JimmyJam Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 1996 Legacy 2.2L 366k I got onto the highway yesterday and I had a sudden drop in power, moved over to the shoulder and it stalled. When I tried to start it back up, it cranks well but does not start. I figured timing belt since I have not replaced it since I bought it (172K+ miles). I pulled off the cover to take a look at the belt and it was not broke but looked Horrible (holes and cracking). So I had it towed to a random shop to have it looked at. The mechanic called me back and said my engine was done. He did a compression test and said it was VERY low in all but one cylinder. Thats the only thing he did though. He said it would cost $175 to check out the timing belt and that I would be wasting my money because he believed it was done. So what do I do???? Trash the car? Rebuild? Get a second opinion? [Main Question]Could it be the Timing belt?? Would a slipped belt cause low compression and a no start situation??? Is it a head gasket? The engine has been getting warm (3/4temp) off and on because of a dead radiator fan. I have been keeping the heat on to keep the temps low. Any other ideas? I need to decide in the next day so any advice would be greatly appreciated. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 1996 Legacy 2.2L 366kI got onto the highway yesterday and I had a sudden drop in power, moved over to the shoulder and it stalled. When I tried to start it back up, it cranks well but does not start. I figured timing belt since I have not replaced it since I bought it (172K+ miles). I pulled off the cover to take a look at the belt and it was not broke but looked Horrible (holes and cracking). So I had it towed to a random shop to have it looked at. The mechanic called me back and said my engine was done. He did a compression test and said it was VERY low in all but one cylinder. Thats the only thing he did though. He said it would cost $175 to check out the timing belt and that I would be wasting my money because he believed it was done. So what do I do???? Trash the car? Rebuild? Get a second opinion? [Main Question]Could it be the Timing belt?? Would a slipped belt cause low compression and a no start situation??? Is it a head gasket? The engine has been getting warm (3/4temp) off and on because of a dead radiator fan. I have been keeping the heat on to keep the temps low. Any other ideas? I need to decide in the next day so any advice would be greatly appreciated. Jim you cant do a compression test with a bad timing belt. I doubt you are done as the 2.2 is not an interfernce engine. you need a timing belt. The timing belt controls the valve timing. the valves need to close to make compression. The guy just doesnt want to work on the car. Its very rare for a sooby to just quit and die without doing something else first. Find a new shop or do it yourself. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyJam Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 you cant do a compression test with a bad timing belt. I doubt you are done as the 2.2 is not an interfernce engine. you need a timing belt. The timing belt controls the valve timing. the valves need to close to make compression. The guy just doesnt want to work on the car. Its very rare for a sooby to just quit and die without doing something else first. Find a new shop or do it yourself. nipper Thank for the quick response. You also put my mind at ease. Thanks. So even if the timing belt is Not broke in half but in bad shape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Thank for the quick response. You also put my mind at ease. Thanks. So even if the timing belt is Not broke in half but in bad shape? (mumbles abd things about the internet) You need a new belt. The old belt wont hold time. You also neeed a new tensioner, and replace the waterpump, oil pump seals, cam and main seal and your good to go for another 60-100K miles nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2X2KOB Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 The last timing belt failure I saw wasn't a broken belt, it was that the teeth stripped off the belt where it passes the crank sprocket. Sounds like yours is pretty far gone, but not broken. Try turning the engine over while observing the belt and cams and see if it all spins, or just the crank turns. You can turn the engine with the starter or a wrench in the front at the crank pulley or if it's a manual trans, put it in gear and shove it a little bit. There are other things that should be done when changing a timing belt - do a search for older threads, it's been discussed many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 You need a new belt. The old belt wont hold time. You also neeed a new tensioner, and replace the waterpump, oil pump seals, cam and main seal and your good to go for another 60-100K miles Agreed! Also, good that it's a '96, because the 97 2.2 wasn't non-interference. See http://www.endwrench.com/pdf/engine/FtEngineOverhaulSp98.pdf for lots of info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 um.. i'm suprised that no one's comented on the fact that this car has 366 thousand miles on it.... wow, even if it IS dead, it had a great life! sorry, no worthwhile bits of wisdom, but GOOD LUCK!! GET IT TO 500K! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fnlyfnd Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 ...or the 172k without changing the timing belt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMattyD Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 He might be trying to get you to give up on the car and sell it to him at a low, low, price, so he can fix it and keep it for himself!! What nipper said is right.. If the timing belt is off, the compression values are suspect, and the first thing to do is replace the timing belt. It is not too difficult a job. Even I have done it... If the car was working fine up to that point, I don't think it has serious compression issues. It is more likely that the timing belt slipped and screwed up the valve timing, causing a sudden loss of power, possibly backfiring, etc, or a no-run situation. Matt D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmanaenk Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 (mumbles abd things about the internet) You need a new belt. The old belt wont hold time. You also neeed a new tensioner, and replace the waterpump, oil pump seals, cam and main seal and your good to go for another 60-100K miles nipper Is there a way to check compression without timing belt? If there is, I would do it before investing into all of above. No point in getting all that done only to discover that the first mechanic was right at least partially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerFahrer Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I would also try to keep it going, but if something did happen internally, don't be disappointed. I'd say 90% of all cars on the road, in the whole world, will never see 300k. You must have the timing belt installed properly to do a compression test, otherwise the valves cannot close at TDC. It's possible your timing belt jumped enough where the engine won't run, without actually breaking. Did it have a CEL before? Maybe something electrical related? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Is there a way to check compression without timing belt? If there is, I would do it before investing into all of above. No point in getting all that done only to discover that the first mechanic was right at least partially. nope there is no way thats easy to descirbe, and ist actually eaiser to put a new belt on the car and set the timing then to do it the other way. Is there any other reason the shop gave you for a dead engine. I truly dont belevie its dead nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Is there a way to check compression without timing belt?[...] Not really, since the timing belt is what synchronizes the valve opening/closing with the piston position for each cylinder. You could do a cylinder leakdown test, but it would require manually turning the crankshaft and camshafts so that each cylinder's piston in turn was at TDC (Top Dead Center) at the end of a compression stroke (or you could say beginning of a power stroke) with both intake and exhaust valves closed. If you're not precisely at TDC, the crank could want to turn from the cylinder pressure, so you might have to prevent that from happening or try several times. By then you'd have done about as much work as changing the t-belt . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyJam Posted June 21, 2006 Author Share Posted June 21, 2006 Thank you everybody for your great advice, I really appreciate it. Here is my question...because of the slight possibility the engine is done, I don't want to put a lot of money into it so, is it possible to put just a T-belt on and skip some of the other procedures(tensioner, water pump, seals, etc.) for now? You know, for testing purposes. I wouldn't mind doing it all twice. I'm probably gonna get it towed to my house and work on it since I don't trust that mechanic. Other than that, where can I get the specialty tools(Crankshaft Pulley wrench, etc), dealer or Autozone, Pepboys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Thank you everybody for your great advice, I really appreciate it. Here is my question...because of the slight possibility the engine is done, I don't want to put a lot of money into it so, is it possible to put just a T-belt on and skip some of the other procedures(tensioner, water pump, seals, etc.) for now? You know, for testing purposes. I wouldn't mind doing it all twice. I'm probably gonna get it towed to my house and work on it since I don't trust that mechanic. Other than that, where can I get the specialty tools(Crankshaft Pulley wrench, etc), dealer or Autozone, Pepboys. For testing puposes, yes you can skip everything, but dont let the car start with out replacing the tensioner. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Here is my question...because of the slight possibility the engine is done, I don't want to put a lot of money into it so, is it possible to put just a T-belt on and skip some of the other procedures(tensioner, water pump, seals, etc.) for now? You know, for testing purposes. I wouldn't mind doing it all twice. Yes, I suppose you could just put on the t-belt "for testing purposes". I'd at least first make sure that the tensioner and water pump operate freely and wouldn't damage the new belt. But I may have to take back what I said above; if you're willing to go through all that work twice, maybe you should do a cylinder leakdown test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Yes, I suppose you could just put on the t-belt "for testing purposes". I'd at least first make sure that the tensioner and water pump operate freely and wouldn't damage the new belt. But I may have to take back what I said above; if you're willing to go through all that work twice, maybe you should do a cylinder leakdown test. If he has compressed air and the fittings. How much you want to bet with a new timing belt this puppy just fires up. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 If he has compressed air and the fittings. How much you want to bet with a new timing belt this puppy just fires up. I'm not taking the bet; I agree, a non-interference model probably would. Although I do have the proper tools, you'd be surprised what an old spark plug, a short piece of metal tubing, some epoxy, a bicycle pump and a hose clamp can accomplish . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 I'm not taking the bet; I agree, a non-interference model probably would. Although I do have the proper tools, you'd be surprised what an old spark plug, a short piece of metal tubing, some epoxy, a bicycle pump and a hose clamp can accomplish . i know there is a good joke there some place nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fnlyfnd Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 No joke, he is Richard Dean Anderson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 can't you check the timing with a light before you go to the expense and labor of replacing the belt??? He might be trying to get you to give up on the car and sell it to him at a low, low, price, so he can fix it and keep it for himself!! What nipper said is right.. If the timing belt is off, the compression values are suspect, and the first thing to do is replace the timing belt. It is not too difficult a job. Even I have done it... If the car was working fine up to that point, I don't think it has serious compression issues. It is more likely that the timing belt slipped and screwed up the valve timing, causing a sudden loss of power, possibly backfiring, etc, or a no-run situation. Matt D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fnlyfnd Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 The light thing is for old school cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 i know there is a good joke there some place Desperate situations sometimes call for desperate solutions. No joke, he is Richard Dean Anderson. No, but I play MacGyver on USMB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 slap a new belt on and see what happens. i'm with nipper, the car will likely fire up just fine. while the belt is off, take a good look and spin each pulley/idler for the timing belt and see if any are seized or noisey. any that don't feel tight and smooth you should be thinking about replacing in the near future. you can do a leak down test without the timing belt in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 can't you check the timing with a light before you go to the expense and labor of replacing the belt??? Checking the timing isn't the issue. A damaged t-belt could cause lack of synchronization between the crankshaft and camshafts. If the engine is an interference-type design, that can result in piston crowns and valves trying to occupy the same space at the same time. Without getting into relativity theory , this usually leads to bent valves or worse. Compression or leakdown testing is how it's determined if things are still sealing correctly. Since the engine is a '96 2.2l, it shouldn't have an interference problem; even if valves are open with the pistons at TDC, they won't hit. The thing that seems to have gotten this discussion started was the mechanic's claim that there was almost no compression on all but one cylinder. As has already been stated, you can't do a compression test when the valve timing doesn't relate to crank/piston position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.