volkswoman Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 I am posting this for a friend and hope someone can help him figure it out. He's got a 1995 Legacy wagon, with 68,000 original miles. It's got power steering, auto trans, no turbo. The problem: the car will shudder and shake in the front end, to the point of nearly killing the engine, when the steering wheel is turned lock to lock. This happens whether you turn left or right, and was first noticed when exiting a parking place. The car has had new engine mounts, and new belts. The alignment checks out OK. Tires and wheels are stock size and type. This man is an ex-engineer (now a physician) who takes exquisite care of his vehicles and this is driving him crazy! Can anyone shed any light on this problem? Has anyone ever had this happen to them? Most importantly, what does he do about it? Many thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 This sounds too weird. Remove the PS belt and repeat the manuver, i have the feeling he will get the same thing again, then its not a PS prblem. The WORST thing that can happen is that the the PS pump seizes and the belt screams like a banshee, it should not stall the car. This is almost sounding like Torque bind. Does the tach dip below 500 rpm when hes baking out with the PS connected? nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volkswoman Posted July 8, 2006 Author Share Posted July 8, 2006 Hey Nipper, thanks for your answer on this......he says No, he hasn't tried disconnecting the PS and trying it then. He also says he will pay more attention to the tach when it does this and report back. I will get back to you when he does! Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Hey Nipper, thanks for your answer on this......he says No, he hasn't tried disconnecting the PS and trying it then. He also says he will pay more attention to the tach when it does this and report back. I will get back to you when he does!Thanks again! inspect the CV joints, He may have onbe that seized. That arent amny things that can do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Will he get the same problem with the car stationary and turning the wheel lock to lock? Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keltik Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Hmm my brothers rover did the same thing, ended up being a nakkered front diff. But again that was on a fwd manual box. Surely a sick PS unit would just slip the belt? Perhaps its a bad steering rack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Racks tend to whow it in the morning, be very hard to turn, but once everything warms up its fine. They also show thier ugly heads in winter. The "to the point of nearly killing the engine" has me puzzled. Subaru racks are fairly bullit proof, but its a possability. i want to see the fanbelt test. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericem Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 I doubt its the steering rack, but sounds like severe torque bind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 I doubt its the steering rack, but sounds like severe torque bind. thats mmy gut feeling i wonder bieng a fellow engineer (we are a weird lot) and low mileage, i bet the tranny fluid has never benn changed. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volkswoman Posted July 9, 2006 Author Share Posted July 9, 2006 Hey guys, thank you much for all the thoughts....my friend is a former engineer himself! Then decided to go to med school.....anyway, I am sure the tranny fluid has been changed regularly. I asked about the CV joints too (had one go bad on my GTi) and he said they checked out fine. Am gonna print all this up and give it to him for reference.....I'll check back in when we have more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 have him change it again, as that can cure torque bind 90% of the time, if that is what it is. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volkswoman Posted July 13, 2006 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 Me again---well, guess what. Removing the PS belt didn't affect this problem. It still shudders. Any more ideas, anyone?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Me again---well, guess what. Removing the PS belt didn't affect this problem. It still shudders. Any more ideas, anyone?? ok its NOT a steering problem, its torque bind. You need to give the car alot of gas in a tight turn to get it to move correct? Its either that or a seized CV joint. When was the last time the tranny fluid was changed.... DO all the tires on the car match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 It is torque bind. To cure this on an auto tranny: * flush the fluid out. (this often cures mild to moderate binding) * clean/replace the Duty C solenoid (or have this done) * replace the AWD clutchpack at the rear of the tranny The above is listed in order of cost (least expensive first). Where in the Bay Area are you? send me a PM/email, and perhaps I can help diagnose it further, as I'm near there. Torque Bind generally occurs due to the transmission fluid overheating and depositing a varnish inside the transmission. What causes this most often is mismatched tires, as the rotating circumfrence of the tires does not match, causing the transmission to work harder (causing more heat) to compensate in order to provide power to all 4 wheels evenly. Prevention is in two parts: 1) Keep the tires evenly matched to within 1/4" Rotating Circumfrence (replace in sets, rotate them regularly) 2) change the transmission fluid regularly, as it will fail more easily after it has been overheated a couple of times. Replacing the transmission fluid most often corrects this situation if it is a recent onset. If it has been doing this for some time, more intensive corrective actions may be needed. An easy test to see if the tires are evenly sized: a) put a "Post-it" note (or other highly visable mark that can be removed after) at the bottom side of each tire. With the aid of a spotter, drive forward slowly in a straight line until one wheel has gone 10 revolutions (this is the reference tire) c) measure how far forward or rearward each of the other tires are from the reference position. d) the maximum allowable distance from the most forward to the most rearward is 2.5" (.25" x 10 revolutions) to be within specifications. e) if the tires are not within specifications, replace all 4 of them. Do this before attempting to repair the transmission. If you spend money on repairing the transmission, and the tires are out of spec, you are throwing your money down the toilet. If the tires are all within specifications, then we can proceed with the repair of the transmission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volkswoman Posted July 15, 2006 Author Share Posted July 15, 2006 OK, just checked with my friend. He now says he can't recall the last time the trans fluid was changed so he is going to proceed with that step ASAP. Also, all four tires are a matched set, so we can cross that off the list. He says you do have to "goose" the car a bit (give it a tad more gas) to get it going when making a tight turn, as in a small U turn or going into a parking space from the wrong side of the aisle. But it is - according to him - a very slight binding, nothing like what sticky brake shoes in a drum (I have old VWs that do this on occasion) would produce. His wife says if you drove the car you might not even notice anything wrong. But it started doing this about a year ago and she doesn't like it because it's not right. I'll get back to you after he has the trans fluid changed. Can't thank you all enough for all your wisdom and help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 OK, just checked with my friend. He now says he can't recall the last time the trans fluid was changed so he is going to proceed with that step ASAP. Also, all four tires are a matched set, so we can cross that off the list. He says you do have to "goose" the car a bit (give it a tad more gas) to get it going when making a tight turn, as in a small U turn or going into a parking space from the wrong side of the aisle. But it is - according to him - a very slight binding, nothing like what sticky brake shoes in a drum (I have old VWs that do this on occasion) would produce. His wife says if you drove the car you might not even notice anything wrong. But it started doing this about a year ago and she doesn't like it because it's not right. I'll get back to you after he has the trans fluid changed. Can't thank you all enough for all your wisdom and help! OUCH a year ago? Change the fluid. After a year i dont know if it is going to go away with a flush it is Torquebind that he has though. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volkswoman Posted July 15, 2006 Author Share Posted July 15, 2006 Well, yeah, if this has been going on for a year I wondered too. Both of them say it's barely noticeable......we'll see, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 i have a 95 sedan with "a little bit" of torque bind. i drove it 90k miles before the trans die. (rear seal pop at the drive shaft , then reverse went.) mine only bound up when the steering wheel was locked. of course that does not mean it didn't do it all the time, just i didn't feel it. this is just a guess, but i wonder if the 'little bit' is a symptom of the bad solenoid valve seat getting gummed up, which was corrected in 96/97? poor fluid flow/pressure limiting the clutch pack. these are the only 2 times i've heard of the 'little bit' of TB. my 97 obw had it bad when the duty c failed. can you diagnose the cause of the TB by how sever it is? john Well, yeah, if this has been going on for a year I wondered too. Both of them say it's barely noticeable......we'll see, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 i have a 95 sedan with "a little bit" of torque bind. i drove it 90k miles before the trans die. (rear seal pop at the drive shaft , then reverse went.) mine only bound up when the steering wheel was locked. of course that does not mean it didn't do it all the time, just i didn't feel it. this is just a guess, but i wonder if the 'little bit' is a symptom of the bad solenoid valve seat getting gummed up, which was corrected in 96/97? poor fluid flow/pressure limiting the clutch pack. these are the only 2 times i've heard of the 'little bit' of TB. my 97 obw had it bad when the duty c failed. can you diagnose the cause of the TB by how sever it is? john your close. In 1997 and 1/2 the internal housing was re designed. Aparently the seal would erode and allow pressure to bypass it and cause TB (was also told the hydraulic control valve seat would erode). There is the mechanical valve and the duty c solenoid. Having to goose the gas to get the car to move is more then a little torquebind. Remebr just because thats the only time its paparent to you, doesnt mean its not there the rest of the time. Damage is slowly being done all the time. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibumm100 Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 ....my friend is a former engineer himself! Then decided to go to med school...... Hmmmmm......one of the smart one's. I believe the current popular thought is to change the ATF every other Wednesday. Seriously though, change it once, run it around the block and change it again, then report back. You won't get all of the bad fluid out of the tranny pan. Still more inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Hmmmmm......one of the smart one's. I believe the current popular thought is to change the ATF every other Wednesday. Seriously though, change it once, run it around the block and change it again, then report back. You won't get all of the bad fluid out of the tranny pan. Still more inside. sigh, its once every 30,000 miles (i do believe). Sheesh Two ways of doing it, is drain it, go around the block, repeat 3 imes, or pay someone to do it. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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