PLEASE HELP... car won't start...:(

[Pebbles]

where is it located? I'll check anything and everything now.

 

Matt

 

They are usauly located in the fuse box, or some were in the engine bay. It is handy to have a wiring digram.

[Cougar]

If I have read all the posts correctly, here is what we have up to now. First let me say that the problem we are trying to solve right now is why the ignition is not working (no spark) on cylinders 3 and 4. Other than the cam and crank sensors, there are no other engine sensors that need to be looked at since they are the only ones that can cause this kind of problem.

 

From previous tests done we have proved that the circuity is ok from the input of the ignitor to the plugs, including the two wires between the ECU and the ignitor. This leaves the ECU, the two sensors, and the cogs as the possibilities for the problem. We have also tried replacing the ECU with one of unknown condition that gave the same results.

 

PacMan suggested looking at the power to the ECU and I agree it is good to verify that it is ok. My reference gives me some different points to check for power though than from what he stated. My data shows that pins 15, 16, and 42 should be tied to power. It is interesting that power goes to pins 15 and 16. These are right next to the ignitor pins 13 and 14 and it appears 13 is the faulty pin connection that is causing the trouble since the voltage is 10 times lower than pin 14. Since these are mirrored circuits they should be the same. Matt, if your still with us, check the power to those 3 leads using a meter. Also check the connector for a problem, like a dirty contact, on those pins (13 thru 16).

 

Matt (I hope your still with us), you stated that you changed the crank sensor with no success. If you haven't changed out the cam sensor yet I would try that. Also check the polarity of the connections to the sensors. I read from another source that it makes a difference.

 

To 9pec: Great post about the ignition.

[1 Lucky Texan]

I now am left with just reading as there are folks involved with WAAAAY more experience than me - but I gotta say, based on reading this morning, it is imperative the plug wires/boots and plugs themselves be carefully inspected. Seems to me the wires/connectors could've been compromised such that it took a while for arcing to destroy them and MAYBE the coil pack or something.

 

I dunno - carry on

 

Carl

[Mjez]

I have been reading this thread with great interest.

 

I fried the ignitor pack once on my Mitsu V6 after a spark-plug-change, even with the batter negative disconnected. Human budy carry static charge that is capable of frying transistor.

 

Static might have fried something half-dead during the timing belt change.

 

For reference, this is a Mitsu ignition system info, but Subaru has very similar waste-spark system :- http://www.stealth316.com/0-frames.htm:D

 

It seems one channel of the ignition still fires, but the other won't. While I have seen 3-cylinders engine runs rough with only 1 cylinder's ignition firing, at this juncture it should be reasonable to assume the problem is due to one ignition channel not firing.

 

Crank sensor sends weak pules of current that the ECU converts into voltage pulses. That's the first "trigger". These signal pulses trigger a pair of Mosfet-gate-drivers that in turn, drive/trigger the Ignitor pack, in an inverted fashion, that is, it switches off the ignitors to fire sparks.

 

Ignitor pack has 2 high current mosfet transistors that act as swicthes which connect the ground lead of the primary coils to ground. When the ignitor is at "on" stage, high current (probably 6-8 amps) goes from battery/fuse to primary coil, via the ignitor and then to ground. When you turn the key to "on", this coil-energising stage takes place but if you do not crank the car a timer will turn off the ignitor after a pre-set time. You can actually hear the coil energising once the key is switched to "on" position before cranking if you stick your ears closed to the coils.

 

When ECU trigger the ignitor to fire, the mosfet-gate-driver pulses from the ECU turn off the mosfet swicth in the ignitor and cut the primary coil circuit from ground. Primary coil voltage shoots to few hundred volts in a split second, and this get magnetically coupled to secondary coil and shoots to few kilo-volts. Electrons now jumps across 2 spark plugs' tips to ground/and ground to tips respectively in 2 cylinders. One cylinder is near its compression stroke, and one cylinder is in exhaust stroke ("wasted spark").

 

I have always confused myself with EJ20's cylinder numbering system, so I must make it clear that I am assuming that when we are talking about cylinder 1-2 and 3-4 we are accepting that the cylinder pairs are the right pair. I say this because in a waste spark system, if a particular cylinder has no spark the other cylinder will have no spark as well since they are electricly in the same loop.

 

Seeing that we have one channel still firing, I suggest pulling out the ignitor-to-coil connector and use jumper wires to swap the 2 channels.

 

If we have spark in the other pars of cylinder after the swap, at least we know the ignitor, coils, spark cable, spark plugs are all fine. (note :- strong spark in free air doesn't mean good spark in compression-chamber, pressure and fuel make it harder to form spark).

 

Again, we can try swapping the channels at ignitor-to-ECU connector to see if it is ECU having one channel fried, or the ignitor having one channel fried, or both having one channel fried!

 

Perhaps one of the ignitor or ECU's triggering is dead. I am no expert but my understanding is, if the crank sensor is faulty, then we will have no spark at all in all cylinders.

 

My Forester has so far not been giving me any electrical problem, only tons of suspension problem. I have no acess to any Subaru service manuals so please correct me if I said anything not applicable to Subaru's system. Just hoping to see Mjez nail the problem and get the car up and running soon.:cool:

 

thanks 9pec for some useful info.

I already tried to fire the other channel and and it did just fine. I did it like you said it, jumper wires between ignitor-to-coil connector and the other side fired just fine.

I hate to give up on this car but at this moment I see no other option. I think I'm gonna go look for a shop that could juts get it working.

[Mjez]

Heres my 10 cents. Apologies if this obvious stuff has been suggested but quite often people cant see the wood for the trees. Have you checked your HT leads, the 2 plugs that arent sparking - are the plugs stuffed? And if your vehicle is a 95, cant you pull the codes?

 

As for tow truck bills, here in new zealand we either tow the dam thing ourselves, or get a mate with a nice big ute and a car trailer to lend a hand. Last i saw it cost $40 to hire a car trailer for the day from the local gas station. So maybe the best option here is to give the stealership or a good garage a crack at fixing it. It seems at the end of the day - all that poking around with volt meters has achieved is confusing us even more.

 

KELTIK

 

plugs are fine, I also tried pulling the codes off of it with negative result, light would not flash at all.

what's HT leads?

[nipper]

plugs are fine, I also tried pulling the codes off of it with negative result, light would not flash at all.

what's HT leads?

 

HIgh Tension leads = High Tension Wires = SPark Plug Wires

 

nipper

[Mjez]

I now am left with just reading as there are folks involved with WAAAAY more experience than me - but I gotta say, based on reading this morning, it is imperative the plug wires/boots and plugs themselves be carefully inspected. Seems to me the wires/connectors could've been compromised such that it took a while for arcing to destroy them and MAYBE the coil pack or something.

 

I dunno - carry on

 

Carl

 

I swapped cables to the firing side of coil and they work fine, I get a nice shinny spark out of all the cables.

[Mjez]

If I have read all the posts correctly, here is what we have up to now. First let me say that the problem we are trying to solve right now is why the ignition is not working (no spark) on cylinders 3 and 4. Other than the cam and crank sensors, there are no other engine sensors that need to be looked at since they are the only ones that can cause this kind of problem.

 

From previous tests done we have proved that the circuity is ok from the input of the ignitor to the plugs, including the two wires between the ECU and the ignitor. This leaves the ECU, the two sensors, and the cogs as the possibilities for the problem. We have also tried replacing the ECU with one of unknown condition that gave the same results.

 

PacMan suggested looking at the power to the ECU and I agree it is good to verify that it is ok. My reference gives me some different points to check for power though than from what he stated. My data shows that pins 15, 16, and 42 should be tied to power. It is interesting that power goes to pins 15 and 16. These are right next to the ignitor pins 13 and 14 and it appears 13 is the faulty pin connection that is causing the trouble since the voltage is 10 times lower than pin 14. Since these are mirrored circuits they should be the same. Matt, if your still with us, check the power to those 3 leads using a meter. Also check the connector for a problem, like a dirty contact, on those pins (13 thru 16).

 

Matt (I hope your still with us), you stated that you changed the crank sensor with no success. If you haven't changed out the cam sensor yet I would try that. Also check the polarity of the connections to the sensors. I read from another source that it makes a difference.

 

To 9pec: Great post about the ignition.

 

yes, yes, I'm still here. my father in law asked me yesterday to look for a local shop but I'm not ready to give-up yet.

thanks for some useful info. I'm going to garage now to see what I can find. Will check for power going to the ECU...

 

Matt

[Cougar]

Your a true fighter Matt. You have been through the ringer and are still fighting. Way to go.

 

I wish there was a way we could test the spare ECU. It may have the same problem as the original one but it would be a pretty remote chance I would venture. Hopefully you will come up with something with the voltage readings. If they are ok then I would try replacing the cam sensor since that is the only thing left that hasn't been changed.

 

I can think of one other test we could do on the ECU if you want to do that. We haven't checked the resistances looking back into the ECU on pins 13 and 14 and compared them. It may tell us if the ECU's are bad. Remove the plug to the ECU and with a digital meter check the resistances between pins 13 and 45(ground pin) and 14 and 45. You may have to use the diode setting to get a reading.

[1 Lucky Texan]

Something seems familiar about this problem. Does anyone else recall any threads where only 1/2 the cylinders were trying to fire? that's the part that seems like I've read it before - quite a while ago. Anyone good at advance searching?

 

I dunno

 

way to hang in there though!

 

Carl

[Mjez]

Your a true fighter Matt. You have been through the ringer and are still fighting. Way to go.

 

I wish there was a way we could test the spare ECU. It may have the same problem as the original one but it would be a pretty remote chance I would venture. Hopefully you will come up with something with the voltage readings. If they are ok then I would try replacing the cam sensor since that is the only thing left that hasn't been changed.

 

Cougar, I’ve been just thinking about the same thing, maybe the Subaru I found at the junkyard had a similar problem and owner decided it’s not worth fixing it so he just dumped it at local junkyard. After all the car I found has no body damages, interior also looks in good shape besides couple of panels removed from around gear selector. I didn’t remove timing belt covers off of it yet to see if maybe timing belt snapped. But the truth is that all the parts I’ve tried since the problem on my father’s in law car come from the car I found at junkyard, hmmm, what are the chances? I think we need good mathematician to answer that question.

Any way, I checked power coming to ECU and I get 12.22 volts on all 3 pins (15,16, and 42).

I just noticed something as I was trying to crank it just now. Security light goes off after I turn the ignition key to position 2 and as soon as I turn it further, to starting position, it’ll start flashing again. Does this mean anything?

Oh, I should also mention that the same day we replaced timing belt my father in law installed new radio in his car, could this have anything to do with it? I doubt it but you never know.

I’m concern now about that strange clicking noise when pressing gas pedal. As I mentioned earlier while I was trying to check TPS one of the wires came off of one of the pins on TPS connector and ever since I got high frequency clicking noise coming from the back of the motor or possibly automatic transmission whenever throttle is depressed. Isn’t TPS connected to AT? Could I mess up something on the transmission by this?

I’m thinking if it’s worth going back to that junkyard now to get the cam position sensor…

Matt

[1 Lucky Texan]

Cougar, I’ve been just thinking about the same thing, maybe the Subaru I found at the junkyard had a similar problem and owner decided it’s not worth fixing it so he just dumped it at local junkyard. After all the car I found has no body damages, interior also looks in good shape besides couple of panels removed from around gear selector. I didn’t remove timing belt covers off of it yet to see if maybe timing belt snapped. But the truth is that all the parts I’ve tried since the problem on my father’s in law car come from the car I found at junkyard, hmmm, what are the chances? I think we need good mathematician to answer that question.

Any way, I checked power coming to ECU and I get 12.22 volts on all 3 pins (15,16, and 42).

I just noticed something as I was trying to crank it just now. Security light goes off after I turn the ignition key to position 2 and as soon as I turn it further, to starting position, it’ll start flashing again. Does this mean anything?

Oh, I should also mention that the same day we replaced timing belt my father in law installed new radio in his car, could this have anything to do with it? I doubt it but you never know.

I’m concern now about that strange clicking noise when pressing gas pedal. As I mentioned earlier while I was trying to check TPS one of the wires came off of one of the pins on TPS connector and ever since I got high frequency clicking noise coming from the back of the motor or possibly automatic transmission whenever throttle is depressed. Isn’t TPS connected to AT? Could I mess up something on the transmission by this?

I’m thinking if it’s worth going back to that junkyard now to get the cam position sensor…

 

Matt

 

I've heard clicking from the IACV on a different car when the throttle is opened. Maybe normal?

 

Carl

[nipper]

Something seems familiar about this problem. Does anyone else recall any threads where only 1/2 the cylinders were trying to fire? that's the part that seems like I've read it before - quite a while ago. Anyone good at advance searching?

 

I dunno

 

way to hang in there though!

 

Carl

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=53724&highlight=spark

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=51888&highlight=spark

 

there are others, but they all say what we said here, so no need to repeat, and o none of them (20 pages worth) seem to have a magic bullit. i will assume though that since they stoped they got thier cars started.

Almost all coil or ignition problems are the pre 1990 subarus, and after that are cracked coils or what we said already. Only about 3 no spark posts.

 

nipper

[Cougar]

Cougar, I’ve been just thinking about the same thing, maybe the Subaru I found at the junkyard had a similar problem and owner decided it’s not worth fixing it so he just dumped it at local junkyard. After all the car I found has no body damages, interior also looks in good shape besides couple of panels removed from around gear selector. I didn’t remove timing belt covers off of it yet to see if maybe timing belt snapped. But the truth is that all the parts I’ve tried since the problem on my father’s in law car come from the car I found at junkyard, hmmm, what are the chances? I think we need good mathematician to answer that question.

Any way, I checked power coming to ECU and I get 12.22 volts on all 3 pins (15,16, and 42).

I just noticed something as I was trying to crank it just now. Security light goes off after I turn the ignition key to position 2 and as soon as I turn it further, to starting position, it’ll start flashing again. Does this mean anything?

Oh, I should also mention that the same day we replaced timing belt my father in law installed new radio in his car, could this have anything to do with it? I doubt it but you never know.

I’m concern now about that strange clicking noise when pressing gas pedal. As I mentioned earlier while I was trying to check TPS one of the wires came off of one of the pins on TPS connector and ever since I got high frequency clicking noise coming from the back of the motor or possibly automatic transmission whenever throttle is depressed. Isn’t TPS connected to AT? Could I mess up something on the transmission by this?

I’m thinking if it’s worth going back to that junkyard now to get the cam position sensor…

 

Matt

 

The TPS should be connected to the ECU. The clicking sound you are hearing may be coming from a relay possibly but I can't say for sure. None of the things you mentioned will cause the ignition problem you are having so I wouldn't bother trying to fix those things until this problem is solved.

 

If you could check the resistances of those ECU pins I mentioned in my last post it may help us out here.

 

To 1 LT:

From what I remember, it was from someone who broke off some of the tabs of the crank sensor cog.

 

Glen

[nipper]

Cougar, I’ve been just thinking about the same thing, maybe the Subaru I found at the junkyard had a similar problem and owner decided it’s not worth fixing it so he just dumped it at local junkyard. After all the car I found has no body damages, interior also looks in good shape besides couple of panels removed from around gear selector. I didn’t remove timing belt covers off of it yet to see if maybe timing belt snapped. But the truth is that all the parts I’ve tried since the problem on my father’s in law car come from the car I found at junkyard, hmmm, what are the chances? I think we need good mathematician to answer that question.

Any way, I checked power coming to ECU and I get 12.22 volts on all 3 pins (15,16, and 42).

I just noticed something as I was trying to crank it just now. Security light goes off after I turn the ignition key to position 2 and as soon as I turn it further, to starting position, it’ll start flashing again. Does this mean anything?

Oh, I should also mention that the same day we replaced timing belt my father in law installed new radio in his car, could this have anything to do with it? I doubt it but you never know.

I’m concern now about that strange clicking noise when pressing gas pedal. As I mentioned earlier while I was trying to check TPS one of the wires came off of one of the pins on TPS connector and ever since I got high frequency clicking noise coming from the back of the motor or possibly automatic transmission whenever throttle is depressed. Isn’t TPS connected to AT? Could I mess up something on the transmission by this?

I’m thinking if it’s worth going back to that junkyard now to get the cam position sensor…

 

Matt

 

Maybe find one that has been t boned or rear ended, that way you sort of know the car wasnt junked for a mechanical or electrical issue

 

nipper

[Mjez]

Maybe find one that has been t boned or rear ended, that way you sort of know the car wasnt junked for a mechanical or electrical issue

 

nipper

 

easy to say, this is the only Subaru i could find at this junkyard out of couple of hundred cars.

 

I'm reading now about similar problem on a VW with 2.2 ltr Subaru motor.

 

 

BTW, resistance if I'm not mistaking was just over 60 ohms, but I might double check that.

[1 Lucky Texan]

easy to say, this is the only Subaru i could find at this junkyard out of couple of hundred cars.

 

I'm reading now about similar problem on a VW with 2.2 ltr Subaru motor.

 

 

BTW, resistance if I'm not mistaking was just over 60 ohms, but I might double check that.

 

here's similar link. seems to point to a bent pin in a harness connector - I dunno

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=42239&highlight=neutral+safety+cylinders

 

 

Carl

[Cougar]

easy to say, this is the only Subaru i could find at this junkyard out of couple of hundred cars.

 

I'm reading now about similar problem on a VW with 2.2 ltr Subaru motor.

 

 

BTW, resistance if I'm not mistaking was just over 60 ohms, but I might double check that.

 

So the resistance was the same for both output pins? If so, then that would be encouraging to say the ECU is OK. Check the spare one also if you can.

 

This may mean the cam sensor is the culprit.

[Mjez]

So the resistance was the same for both output pins? If so, then that would be encouraging to say the ECU is OK. Check the spare one also if you can.

 

This may mean the cam sensor is the culprit.

 

just got back home from work, it almost felt like being on vacation after 4 days of fighting with subaru in the garage. anywa, going to the garage now to measure the resistance at ECU, if I could only remember which pins I'm suppose to check:confused: ...

[nipper]

SO what the record for the most pages on a thread?

 

 

nipper

 

i even forgot what year car you haave, to respond i need two windows open, one to refer back to so dont feel bad.

 

nipper

[Mjez]

So the resistance was the same for both output pins? If so, then that would be encouraging to say the ECU is OK. Check the spare one also if you can.

 

This may mean the cam sensor is the culprit.

 

ok, here it is. resistance between pins 45-13 and pins 45-14 on original ECU is arround 1.45 Mohms. but on the other ECU I got from junkyard is close to 5 Mohms on the same pins. makes me wonder which of the two ECUs is the bad one. shouldn't those readings be the same or at least close? maybe I'll have couple of minues before I go to work tomorrow to go to junk yard and pick up cam-position-sensor. I'm really tired of this project already and I have so many other things I should be doing now...

 

Matt

[Mjez]

couple more things I don't think I told you about.

this car had spark plugs replaced 2 or 3 days before it started happening, could bad spark plug cause ECU mulfanction, or something else than ECU? we're now back to the original spark plugs that came with the car.

also, main fuse relay located in driver's footwell was burned. not only burned but more like melted actually. does this mean anything ???

 

Matt

 

BTW. I'm not trying to produce record long post here, just want this car to start and run...

[Cougar]

couple more things I don't think I told you about.

this car had spark plugs replaced 2 or 3 days before it started happening, could bad spark plug cause ECU mulfanction, or something else than ECU? we're now back to the original spark plugs that came with the car.

also, main fuse relay located in driver's footwell was burned. not only burned but more like melted actually. does this mean anything ???

 

Matt

 

BTW. I'm not trying to produce record long post here, just want this car to start and run...

 

It is a little strange that the resistance readings between the two ECUs is different. More important though is that the readings are the same for each unit. This is a pretty good indicator that the sections are ok. It isn't a for sure thing but it is encouraging. The only thing left to do, in my mind at least, is to replace the cam sensor. It is the only thing we haven't tried yet and is last piece of the puzzle as far as I know.

 

My hat is off to you Matt for your patience. It is pretty easy to sit here and type things on what to do but it is another to really do them. If you do replace the cam sensor I really hope it gets the car going. This has been one of the biggest problems I have helped with here and we still don't have the answer.

 

As far as the new plugs go, I don't think they can cause this kind of thing. You have proved the ignition components are good and they would be the things damaged if the plugs did something like that.

[Mjez]

Something just came to me as I was sitting at the garage looking at dead Subaru. Two or so weeks ago, few days after timing belt was replaced I took this car down to Chicago to have rear tires installed. On the way there and back home I noticed how bad the acceleration was, especially when throttle was more than 50 % open. I told about this to my father in law and he said that he noticed some jerking when pulling from dead stop, like at traffic light or stop when he gave it more gas, but not all the time, only at times. It almost felt as if the more gas I gave it the slower it wanted to go. I first thought that we needed to change the transmission fluid because it does not want to shift down, even though it felt like it wanted to, or at least supposed to shift down a gear. Now when I think about it I think that it wasn’t firing on all of the cylinders. Interestingly, the check engine light would not come on at all. Car’s acceleration was so bad that I’ll bet you I would need like close to a minute to get to 100 MPH. It took it forever to pass someone at highway speeds. How could I not remember this??? I guess that’s what happens when you drive a car like maybe once every two months. Last time I drove it before this was when we had snow on the roads and only to see how it handled. Not much traction then so maybe I didn’t noticed it back then, or maybe it didn’t have this problem. But as far as I remember it always felt sluggish to me, not as bad as the last time I drove it though.

Also, remember when I said I hear high frequency clicking noise coming from back of the motor or transmission when I manually turn throttle position or press accelerator. It only does it when it’s about 1/3 way open and continues all the way until fully open. Could these two be related somehow?

Time to go to bed now, this will give you and myself something to think about. Will be back tomorrow… oops… today, to find out what did everyone come up with. This almost sounds like never-ending story. Truth is that it’s sitting in my garage and taking up space.

Thank you all again

Matt

[Cougar]

Also, remember when I said I hear high frequency clicking noise coming from back of the motor or transmission when I manually turn throttle position or press accelerator. It only does it when it’s about 1/3 way open and continues all the way until fully open. Could these two be related somehow?

 

Thank you all again

 

Matt

 

The only thing I can think this may be is a relay but whatever it is I don't think it has any bearing on the ignition problem.

 

I forgot about the fuse problem you stated. It would be good to know what fuse this is. From the sounds of your description of the trouble I would say that the fuse holder connections were not making good contact and the high current through the resistance there caused excessive heat. You may have to replace that fuse position with a external fuse holder. Please let me know what the fuse position is so I can trace the circuit and see what is being powered on this leg.