you chnaged everything

 

nipper

 

tensioner looked fine, plus I checked the timing points on all sprokets and they still align. don't know wha else to tell you.

[Mjez]

also, I checked the ignitor and it seems fine. I ran a wire from pin 1 and then tuched the battery positive contact to see if I get a spark at coil, spark looked just fine. then I did the same for pin 2 of ignitor and it looked good again... so that eliminates the faulty ignitor.

 

Nipper, I fallowed what manual said with testing the TPS and got nothing else but clicking sound out from... hmmm, maybe transmission? don't know. manual says to hook the jumper wires from connector to the TPS and then turn the ignition key to position 2 and to ckeck the voltage between both. during this I noticed clinking sound from the bottom back of the engine. How do you check it with ohmmeter? do I just hook it up to outside pins and turn the throttle? what readings should I get, in what range?

[nipper]

also, I checked the ignitor and it seems fine. I ran a wire from pin 1 and then tuched the battery positive contact to see if I get a spark at coil, spark looked just fine. then I did the same for pin 2 of ignitor and it looked good again... so that eliminates the faulty ignitor.

 

Nipper, I fallowed what manual said with testing the TPS and got nothing else but clicking sound out from... hmmm, maybe transmission? don't know. manual says to hook the jumper wires from connector to the TPS and then turn the ignition key to position 2 and to ckeck the voltage between both. during this I noticed clinking sound from the bottom back of the engine. How do you check it with ohmmeter? do I just hook it up to outside pins and turn the throttle? what readings should I get, in what range?

 

ok now im confused, and im bowing out after this cause nothing is making sense at all. im used to bench testing TPS units and we look for resistance (ohms law) and no dead spots.

Also i dont know if the ignitor gets a 12 volt signal, pulse or lower voltage. Never assume that everything under the hood is 12 volts, nor that it is dc. You can blow up compnents that way. Some are current controled, some work off reverse polarity, others may work off of low voltage. Some are not designed for anything longer then a millisecond pulse.

Ignition coils need a pulse and duration to build up the proper magnetic feild and release it.

http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/cannon/sparky.html Coil designs may change, points may no longer exist, but they still operate the same way.

Some times it is wise to surrender and call the tow truck. i think you may be in over your head, and we cant help you cause the sea is too rough.

 

good luck

 

nipper

[1 Lucky Texan]

also, I checked the ignitor and it seems fine. I ran a wire from pin 1 and then tuched the battery positive contact to see if I get a spark at coil, spark looked just fine. then I did the same for pin 2 of ignitor and it looked good again... so that eliminates the faulty ignitor.

 

Nipper, I fallowed what manual said with testing the TPS and got nothing else but clicking sound out from... hmmm, maybe transmission? don't know. manual says to hook the jumper wires from connector to the TPS and then turn the ignition key to position 2 and to ckeck the voltage between both. during this I noticed clinking sound from the bottom back of the engine. How do you check it with ohmmeter? do I just hook it up to outside pins and turn the throttle? what readings should I get, in what range?

Maybe neutral lockout or something? Wouldn't exhibit the symptom of gradually getting worse. Probably Temp Sensor wouldn't either. Maybe IACV is dirty/sticking?

 

Could you have gotten bad gas or water in the tank? Checked the filter?

 

man - I'm just grasping here. I also kinda liked the tooth jumping business for the belt but you say everything lines up. Is it an OEM belt and did it seem EXACTLY like the old one? How bad was the old one? Did it break on you?

 

 

 

Carl

[Cougar]

Well it looks like a lot has gone on since I've been gone. After looking at the new posts here is what I think.

 

Mjez, your idea about testing the ignitor was good and I also wanted to try something similar to that (I would have added a series current limiting resistor of maybe around 4.7k ohms) but like Nipper said, you can't just touch things like that to full battery voltage and expect it not to damage the circuit. It looks like you got away with it on this one though and have also proved that the ignition is good after the ECU pin connections 13 and 14. This is great to know. This means that the problem is either with the ECU, one the sensors, or one of the cogs for them.

 

All of the other things like the TPS, coolant sensor, MAF sensor, or anything else mentioned, have nothing to do with the ignition not working on two of the cylinders. If you can get another CAS sensor cheaply you might try replacing yours with it. The sensors can get flakey.

[Mjez]

Maybe neutral lockout or something? Wouldn't exhibit the symptom of gradually getting worse. Probably Temp Sensor wouldn't either. Maybe IACV is dirty/sticking?

 

Could you have gotten bad gas or water in the tank? Checked the filter?

 

man - I'm just grasping here. I also kinda liked the tooth jumping business for the belt but you say everything lines up. Is it an OEM belt and did it seem EXACTLY like the old one? How bad was the old one? Did it break on you?

 

 

 

Carl

 

if it was neutral lockout would I be getting spark out of one side of the coil?

does this car has some kind of a circuit that will prevent you from starting it when something else does not function, if so how come it won't stop sending all the signals at the ignitor so there is no spark at all instead of sending some?

what's IACV? never heard of it.

didn't check the filter, after cranking the motor with pushing gas pedal it smelled as if I took a bath in gasoline. plus what bad gas has to do with no spark at one side of the coil?

don't know whose the manufacturer of the belt, my father in law got it, but it seemed exactly the same and also had those marks on it which in turn matched the timing points on the sprokets. Belt didn't break on the car. My father in law got this car in December and we figured it's time to change the belt because the old one looked like it had some miles on it. after chenging the belt car was perfect for couple of weeks. then my father in law got new spark plugs for it. again, it ran perfect for the next couple of days. after that he had a hard time starting it for the next couple of days but only in the morning. then on friday he said he had a hard time starting it in the morning and in the afternoon before and after work. finally it died last saturday and ever since then we've been trying to fix it but as you can see without success.

so tomorrow my job is to find a local mechanic that could look at it. problem is I would rather drop it off at some place where they know Subarus so at least they would know what the'ry doing and what to look for on the car. I've never owned Subaru in my life, not even my friends, so nobody knows of a good shop.

 

again, thank you all for all your help. will try more soon.

 

Matt

[Cougar]

An IACV is a idle air control valve. They can be a problem but not in this case. My best guess is the CAS sensor is not working like it should and replacing it hopefully will solve the problem. Nothing else will cause the ignition to do what it is doing except for what I mentioned previously.

[nipper]

IACV = idle air control valave. (cougar beat me to it)

a bad ecm engine temp sesnor will keep the car from starting

a bad crank and cam sensor will keep the car from starting.

if the cam sensor and crank sensors are grossly out of synch the car wont start (jumped timing)

the NSS or inhibitor switch only affects the starter.

Hard start when cold is indicitve normally of moisture getting into the ignition system. The voltage arcing out of the electrical system evaporates the moisture and the car starts.

 

 

nipper

[Mjez]

An IACV is a idle air control valve. They can be a problem but not in this case. My best guess is the CAS sensor is not working like it should and replacing it hopefully will solve the problem. Nothing else will cause the ignition to do what it is doing except for what I mentioned previously.

 

CAS? is it crank position sensor with different name?

[Mjez]

never mind, I think I just found an answer myself. crank angle sensor...

[PacMan]

I think "PEBBLES" was referring to the Ignition Relay. This thing is known to be a problem. If the contacts on this thing are badly burnt it will starve the ECU of power and the ECU won't run properly. Check the voltage on pins A2 and A13 of the ECU with the ignition switched ON. It should be within 0.5 volts of the battery voltage - if it's not then it's probably a faulty Ignition Relay. Make sure that the battery is fully charged when doing this work.

 

It seems like the car won't even fire although it's got gas in the cylinders - but it should fire even if only cyl 1 & 2 are sparking - unless of course, the timing was way off. The timing is controlled by the ECU. It should be possible to use a timing light to check if cylinder 1 is firing near top dead centre - even though the car won't start.

[Mjez]

IACV = idle air control valave. (cougar beat me to it)

a bad ecm engine temp sesnor will keep the car from starting

a bad crank and cam sensor will keep the car from starting.

if the cam sensor and crank sensors are grossly out of synch the car wont start (jumped timing)

the NSS or inhibitor switch only affects the starter.

Hard start when cold is indicitve normally of moisture getting into the ignition system. The voltage arcing out of the electrical system evaporates the moisture and the car starts.

 

 

nipper

 

I can't get to that temp sensor. I tried for a while and gave up. would it be easier to check it at the ECU? which pin gets input from that sensor? and would I be checking its resistance?

I replaced crank sensor with one from junkyard but still nothing. I also checked the timing again. both marks on both cam sprokets allign just fine. checked for tabs on crank sproket, all there.

going back to hard starts, father in law said he's never had to crank it so many times before as he was when this first started happening about a week ago.

I ran out of ideas and no longer want to work on this car... at least for now.

someone said to check ignition relay, again, would I be getting anything on one side of the ignition and nothing on the other if I have a bad ignition relay? could someone answer this for me, I don't know anymore. but I think I'll still measure the voltage at the ECU for that.

 

thanks

 

Matt

[Mjez]

I think "PEBBLES" was referring to the Ignition Relay. This thing is known to be a problem. If the contacts on this thing are badly burnt it will starve the ECU of power and the ECU won't run properly. Check the voltage on pins A2 and A13 of the ECU with the ignition switched ON. It should be within 0.5 volts of the battery voltage - if it's not then it's probably a faulty Ignition Relay. Make sure that the battery is fully charged when doing this work.

 

It seems like the car won't even fire although it's got gas in the cylinders - but it should fire even if only cyl 1 & 2 are sparking - unless of course, the timing was way off. The timing is controlled by the ECU. It should be possible to use a timing light to check if cylinder 1 is firing near top dead centre - even though the car won't start.

 

maybe I'm wrong, it says to check pin 2 and 13, pin 13 sends signal to ignitor. pin 13 is also the pin that has almost no voltage on it when cranking the motor... hmmm... will check it tomorrow morning. don't want to pi$$ off my neighbors which live above my garage...

thanks again

 

Matt

[brus brother]

Sorry I can't contribute but just wanted to compliment those who have. This post is like the Masters Tournament of Subie Diagnosis. Play on.

[9pec]

I have been reading this thread with great interest.

 

I fried the ignitor pack once on my Mitsu V6 after a spark-plug-change, even with the batter negative disconnected. Human budy carry static charge that is capable of frying transistor.

 

Static might have fried something half-dead during the timing belt change.

 

For reference, this is a Mitsu ignition system info, but Subaru has very similar waste-spark system :- http://www.stealth316.com/0-frames.htm:D

 

It seems one channel of the ignition still fires, but the other won't. While I have seen 3-cylinders engine runs rough with only 1 cylinder's ignition firing, at this juncture it should be reasonable to assume the problem is due to one ignition channel not firing.

 

Crank sensor sends weak pules of current that the ECU converts into voltage pulses. That's the first "trigger". These signal pulses trigger a pair of Mosfet-gate-drivers that in turn, drive/trigger the Ignitor pack, in an inverted fashion, that is, it switches off the ignitors to fire sparks.

 

Ignitor pack has 2 high current mosfet transistors that act as swicthes which connect the ground lead of the primary coils to ground. When the ignitor is at "on" stage, high current (probably 6-8 amps) goes from battery/fuse to primary coil, via the ignitor and then to ground. When you turn the key to "on", this coil-energising stage takes place but if you do not crank the car a timer will turn off the ignitor after a pre-set time. You can actually hear the coil energising once the key is switched to "on" position before cranking if you stick your ears closed to the coils.

 

When ECU trigger the ignitor to fire, the mosfet-gate-driver pulses from the ECU turn off the mosfet swicth in the ignitor and cut the primary coil circuit from ground. Primary coil voltage shoots to few hundred volts in a split second, and this get magnetically coupled to secondary coil and shoots to few kilo-volts. Electrons now jumps across 2 spark plugs' tips to ground/and ground to tips respectively in 2 cylinders. One cylinder is near its compression stroke, and one cylinder is in exhaust stroke ("wasted spark").

 

I have always confused myself with EJ20's cylinder numbering system, so I must make it clear that I am assuming that when we are talking about cylinder 1-2 and 3-4 we are accepting that the cylinder pairs are the right pair. I say this because in a waste spark system, if a particular cylinder has no spark the other cylinder will have no spark as well since they are electricly in the same loop.

 

Seeing that we have one channel still firing, I suggest pulling out the ignitor-to-coil connector and use jumper wires to swap the 2 channels.

 

If we have spark in the other pars of cylinder after the swap, at least we know the ignitor, coils, spark cable, spark plugs are all fine. (note :- strong spark in free air doesn't mean good spark in compression-chamber, pressure and fuel make it harder to form spark).

 

Again, we can try swapping the channels at ignitor-to-ECU connector to see if it is ECU having one channel fried, or the ignitor having one channel fried, or both having one channel fried!

 

Perhaps one of the ignitor or ECU's triggering is dead. I am no expert but my understanding is, if the crank sensor is faulty, then we will have no spark at all in all cylinders.

 

My Forester has so far not been giving me any electrical problem, only tons of suspension problem. I have no acess to any Subaru service manuals so please correct me if I said anything not applicable to Subaru's system. Just hoping to see Mjez nail the problem and get the car up and running soon.:cool:

[keltik]

Heres my 10 cents. Apologies if this obvious stuff has been suggested but quite often people cant see the wood for the trees. Have you checked your HT leads, the 2 plugs that arent sparking - are the plugs stuffed? And if your vehicle is a 95, cant you pull the codes?

 

As for tow truck bills, here in new zealand we either tow the dam thing ourselves, or get a mate with a nice big ute and a car trailer to lend a hand. Last i saw it cost $40 to hire a car trailer for the day from the local gas station. So maybe the best option here is to give the stealership or a good garage a crack at fixing it. It seems at the end of the day - all that poking around with volt meters has achieved is confusing us even more.

 

KELTIK