KNIGHTRIDER Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 I have a 1987 Subaru GL-10 4WD Turbo. THe previous owner had A/C work done. The thing I didn't know was the R12 fiasco or else I would have asked him on the spot. But now I don't have any way of contacting him. I would like to know if it still is an R12 or if he converted it to an R134A system. Is there any tests that I can do to determine which one is in there??? Please help me thanks. And also where are exactly the A/C parts in the engine?? Thanks, KNIGHTRIDER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfire Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 I have a 1987 Subaru GL-10 4WD Turbo. THe previous owner had A/C work done. The thing I didn't know was the R12 fiasco or else I would have asked him on the spot. But now I don't have any way of contacting him. I would like to know if it still is an R12 or if he converted it to an R134A system. Is there any tests that I can do to determine which one is in there??? Please help me thanks. And also where are exactly the A/C parts in the engine?? Thanks, KNIGHTRIDER i could be wrong. others please feel free to correct me. the r-12 fittings on the a/c hoses two fittings hi and low side. the r-12 fittings are screw on and the 134a fittings are like air compressor. pull back and clamp on. i hope this helps you out. Ken:headbang: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skishop69 Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 Ken is correct. R-12 fittings are small and threaded, R134A fittings are larger and not threaded. Without jury-rigging charging hoses it's pretty hard to put in the wrong freon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KNIGHTRIDER Posted June 11, 2006 Author Share Posted June 11, 2006 First, thank you both for your help. Ok, this may be asking for too much, but by any chance can anyone show me by pictures to show exactly what I am looking for??? And anybody have ideas where I can get an R134A conversion/retrofit kit??? THANKS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobs Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 You can purchase conversion kits at any auto parts store. Something you might want to check into is using a hydrocarbon refrigerant instead. There are commercially available hydrocarbon refrigerants available from refrigeration suppliers or you can use a propane/butane mix. From what I've read on the internet, this is widely used in Europe and Australia and performs better than the old R12 and a lot better than R134A. Some states have laws against using propane as a refrigerant however I don't think it would be any more hazardous than a fuel system propane conversion or worse a natural gas conversion where the gas is stored at 3000psi in the fuel tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 propane? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobs Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Propane was widely used as a refrigerant back in the 1930's until there was a school fire caused by a leaking air conditioner and resulted in some deaths. That's when some states outlawed it's use. I've never used it but from what I've read, it's a very good refrigerant. A couple of years ago, rumors were the Japanese was planing to use it on all their new cars. R134A is very toxic. The US Air force did some human tests a few years back and found the gas almost killed their subjects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oronocova Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I was looking into this recently for my justy, which is also R12. Took it to a shop and he was using "Freeze-12" which according to this guy works with R12 just fine. Supposidly you are not supposed to mix 134 and R12, but I know of people that have. At any rate, this Freeze-12 is available online with a quick search on froogle.google.com or ebay.com you'll turn up some results. Mine is still charged from what the shop put in it but if I have to fool with it again I am going to look into the Freeze-12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KNIGHTRIDER Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 With freeze 12 do I still have to empty the system and clean the oils and buy a conversion kit and all??? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobs Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 With freeze 12 do I still have to empty the system and clean the oils and buy a conversion kit and all??? Thanks. I believe Freeze 12 is a hydrocarbon refrigerant and if it is, it is compatible with R12 and the original oil. If you have a set of R12 charging hoses and gauges, you can just adapt a small propane cylinder and charge your system. In my opinion it will be much safer than using R134A and cheaper than Freeze 12. BTW propane is compatible with R12 from what I've read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oronocova Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Check out freeze12.com I don't believe it is hydrocarbon based because it isn't flammable, however it is made to work with / replace R-12. I was just checking on ebay and you can get a kit with the fittings to convert over from R-12 and some cans of Freeze12 for less than 50 bucks, which is quite a bit cheaper than their website. Check out item 8075395174. I'm probably going to go for one of these on ebay in the near future as mine has leaked down again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skishop69 Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Hydrocarbon refrigerants !!!... R134A killing subjects!!!... I think me head is going to explode. Let me clear some things up. I have been certified ( at the state and national levels) to work on AC systems for almost 15 years. DO NOT use hydrocarbon refrigerants. First off because they are highly explosive. They didn't stop using it beause of a 'few' accidents, they stopped using it because of the SIGNIFICANT loss of life and property often associated with with huge fiery explosions. (the latter being a minor exaggeration) Seriously, the stuff is dangerous no matter how well maintained the system is. Secondly, it is ILLEGAL in almost every state to use hydracarbon refrigerant.( thus the Japanese won't be using it) Notice I said USE not sell. Because of the 'grey' area, these guys can keep making it and selling it. Refrigerants like Frigifreeze and other off brands should likewise be avoided. They are often a mixture of different freons and hydrocarbons. Mixing refrigerants and hydrocarbons increases the possibility for flamage. Using hydrocarbons without changing to special hose, will cause your original hose to be eaten form the inside out. (what happens when you run gas through a vacuum line for extended periods?) Now that I'm done with that... R134A is NOT highly toxic. Yes, all forms of refrigerant are toxic to a degree, but 134 is actually the safest one to date. Exactly how much were their subjects subjected to? It would take 2 - 3 minutes of inhaling straight refrigerant before any serious (near death) effects would be noted. Continuous long term exposure would also have risks. But since most of us are smart enough not to snort refrigerant from the can or stand over the engine bay with a leaking AC system, the health risks are negligeable at best. I'm not trying flame anyone here, but the fact remains you either need to recharge with R12 made by Dupont or another large reputable company ( $80 -$90/lb) or spend the money for the conversion (which will usually be about the same price) to R134A. The kits run about $40. It consists of two adapter fittings for the high and low charge ports and new O-rings and gaskets for the hose fittings. Once it's done, you can always use the 134 if something happens to the system. (134 being about $40/lb) R12 is in thelatter stages of being phased out. I can't remember the exact date, but in a few years no one will be making it. (federal mandate) Spending a few more bucks and being temporarily unhappy is better than 'budget buying' and being a crispy critter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Sub4WD Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I converted my system over a year ago to envirosafe, a newer refrigerant that is more efficent at refrigeration than R-12 or R-134a, is compatible with your existing mineral oil (better lubricant, and therefore longer compressor life), and does not become acidic under high pressure in presence of moisture (like other refrigerants do) - in other words, it beats the heck out of either the R12 or R134a option - it also has a much higher flash point than R-134a, and you wont make phosgene gas or anything dangerous like that with it accidentally (you can with R12) - you can read more about it here: http://www.btt.org/ES.html there are many other refrigerants out there too - I suggest you look carefully over all of them - I am mentioning envirosafe specifically, because I have worked with it before, and with great success (Ive not done anything to my AC system in the past year - except use it!!!), Im sure there are many others that are just as good, if not better - my suggestion is - get out there and look around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobs Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Hydrocarbon refrigerants !!!... R134A killing subjects!!!... I think me head is going to explode. Let me clear some things up. I have been certified ( at the state and national levels) to work on AC systems for almost 15 years. DO NOT use hydrocarbon refrigerants. First off because they are highly explosive. They didn't stop using it beause of a 'few' accidents, they stopped using it because of the SIGNIFICANT loss of life and property often associated with with huge fiery explosions. (the latter being a minor exaggeration) Seriously, the stuff is dangerous no matter how well maintained the system is. Secondly, it is ILLEGAL in almost every state to use hydracarbon refrigerant.( thus the Japanese won't be using it) Notice I said USE not sell. Because of the 'grey' area, these guys can keep making it and selling it. Refrigerants like Frigifreeze and other off brands should likewise be avoided. They are often a mixture of different freons and hydrocarbons. Mixing refrigerants and hydrocarbons increases the possibility for flamage. Using hydrocarbons without changing to special hose, will cause your original hose to be eaten form the inside out. (what happens when you run gas through a vacuum line for extended periods?) Now that I'm done with that... R134A is NOT highly toxic. Yes, all forms of refrigerant are toxic to a degree, but 134 is actually the safest one to date. Exactly how much were their subjects subjected to? It would take 2 - 3 minutes of inhaling straight refrigerant before any serious (near death) effects would be noted. Continuous long term exposure would also have risks. But since most of us are smart enough not to snort refrigerant from the can or stand over the engine bay with a leaking AC system, the health risks are negligeable at best. I'm not trying flame anyone here, but the fact remains you either need to recharge with R12 made by Dupont or another large reputable company ( $80 -$90/lb) or spend the money for the conversion (which will usually be about the same price) to R134A. The kits run about $40. It consists of two adapter fittings for the high and low charge ports and new O-rings and gaskets for the hose fittings. Once it's done, you can always use the 134 if something happens to the system. (134 being about $40/lb) R12 is in thelatter stages of being phased out. I can't remember the exact date, but in a few years no one will be making it. (federal mandate) Spending a few more bucks and being temporarily unhappy is better than 'budget buying' and being a crispy critter. In my previous post, I was only attempting to offer POSSIBLE alternatives. I personally have not tried hydrocarbon refrigerants. I've just read about them on other web sites. I encourage anyone thinking about them to do their own research. My question I still have is is hydrocarbon refrigerants any more dangerous than a propane fuel system conversion or a compressed natural gas conversion? I personally have performed many compressed natural gas (CNG) conversions on American manufactured pickups. These systems fully fueled contain 3000 psi. As I recall, R134A is flammable, and is labeled as such. I realize most air conditioner leaks occur in the engine compartment but if a R134A leak occurs in the evaporator, you will get a very heavy dose of it in the cockpit. I personally will live without air conditioning before I EVER use R134A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skishop69 Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 As refrigerants, they are more dangerous than a propane converted engine. The kits you get to convert contain special hoses, metering devices and regulators. Most of the set-ups I have seen have the pressure regulated way down from the 3000psi tank pressure before they hit the engine compartment. Because the system was engineered for this, the danger is minimal. Since U.S. AC systems were not designed for use with hydrocarbons, you will have a system failure (not IF, WHEN) and that's where the trouble lies. I have seen two cars come in on the hook, one a total and the other very close, because they went hydrocarbon on their AC. I have no problem driving or owning a propane conversion, it's safe. I would never use hydro AC refrig. As for a leak at the EVAP core, you are correct. You will get a dose, however the leak would have to be gross. Just poinint out the hazzards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobs Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Most of the set-ups I have seen have the pressure regulated way down from the 3000psi tank pressure before they hit the engine compartment. quote] The CNG conversions I personally have done used 1/8" stainless steel line from the tank to the engine compartment. At that point (in the engine compartment), the pressure was reduced from 3000 psi to 200 psi. I was trained by and performed these conversions on Public Service Company of Colorado (now Excel Energy) vehicles in Denver, Colorado. This is the local utility that supplies natural gas and electricity to much of Colorado. To the best of my knowledge, they never had any problems with fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobs Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 For more information on hydracarbon refrigerants as to their safety, use in Europe and the politics surrounding it's use in the U.S. , see http://yarchive.net/ac/politics.html We've been duped here in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Hi, Something i'm not clear about with the R134 kits. On a basically good system with R12 in it, do you pull a vacume on it before dumping the charge? I haven't done HVAC in years...I worked almost exclusively with R22. Thanks, Doug Hydrocarbon refrigerants !!!... R134A killing subjects!!!... I think me head is going to explode. Let me clear some things up. I have been certified ( at the state and national levels) to work on AC systems for almost 15 years. DO NOT use hydrocarbon refrigerants. First off because they are highly explosive. They didn't stop using it beause of a 'few' accidents, they stopped using it because of the SIGNIFICANT loss of life and property often associated with with huge fiery explosions. (the latter being a minor exaggeration) Seriously, the stuff is dangerous no matter how well maintained the system is. Secondly, it is ILLEGAL in almost every state to use hydracarbon refrigerant.( thus the Japanese won't be using it) Notice I said USE not sell. Because of the 'grey' area, these guys can keep making it and selling it. Refrigerants like Frigifreeze and other off brands should likewise be avoided. They are often a mixture of different freons and hydrocarbons. Mixing refrigerants and hydrocarbons increases the possibility for flamage. Using hydrocarbons without changing to special hose, will cause your original hose to be eaten form the inside out. (what happens when you run gas through a vacuum line for extended periods?) Now that I'm done with that... R134A is NOT highly toxic. Yes, all forms of refrigerant are toxic to a degree, but 134 is actually the safest one to date. Exactly how much were their subjects subjected to? It would take 2 - 3 minutes of inhaling straight refrigerant before any serious (near death) effects would be noted. Continuous long term exposure would also have risks. But since most of us are smart enough not to snort refrigerant from the can or stand over the engine bay with a leaking AC system, the health risks are negligeable at best. I'm not trying flame anyone here, but the fact remains you either need to recharge with R12 made by Dupont or another large reputable company ( $80 -$90/lb) or spend the money for the conversion (which will usually be about the same price) to R134A. The kits run about $40. It consists of two adapter fittings for the high and low charge ports and new O-rings and gaskets for the hose fittings. Once it's done, you can always use the 134 if something happens to the system. (134 being about $40/lb) R12 is in thelatter stages of being phased out. I can't remember the exact date, but in a few years no one will be making it. (federal mandate) Spending a few more bucks and being temporarily unhappy is better than 'budget buying' and being a crispy critter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skishop69 Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 No, recover R12 first, then pull a vacumm. Min. 28". Then disassemble and install kit. Re-assemble and pull a vacuum again. Same min. Watch the guages for 15 minutes. There should be no more than a 1" - 2" drop. If it holds, recharge the correct amout of 134A. God I love a good conspiracy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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