Loyale turbo Timing question

[Pooparu]

Where should the small hole on the outside of the cam pullys be when the motor is at TDC?

 

[NorthWet]

Does not seem to be a truly useful question to ask. Are you trying to determine cam-timing (in which case you want to use the 3 marks and not TDC), or ignition timing (in which case the cam-sprocket mark is pretty irrelevant)?

[PoorManzImpreza]

If timing belts are set according to FSM then TDC can be found by cam sprocket alignment..Again according to FSM and looking directly at the front of the engine, if the small hole in the right hand sprocket is at 135 degrees (90+45) clockwise and the small hole on the left sprocket is at 315 degrees (360-45) clockwise, then the engine is at TDC on number one cylinder..at this point the disty can be installed and the flywheel/flex plate will confirm TDC at zero degrees...this is how I installed my disty and got it to run on 1st start instead of doing it 180 degrees out then having to take it back out and turn it 180 degrees.. FSM is a wonderful thing..I wish I could show the nice picture they have of how what I just described looks..

 

HTH

Kaz

[Pooparu]

I put new heads on and I think that my cams may have moved a little. My rig is running very rough.:-\

 

 

Does not seem to be a truly useful question to ask. Are you trying to determine cam-timing (in which case you want to use the 3 marks and not TDC), or ignition timing (in which case the cam-sprocket mark is pretty irrelevant)?

[Pooparu]

Where can I find pictures of FSM?

 

If timing belts are set according to FSM then TDC can be found by cam sprocket alignment..Again according to FSM and looking directly at the front of the engine, if the small hole in the right hand sprocket is at 135 degrees (90+45) clockwise and the small hole on the left sprocket is at 315 degrees (360-45) clockwise, then the engine is at TDC on number one cylinder..at this point the disty can be installed and the flywheel/flex plate will confirm TDC at zero degrees...this is how I installed my disty and got it to run on 1st start instead of doing it 180 degrees out then having to take it back out and turn it 180 degrees.. FSM is a wonderful thing..I wish I could show the nice picture they have of how what I just described looks..

 

HTH

Kaz

[NorthWet]

Again, the cam timing is NOT set referenced to TDC. If you are concerned that the cam belts are not properly aligned, there is no (practical) substitute for using the center mark of the 3 marks on the flywheel, aligning one cam sprocket with the hole pointing at the notch in the belt cover, rotating the engine one full revolution to the center of the 3 marks again, and aligning the other cam sprocket with the hole pointing at its cover's notch. Rotate the engine a couple of times and recheck that you got things aligned. Very easy to get off a tooth, hence the recheck.

[St Nickolas]

Here's a pic of the cams/crank alignment from the FSM. Timing the pass. side cam at the bottom makes it easy to miss it by a tooth. Better to rotate the crank 360, so that cam mark is straight up (and aligned with mark on rear timing belt cover). Hope this helps.

 

Nick

 

 

[Caboobaroo]

Here's a pic of the cams/crank alignment from the FSM. Timing the pass. side cam at the bottom makes it easy to miss it by a tooth. Better to rotate the crank 360, so that cam mark is straight up (and aligned with mark on rear timing belt cover). Hope this helps.

 

Nick

 

 

 

This is the way to go. I know a few people who try and put the driver side cam up and the passenger side down and they mess up the timing. It takes an extra 30 seconds to rotate the crank 360 degrees. So, get your driver side on, with the little hole pointing to the notch in the cover, rotate the crank 360 degrees, put passenger side cam sprocket pointing up, put the belt on and away you go.

[GeneralDisorder]

I always do it with one up, and one down, but it does take knowing how that should look and feel - if in doubt do it the book way rotating between belts.

 

The reason it's done this way, is because with the mark lined up, all the valves are closed and there is no tension on the cam from any of the valve springs. Just makes it easier to fine tune the belt alignment.

 

GD

[Pooparu]

I know this might sound really retarded but what if I took the part holding the torque converter off (the part with the 3 lines and I'm not sure I got it back on in the same spot or dose it only go on one way? If I'm looking down in through the spark plug hole (in the #1 piston) and I see that the piston is at it's highest point (which in theory is TDC) and I check under the rubber seal on the transmission I see a series of numbers and ticks. Would this be a good indication that the plate was put back on in the right spot? If so my cams are really off and I don't think they could have moved that much between taking them on and off. Man I'm just so damn confused and frustrated. I'm almost at the point where I want to take it in and have a mechanic mess with it, but I've worked so hard on it I feel like I would be giving up and loosing. I do appreciate all of your help I just find it hard to communicate through non face to face communication. Maybe if anyone in the area is willing to come over to my house and check things out with me I could pay you or something. If there's any takers let me know.

Thanks, pooparu

[mikeshoup]

Cam timing has nothing to do with TDC. Its timed to when the valves have the least pressure on them (makes it easier to turn the pulley). If cylinder 1&2 are at TDC, then you should be at the 0 mark on the flexplate.

[Pooparu]

Don't the valves have to be in time with the ignition timing? I think that both the cams and the ignition are out of time and I'm trying to get everything to jive together again and I think that I'm just making a big mess of things.

 

 

Cam timing has nothing to do with TDC. Its timed to when the valves have the least pressure on them (makes it easier to turn the pulley). If cylinder 1&2 are at TDC, then you should be at the 0 mark on the flexplate.

[SuBrat84]

If you keep spinning the motor while watching in that hole (the timing hole) . you will see the timing marks go away and keep going until you see three lines that have no number or anything. Aim the arrow at the middle line.. one cam sprocket hole should be pointed up, the other cam sprocket hole should be pointed down.(180 degrees apart) A tooth or two off WILL make your car run like crap. After you have verified that your cam timing is correct, THEN you set your engine timing by spinning it around to TDC and putting your distributor in the correct place and adjust accordingly with a timing light.. Does that make any sense?

Edit: I prefer using a breaker bar on the crank pulley bolt to spin the motor.

[Pooparu]

Is it posable to put the flex plate on wrong so the timing mark would be off?

 

 

If you keep spinning the motor while watching in that hole (the timing hole) . you will see the timing marks go away and keep going until you see three lines that have no number or anything. Aim the arrow at the middle line.. one cam sprocket hole should be pointed up, the other cam sprocket hole should be pointed down.(180 degrees apart) A tooth or two off WILL make your car run like crap. After you have verified that your cam timing is correct, THEN you set your engine timing by spinning it around to TDC and putting your distributor in the correct place and adjust accordingly with a timing light.. Does that make any sense?

Edit: I prefer using a breaker bar on the crank pulley bolt to spin the motor.

[hooziewhatsit]

Is it posable to put the flex plate on wrong so the timing mark would be off?

 

nope, it only goes on one way. I think there is one or two bolts that are slightly offset. So, make sure all the bolts line up before starting to bolt it on.

[Pooparu]

Okay, everything bolted back up just fine so the flex plat shouldn't be an issue anymore. Thursday night after work I'll make all the adjustments and cross my fingers. :-\

 

 

nope, it only goes on one way. I think there is one or two bolts that are slightly offset. So, make sure all the bolts line up before starting to bolt it on.

[NorthWet]

Regarding your previous question about cam timing and ignition timing being related: Yes they are, in that the ignition timing is dependant on the cam timing being correct. Confirm that the cam timing is correct, then check the ignition. I can't remember/see if you said that distributor had been removed, but if it hasn't then the ignition timing should be close.

[Pooparu]

Yes the distributor was removed.

 

 

Regarding your previous question about cam timing and ignition timing being related: Yes they are, in that the ignition timing is dependant on the cam timing being correct. Confirm that the cam timing is correct, then check the ignition. I can't remember/see if you said that distributor had been removed, but if it hasn't then the ignition timing should be close.

[Pooparu]

Worked like a charm. Thank you very much, but now I went to pull the thing out and for some reason it feels like the brakes are sticking or something. I can get it moving but it pulsates and doesn't want to move very well. Now I have to put it back up and check all the brakes and see what the problem is. If anyone else has had this happen please give me a heads up on what it could be.

[NorthWet]

Let's step back a bit... You had the engine out, correct? You mentioned flexplate, so this is an automatic? If automatic, is it a 3-speed or a 4-speed? if automatic and engine out, did you remove the torque converter or did it pull out from the tranny a little bit? Back to car pulsating: Does the car roll ok in neutral and being pushed by hand?

[Pooparu]

It is a 4 speed automatic. I removed the torque converter. The car doesn't roll in neutral.

 

 

Let's step back a bit... You had the engine out, correct? You mentioned flexplate, so this is an automatic? If automatic, is it a 3-speed or a 4-speed? if automatic and engine out, did you remove the torque converter or did it pull out from the tranny a little bit? Back to car pulsating: Does the car roll ok in neutral and being pushed by hand?

[NorthWet]

Well, it sounds like the good news, or at least not REALLY bad news...yet. If you can, jack up the front of the car (and properly support), make sure that the tranny is in neutral and the parking brake is off. Try rotating each of the front wheels. If they turn ok, try the same thing but on the back wheels.

Back to the tranny: Did you properly seat the torque converter back onto the transmission before you tried putting the engine back in? On the 4-speed especially, it can be a pain. When you bolted the engine and tranny together, did the bellhousings come together fairly easily, or was there a 1/4inch gap that you had to clsoe by tightening the engine-to-tranny bolts? (The gap and the bolts are a BAD indication.)

[Pooparu]

I put the the converter on first to make sure it was set properly, then I put the motor back in and bolted up the flex plate. I'm going to put it up on jack stands tonight after work and see what's not moving. I'll let you know what I find.

 

 

 

Well, it sounds like the good news, or at least not REALLY bad news...yet. If you can, jack up the front of the car (and properly support), make sure that the tranny is in neutral and the parking brake is off. Try rotating each of the front wheels. If they turn ok, try the same thing but on the back wheels.

Back to the tranny: Did you properly seat the torque converter back onto the transmission before you tried putting the engine back in? On the 4-speed especially, it can be a pain. When you bolted the engine and tranny together, did the bellhousings come together fairly easily, or was there a 1/4inch gap that you had to clsoe by tightening the engine-to-tranny bolts? (The gap and the bolts are a BAD indication.)