Have any of you had this problem with a 2005 Outback?

[RJC]

I bought my wife a brand new 2005 Subaru Outback (basic model) one year ago. The car has 19,500 miles on it. This is her fifth Subaru, as she has owned only Subarus in the last 20 years.

I present this question because it involves the EXACT situation that existed when she owned her last Subaru--a 2000 Legacy wagon-- except for the timing of the event. I'll explain.

Her 2000 Legacy (which she traded in as the automatic transmission went at 140,000) started to emit a smell of antifreeze beginning when it had about 60,000 miles on it. She would park the car in the garage and I would smell a strong odor of antifreeze coming from under the hood. However, I would never see any antifreeze! I commented to her though, on a regular basis that there was something wrong with her car. I brought it to the Subaru dealer and was told that the head was NOT cracked nor was the seal leaking. Yet, the smell continued, and I KNEW there was a major problem.

That went on for months. Finally, months later, when the car had 90,000 on it I received a defect notice in the mail stating that there was an antifreeze problem in the 2000 legacy model that required us to bring the vehicle to the dealer to get "repaired" (i.e. have a bottle of special solution added to the cooling system). The engine warranty was increased to 1000,000 miles according to the notice.

******So, I come to this present issue having had that prior experience. Now, the same thing is happening, but rather than smelling the antifreeze odor (it is DEFINITELY an antifreeze odor!) at a time when the car has been driven tens of thousands of miles, it began as soon as the car had no more than 1,000 miles on it!!

On four--maybe five, occasions I have brought the car to the dealer where it was purchased and informed them of the strong smell of the antifreeze. That was my only "complaint" when I brought the car in the first two times, but I also mentioned that oncoming issue each occasion when the car was brought in for other matters.

Each time I mentioned this issue to the dealer they would say that there is no leak and the smell that I smell is normal. The first three times I brought it in--when the car had less than 10,000 miles, I was told that "those are new car smells as there are many chemicals on and around the engine that take a great deal of time to burn away". Naturally, I did not believe that. I have a new 2005 car (a different make), I've had other brand new cars, and I’ve been around many, many brand new cars 2while being operated and I’ve never smelled antifreeze or other "chemicals that take time to burn away".

Now I realize that except for the first time I brought the car into the dealer, my repair orders have NEVER had anything stated on them to reflect the fact that I had complained of am antifreeze smell coming from under the hood! They simply failed (for some reason) to note on the repair order the antifreeze issue. So, if I brought the car in for an oil change, and at that time said, I am still smelling a strong antifreeze odor I thing there really is a problem, please look into it, I would get the repair order back stating "oil change" and nothing about the antifreeze issue, other than a personal comment at the time of payment that "there is nothing wrong with the engine, the smell is normal".

Well, the smell is NOT normal!! I should not be continually smelling a distinct odor of antifreeze coming from the car either while it is running (standing outside the car, not inside), or after parking it and getting out. However, there really is no evidence of antifreeze leaks, so I am mystified. This is exactly what happened with the 2000 legacy, except this is happening to the 2005 from the outset whereas the 2000 didn't manifest the problem until about 60,000 miles or so.

So, of all you forum members who are experts on Subarus, I ask, "What in the world is going on here?" And I have really NO evidence that this has been a continuing issue, as the dealer never provided any record of my having expressed this concern on each of the many occasions I brought the car into the shop!

I don't like the situation, and I am positive that something is not right, but I don't know what! The dealer keeps saying "it's normal", or it's "just the new car smell", or "it's the chemicals burning off and it takes a real long time for all of them to burn away". Well, I don't believe that, it's that simple!

Any help from you forum members will be sincerely appreciated.

Thanks,

 

RJC

[ericem]

You know what my parents had an issue with there 93 Leg after they changed the tranny fluid thing all started to go wrong, didnt shift to 4th gear, and slow 4wd reaction. My parents spent like 3000 4th gear was fixed then they said the awd problem is fixed, everytime in the winter there was a loud bang in the back when the car was kicking in to 4wd, and subaru said this was normal(time and place 1995 100,000KM Trento SUbaru) so we kept argueing over and over again, and made no note or file. In the end it became a FWD car. Then we were pissed so we then thought lets try another dealer ship, and of course they fixed it for free. SO what im suggesting is try a different dealer, and try one that Subaru literaly own, because those other subaru dealers the little ones have crappy service. But about u antifreeze smell is it that strong?

[Suzam]

Are you dealing with the service manager or just "one of the guys" behind the desk?

 

You need to talk to the service manager first and calmly explain your problem and ask for a mechanic to specifically look for indications of a leak or sepage. Your year isn't involved with the recall for the external leaks, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Remind them of what a great regular customer you are and how they have always been good to you service wise.

 

If you get no cooperation from the dealer, find another one or a good mechanic to check it out. You should always have problems documented in the service of a car enven if they can't find anything now... down the road you never know it it will become an issue.

[a97obw]

New cars do generally have a "coating" called Cosmoline that winds up "burning off" with time. You might want to go sniffing under the hood of a few other new Subarus at the dealership to see if in fact it is the same thing you are smelling.

 

As for the repair orders, oil changes etc.----document, document, document. IF the repair order does not reflect your concern about the "smell of coolant" issue, then simply refuse to pay the bill until they include that on the face of the work order, and it is signed off on by the Service Manager. But approach it in a polite way; if there is no cooling system problem in their opinion they shouldn't have any reason NOT to include the concerns you address. If there IS an actual cooling system problem that manifests into a major problem, then you have it documented. Either way it shouldn't matter to the dealership.

[Pillowsplat]

There is some stuff that seems to burn off by 10,000 miles. Don't let anbody tell you the HG problem is solved its not. Document coolant loss vs. time or mileage. Document it with the dealer on an invoice as a 'customer states'. Get your owners manual out and start a dialog with Subaru directly. They are great people and will stand behind their product lke any good company. Nothing gets the service manager moving your way like a call from Subaru.

[gbhrps]

You are describing the same problem that developed with my 02 OBW LTD at about the 40 000 km mark. I'd get out of the car and smell the sweet odour of coolant, and yet there never was any visible fluid loss on the engine or on the ground. Took the car to Subaru of London (Ontario, Canada) and asked the service manager to check it out. He came back and said that there was a slight coolant leak on both heads, and I booked an appointment for new head gaskets the following week. The work was done in quick time ... under warranty ... and at no cost to me other than a trip to the dealership. Within three months time I received a notice from Subaru of Canada about a special coolant additive that they suggested be added to the cooling system at my earliest convenience. I had that done as well, and have had no issues at all up to my present mileage of 130 000 km. I can't say enough positive praise for Subaru of London, and Subaru of Canada.

RJC ..... You need to go to another dealership! The people you've been dealing with are telling you that they have no interest in solving your problem.

[riggyrow]

I see this post is a few months old, but on the off-chance you check back in... I'm having the exact same experience with my 2006 Outback (see my post under Mysterious Coolant Leak). The symptoms and the dealer response have been the same as you experienced. Even after I've shown them digital pictures of the empty reservoir (I've had to fill it 3 times over a 30K mile period), they write on the repair order something along the lines of "All fluid levels normal; no leak detected." The only thing I can figure is that there is a very small leak in a hose or seal that is just big enough to cause coolant loss over a few months/couple of thousand miles, but not big enough to register on a pressure test. Given their shenanigans with not documenting my complaint properly on the repair orders, I'm not really sure how much effort the dealer has put into detecting the problem--or they know this is some kind of systemic problem (I've been finding lots of people online with the same or similar experience) and they're trying to put off as many people as possible until after the warranty period expires. At any rate, I would be very interested to know if you ever got this resolved!

[nipper]

filing the resivoir 3 times in 30,000 miles is not unusual. There is a reason your supposed to be opening the hood at least once a month, and thats to cehck the fluids. The resivoir is not sealed, and will still have the fluid evaporate with time.

 

I happen to agree with the service department on this one (and thats rare). Cars are not plug and play. Fluids need to be checked at regular intervals (at least once a month if not sooner on a long drive). Oil consumption of a qt every 3000 miles is considered normal (and the standard of 1 qt every 600 miles is surprisingly still acceptable..a std needs updating). Radiator coolant is water based and will evaporate since its not in a sealed system (it gets hot under there). If you left the washer fluid in there for the same amount of time that would evaporate too.

 

nipper

[CNY_Dave]

Same issue when I looked at my '03 at the dealer.

 

There is a TSB on how to properly clean the seating gaskets for the radiator cap- I kid you not.

 

Apparently, ther slightest bit of crud prevents a perfect seal.

 

Mine had a tiny bit of white cruft around the cap, on the radiator.

 

Dave

[hankosolder2]

filing the resivoir 3 times in 30,000 miles is not unusual. There is a reason your supposed to be opening the hood at least once a month, and thats to cehck the fluids. The resivoir is not sealed, and will still have the fluid evaporate with time.

 

I happen to agree with the service department on this one (and thats rare). Cars are not plug and play. Fluids need to be checked at regular intervals (at least once a month if not sooner on a long drive). If you left the washer fluid in there for the same amount of time that would evaporate too.

 

nipper

 

 

Nipper,

I have had very different experiences to you in this regard; I have had any number of Hondas which will go 2+ YEARS and many tens of thousands of miles without needing any coolant top-ups. It IS a sealed system; only a very small portion of the total fluid volume is unsealed (the fluid in the expansion/overflow resevoir) and even that is almost sealed- the vast majority of any evaporation will condense on the sidewalls of the expansion resevior. Also, only half of the volume of the resivoir is even water- (50/50 mix!) All of the cars which I've owned which required coolant top ups were eventually found to have a leak- how many times have you pulled a radiator hose off to find the crusty white residue of dried leaked coolant?

Windshield wiper fluid contains alcohol and is not a valid fluid to compare with coolant.

 

Nathan

[jon38iowa]

filing the resivoir 3 times in 30,000 miles is not unusual. There is a reason your supposed to be opening the hood at least once a month, and thats to cehck the fluids. The resivoir is not sealed, and will still have the fluid evaporate with time.

nipper

 

 

I have had very similar experience with my Forester; About every three months I have to add some coolant to the over flow, but never the Radiator. This has been this way since day one, and both before and after complete engine rebuild.

Come to think of it, my Mercury was the same way.

John

[stevetone]

Nipper,

...It IS a sealed system; only a very small portion of the total fluid volume is unsealed (the fluid in the expansion/overflow resevoir)...Nathan

And THAT is were the coolant evaporates from. The expansion tank gets EXPANDED coolant when hot and then gets sucked back in when it cools. Since the tank is not sealed, only capped, the hot, expanded coolant evaporates from there (or leaks from a defective and/or unclamped overflow line).

 

I'm not suggesting anything is or is not wrong, but it is definitely not a sealed system.

 

Steve

[stevetone]

BTW, IIRC, propylene glycol is an alcohol. Therefore, it does evaporate and can be compared, to some extent, to washer fluid (as nipper did).

 

Steve

[nipper]

Nipper,

I have had very different experiences to you in this regard; I have had any number of Hondas which will go 2+ YEARS and many tens of thousands of miles without needing any coolant top-ups. It IS a sealed system; only a very small portion of the total fluid volume is unsealed (the fluid in the expansion/overflow resevoir) and even that is almost sealed- the vast majority of any evaporation will condense on the sidewalls of the expansion resevior. Also, only half of the volume of the resivoir is even water- (50/50 mix!) All of the cars which I've owned which required coolant top ups were eventually found to have a leak- how many times have you pulled a radiator hose off to find the crusty white residue of dried leaked coolant?

Windshield wiper fluid contains alcohol and is not a valid fluid to compare with coolant.

 

Nathan

 

My point was that it was a liquid under the hood. Its not a totally sealed system. There is a vent hole, and from a scientific and engineering point of view, add in the thermal expansion of that simple lid, it can evaporate. I too have had over 20 cars over the years, and have had differnt expieriences with differnt cars. I professionally see nothing wrong with this amount of coolant loss (BTW hes due for a coolant change soon). I have always cleaned the cap ehn ive checked the radiator level, but thats just the way i was taught. As far as the white deposits, thats usually from using tap water (which a lot of shops use to top off cars.. which is annoying).

 

Etheylen glycol and water will loose liquid to evaporation, the water component will evaporate, as it is only a solution, and not a molecular bonded mix.

 

 

nipper

[hankosolder2]

My point was that it was a liquid under the hood. Its not a totally sealed system. There is a vent hole, and from a scientific and engineering point of view, add in the thermal expansion of that simple lid, it can evaporate. I too have had over 20 cars over the years, and have had differnt expieriences with differnt cars. I professionally see nothing wrong with this amount of coolant loss (BTW hes due for a coolant change soon). I have always cleaned the cap ehn ive checked the radiator level, but thats just the way i was taught. As far as the white deposits, thats usually from using tap water (which a lot of shops use to top off cars.. which is annoying).

 

Etheylen glycol and water will loose liquid to evaporation, the water component will evaporate, as it is only a solution, and not a molecular bonded mix.

 

 

nipper

 

Nipper,

I don't mean to be overly contentious about a minor issue- I have no doubt that, as you say, if the owner of the car tops up the coolant as needed, he will probably have no cooling system issues. I seem to recall you mentioning driving a loaner Subaru with an untracable burning coolant smell a while back... I honestly think that there are a lot of cars out there with trace leaks. Does it matter? No...as long as they are kept full, it's not going to be a problem.

I never said it was impossible for coolant to evaporate from the expansion tank, but I don't think it will evaporate at the rate the original poster was complaining about. No one has offered an explanation for the wide difference in frequency of coolant top-ups needed for different vehicles. If, for example, the underhood temperatures on a Honda were vastly lower than a Subaru, I'd say "ah, that's why the Subaru needs top ups." It's an interesting question, and one to which I don't claim to know the answer.

 

Nathan

[CNY_Dave]

Just want to weigh in again on the cap- they can leak direct-to-steam, you never see any liquid.

 

 

Dave

[johnceggleston]

Just want to weigh in again on the cap- they can leak direct-to-steam, you never see any liquid.

 

 

Dave

+1 for the cap. i had one leaking that i never would have noticed if i hadn't let the car idle, at full operating temp, in the drive way. the cap didn't leak until it was at full pressure. new cap, no leak.

[riggyrow]

My point was that it was a liquid under the hood. Its not a totally sealed system. There is a vent hole, and from a scientific and engineering point of view, add in the thermal expansion of that simple lid, it can evaporate. I too have had over 20 cars over the years, and have had differnt expieriences with differnt cars. I professionally see nothing wrong with this amount of coolant loss (BTW hes due for a coolant change soon). I have always cleaned the cap ehn ive checked the radiator level, but thats just the way i was taught. As far as the white deposits, thats usually from using tap water (which a lot of shops use to top off cars.. which is annoying).

 

Etheylen glycol and water will loose liquid to evaporation, the water component will evaporate, as it is only a solution, and not a molecular bonded mix.

 

 

nipper

 

I won't argue that some coolant loss due to evaporation isn't normal, but the amount seems a little excessive--simply based on my experiences with all of my other cars. What is more annoying than having to keep a closer eye on this car's coolant level than I'm used to (and believe me, I'm not one to treat cars as "plug and play") is the damn smell of coolant burning (or evaporating) off. Normal evaporation typically doesn't happen at such a high rate as to produce such a strong smell. BTW, I hit 30k miles a few days ago and just changed the coolant...as well as plugs, transmission fluid, oil, brake fluid, and air filter.

[TheYeti]

BTW, I hit 30k miles a few days ago and just changed the coolant...

 

Did the coolant look "normal"?

[riggyrow]

Did the coolant look "normal"?

 

Yep. No oil in it at any rate. Radiator cap was cleaned too...there was the tiniest amount of grit of some kind under the gasket, but I rinsed that all out.

 

My real concerns at this point, more than the coolant level itself, are 1) the smell--because it sucks to be driving on a nice day with the windows down and have to smell that smell and 2) the fact that the dealer doesn't seem to be documenting my complaint all that well (as was the original poster's experience) so that if this does develop into a larger problem I don't have the strong R.O. history that I would like to have.

[wookiemail]

I've had this problem with an 03 OBW. I missed it when I bought it used

with about 20K miles on it.

 

Could smell it in the garage; never a hint of antifreeze

around.

 

Dealer replaced one head gasket on warranty. Not sure

this affected it much. Maybe should have done both sides.

The warranty bill was nearly $800. Messed with the radiator

cap... replaced it as I remember with no improvement.

 

At 70K miles, it is still exhibiting the same symptoms.

Not a lot worse. Not using much fluid.

 

I've forgotten about it except when I go into the garage.

And like the other poster, I've never had a car do this.

 

Anyone have any luck with the recommended sauce to

put in the radiator?

 

BH, Loveland CO