daeron Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 okay, the subject says it all. Im having several minor cooling issues that I am gradually tracing back to a bad headgasket.. but im not sure yet. Unfortunately, i havent had an opportunity to get up to our shop and do a compression check/leakdown test.. but please humour me. the cooling system on this car needs a few touches anyhow, so i am taking care of those now. Driveway work, not shop work. Anyhow, like i said, the subject says it all. MOST of the times lately when i have heated sharply over operating temp, and i resorted to trying the heater to cool it off, it had the wrong effect. When i turned on the heater, it usually RAISES running temp sharply.. and then it usually drops back down to at LEAST whatever it was when i turn it off...so why would that be?? before i started having any cooling issues, several months ago, i think i noticed some coolant on the carpet at the passenger's feet, but it has yet to become a problem.. and if i turn the defogger on when im running at normal temp, its not a problem.. Otherwise, i might think i have a heater core leak, and that every time i turn it on it has to fill it up again.. which would give overheating water an expansion chamber, and lower the pressure to allow it to vaporize... BUT i haven't had any problems with my heater "peeing" on the carpet since the one time, so long ago.... and that was TOTALLY isolated. Still, somehow I got antifreeze on the carpet, so that could be a problem.. But is this an indicator of a headgasket problem? or something else?? why does the heater make it hotter? thats supposed to be your emergency protocol when overheating, right?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 The heater generally isn't the culprit - it's the fan. The higher you set the fan the more amps it draws out of the accesory circuit, and the resistor in the temp sender has a smaller effect on the sensor circuit signal. I've run into this a few times - all the guages will change - including the fuel level guage if you turn on more power eating stuff. Generally people will see a net decrease in the temp gauge - but it may initially jump up a little as the electricity is faster to change the guage reading than the heater core is at removing cooling system heat. If your heater core isn't working well (like clogged perhaps) you may see the increase but not get much for a decrease in temp. May also indicate an alternator on the way out as a good running alt, and decent electrical system will not always show this effect. Try just turning the fan on high without the heater and see that you get the same effect - that will confirm which one is at fault. One thing I've noticed on the EA82 is that the alternator belt needs to be NEW (soft rubber), and needs to be fairly tight to keep the water pump turning and the coolant moving. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted July 31, 2006 Author Share Posted July 31, 2006 One thing I've noticed on the EA82 is that the alternator belt needs to be NEW (soft rubber), and needs to be fairly tight to keep the water pump turning and the coolant moving. GD THAT was an interesting point, and taken to heart.. so you would recommend tightening the belts tighter than one would ordinarily on say, a mazda or a ford, or whatever?? both of my belts are new, but i think they may want tightening.. sometimes if i turn on the AC at speed i get a good squeak, and they seem like they might be a bit loose.. ah well, thats mostly because somehow the crowbar here at my house, AND the pry bars at the shop, have ALL been AWOL and ive had to get creative while tightening my belts.. so sometimes i was working in less than ideal circumstances (requiring three hands and such..) to tighten these belts properly, i really need to loosen both, then tighten the non-alternator belt, then the alternator correct? My alternator is a recently replaced, rebuilt unit from Advance/Discount auto.. i havent had any problems with it, but i question my battery.... but im replacing that today. i never noticed any difference on the fuel guage, but with the digidash, i have a feeling that i dont see things i would see with a normal dash.. i dont think a wavering needle would translate into the gas guage acting like the tachometer... but i may be wrong. it just seems to me that they operate under a basis of constantly averaging readings at a given frequency, rather than an analog fashion.... so, a momentary wobble of a needle would be smoothed out. thanks for the answer, and the tip on the belt. good to know ive already got the part, just needs the foot-pounds. (i got a good alternator belt too.. im normally cheaper than that but something told me to get the gatorback.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Well - not TOO tight, you'll ruin the bearings in the alt, and the water pump. Basically I make sure the belt still has some "spring" to it - when you put tension on it, the belt should spring back a little when you let off. Shows the rubber is still good. Hard cooked rubber will slip against the pulley instead of turning it. Then I tension it so that it's tight to where I can't see any "flop" in the belt when it's running, and there is about 1/2" deflection in the longest unsupported section of the belt (usually between the alt and water pump). I also use the twist test - you should not be able to twist the belt more than 90 degrees on the longest section. Another overlooked peice is the radiator cap - I can't even count how many of those I've had go bad. Don't cheap out on it too much, but I've had fine luck with the Senki or Stant ones. I think it's .9 bar, or 13 lbs depending on make. One thing that people overlook when trouble shooting cooling systems is the pressure - you may not have any "bad" parts, but if the system will not hold pressure (and this seems especially true with subaru) they will overheat quickly. A cooling system that will hold a good temp at still idle, but will overheat on the freeway at 3,000 RPM is a good indication that you have a pressure leak somewhere (could be other things, but pressure test should be done before replaceing parts). Taking a good pressure reading, and if you can get one or access to one, a pump to pressurize the system when it's cold can really help find leaks. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 well i have already replaced my radiator cap with one or two JY ones (just as a fersh*ts-andgiggles) and then a locking stant 13 pound stock one.. i think it was 13. well, i trusted what the parts guy sold me. i better go double check that. if its not that, its a higher pressure.. but i cant recall. anyhow, i have no problem at highway speeds... and at this point, honestly, the only time i have heat difficulties is if i sit and idle (like at a drive through or a gatehouse) shortly after heavy driving.. and thats not much. it rarely goes to the halfway mark or above. With the AC on it can be a whole nother story.. but usually, at night, the AC causes no problems.. unless preceeded by a highway-type drive.. you know, a good hard run, followed by slow-no motion with engine running. and AC on. oh and i changed the battery today, and at midafternoon (the car read 92 degrees in the bank drivethru canopy shade....) it was running warmer than ive seen it since removing the themrostat and replacing the radiator, unprovoked.. BUT when i tried turning on the AC it heated up.. rapidly. no big surprise that, although i was taken aback at how quickly it happened.. but when i hit the heat on, it REALLY went up again... the alternator was replaced about a year ago and i have no OTHER reasons to doubt it.. and my elec radiator fan is always on with the key, so the only electrical draw coming on with the heater is the heater/AC fan itself... Again, today, what i experienced was not problematically hot. it cooled adequately. but i was able to easily goad it into the red on the guage.. and i dont _think_ it was an erroneous reading... but you would know this voltage issue better than I. and i would KINDA like to be able to use my car to cool me off in midafternoon stop and go traffic......its rare that im actually out and about in such nasty traffic per se, but the humidity down here makes the heat utterly insidious, and the roads are just stagnantly hot, even if its just for a red light. the volkswagen AC system just cant cut it.. not when the real AC blows as cold as it does... Im thinking of retrofitting a superbig fan onto the thing.. gotta check the amperage draw though.. i might just leave the clutch fan in pplace and put the aftermarket fan on the front :- ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 The digital dashes are utterly NOTORIOUS for incorrect readings. It's all about the solder connections on the printed circuit boards. Didn't know till your last thread you were running a digi. If there is only one peice of knowlege you take away from this thread it's this: The absolute BEST thing for a digi-dash is to add two aftermarket guages - one for coolant temp, and one for oil pressure. You'll have to plump the senders, but that's not hard. Even if you get $10 cheap wall-mart guages it's better than the digi-dash. I won't go into the whole story (if you search enough on oil pressure threads you'll run across it), but I blew an engine because I couldn't monitor the oil pressure with the digi I had. I've since replaced the engine and converted the car to analog (digi died due to alternator rectifier). When I replaced the engine I went with Autometer 2.25" guages for the water, oil, and voltage. I love em. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calebz Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 87+ digidashes are not quite the monsters most people fear. When you crank up the fan, the lights and other load creating items, your temp shoots up. A few extra grounds under the hood and maybe, if you are really industrious, under the dash. That will take care of the temp gauge problems. The you can start to diagnose the initial heating problem, if any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbrat Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 so are you running without the thermostat still, or did you replace it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Caleb is right - they aren't as bad as mine - mine was an EA81 version. Much worse. And he has a good point about checking the grounds. Still can't monitor oil pressure or put an honest number to the coolant temp. I don't like either of those. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonicfrog Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 I've had a few to drink, so I'm not sure if you mentioned the age of you radiator, and forgive any type-o's. I would look into a new one. I just replaced mine and cured my "hot" problem. Muphy, the $500 87 turbo wag had similar problems, where the digi-temp would read hotter when I turned on the fan. I freaked a friend out once doing that. The car got even by blowing coolant hoses, one a month. I replaced the digi-dash with an analogue (a project to say the least) cause I though I might have a ground problem.Though the analogue gauge wasn't as touchy as the digi was, I was still running too hot. A new(er) radiator did the trick. Murphy only runs on the warm side when I'm on the freeway driving at around 70 in the California heat wave that just passed. Part of the probolem there is that I also have the crappy 3 speed Auto Tranny. This fall I'm gonna throw a 5 spd hi / lo manual in the car. I can't wait. As fast as the T-Wag is now, it's gonna be a blast with the manual tranny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 no thermostat. When i got the car it had a 160 in it.. i swear to god, 160 degrees fahrenheit. that at one point began to stick, so i replaced it.. the local stores only had 180, and i mean ALL.. and i live in a large area.. not backwoods, you know? anyhow, the car ran warmer ever since then. I think i may also have a slight maladjustment of ignition timing, but i havent been able to lay my hands on a timing light in recent months.. my uncle has been sick a few times, and i have been working far too much. anyhow, the new thermostat started sticking (which may well have been an unnoticed forerunner to all the problems ive had lately.. i had a rad hose blow, and a water pump leak/blowout. the pump was OK, but there was water a-spewing.. i didnt know how it was designed until i took off the AC compressor, but in retrospect i think it was the seal around the outlet pipe that goes towards the back of the engine.. (probably both at the same time, but i found the rad hose first) anyhow with the thermostat sticking, and my rad fins in a shambles, i did some JY hunting and found a brand new radiator in a loyale wagon.. single core, and non OEM but all metal and nice shiny black, full of nice shiny green antifreeze.. i wanted to save the antifreeze, it looked so good... got that, and a new clutch fan shroud and what looks like an original factory piece OEM elec fan to replace the aftermarket slim line thats on there now. I have concluded that I want to short out the thermoswitch plug with a jumper wire, and then install the stock elec.. and from there i am unsure. I could replace the clutch fan with the slimline, it fits in the shroud rather well.. or i might have another fan that would be a better option. Im trying to establish as much of a fan "footprint" on the radiator as possible. I may even leave the clutch fan in and put the slimline up front, blowing back across the AC condensor... two elec fans, maybe one on a switch? hey, how would that work?? replace the thermoswitch, wire the stock fan to come on a temperature threshold, wire the slimline to be on all the time, and leave clutch fan as is??? :mad: i dont WANT a gauge pod... i realize that functionality is important, but so many people look SOOOO stupid with their bloody gauge pods... i agree with you though. here you can read the full thread i wrote... which no one responded to for any details.. but i keep referring to the temp reading as third, fourth.. up to tenth.. etc.. i HATE not knowing what my car is doing.. and i want to switch over to an analog pod... but this car isnt WORTH all that, the trunk is about to fall off!!!! i need to find a nice, five speed pushbutton AWD that needs a motor.. or maybe not even that, screwit.. just gimme the turbo too, ill pay for it... but the cars dont even EXIST down here.. i live in south florida, about fifty miles north of Miami, and seriously.... ive driven the car for two years now, and seen MAYBE four or five other ez82s on the road.. far more than that in the boneyards, but literally none within 200 miles for sale (well, for less than 2,000) (yes i said 2,000, there are car delaerships down in miami and lauderdale that are just obscene like that... the sad thing is people pay it, because its asked...) thanks for the help everyone, and especially for the advice about the gauge pod. despite my views on aftermarket silliness, i have always wanted any car i had to have complete instrumentation.. my Zcar does. ammeter, fuel, oil press and water temp. those are the big four right? anyhow im sure we have a few of them lying around, i shouldnt _need_ to buy anything and if i havent actually been overheating.... i am going to be very mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 sonicfrog, i addressed the radiator already.. yah, new one. new to me anyhow, and new enough. my buddy has a coolant flush machine from his shop, imma get some solution to flush the block out with and get that nice and cleaned out.. i am still trying to determine if i am still losing water, and it looks like i might be.. must check in the morning once its cooled all the way off and theres light. i changed my oil today as well, its been leaking about a quart every 500 miles or so (and its visibly leaking, not burning.. visibly at least) and there was a bit of a rainbow sheen to it, but no water in it. there has never been oil in the water either.. also, i have COMPLETELY neglected to recheck the ATF level, i dont recall when i last did. i ALSO failed to mention that i have the crapezoidal 3AT too.... so thats one other thing to check on.. speaking of which, would it be a good idea to drain and refill my tranny? i dont have any problems with it.. it sticks on the shift into second the first time, when its cold... but after that first shift through, its golden. no slips no noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 No need to install a guage pod. You can just put the guage down in the change pocket of the console under the radio. It only matters that you HAVE it. I understand not wanting it to look rice, but it's more important to have the guage - even if it's not in your direct line of sight. You will be able to check it now and then. It's absolutely vital in the case of oil pressure that you have a reading for it - the idiot light will not come on till it's far too late - trust me. If you really can't stand the guages anywhere they can be seen, put them under the lid of the hand brake console. Or mount them IN the engine bay. You have lots of choices here, but you NEED the guages to verify that your efforts are having an effect, and to monitor important metrics not offered by the digi cluster. You'll kick yourself like I did if low oil pressure kills the rods. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 i honestly hadnt thought of just, tucking them away.. im about to put an aftermarket stereo in, so what i think ill actually do is put them in the large bay underneath the entire radio area.. in front of the shifter console. the top half of that compartment has already been hacked out, so the piece of plastic is already half gone.. no harm no foul screwing a gauge cluster there. im probly gonna get an ammeter for it, too.. just to fill out the bunch. i was talking about it on the Wonder Brumby post.. function over form. this is my pizza delivering machine, and i need to care properly for it. Plus, the parts are probably already there for the taking. dare i ask, the stock oil pressure and water temperature sending units are part of the flawed aspect, right? so i couldnt just hook them up to a better gauge.. it couldnt be THAT simple. im sure the gauges are paired with sending units.. but (if you hadnt noticed) i havent paid too much attention in "Aftermarket Gauge Class" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Yeah - the senders are not going to work - unfortunately they have the wrong resistance values for any aftermarket guages that I know of. Plus you don't have an oil pressure sender anyway, and the voltmeter/ammeter is just wiring. That really only leaves the coolant temp sensor. A good parts store will be able to sell you an adaptor to 1/8" NPT, or you can make your own from a junk yard oil pressure sender - same thread for both the OPS, and the CTS, so grab two, cut the threaded end off and use your drill press to drill and tap the proper threads in the end of it. I tried this with a hand drill, but brass is so soft and "sticky" that it's difficult to do it and not hog the hole out a bit - if you do, use a vise, and drill from the bottom of the threads up as that will leave the exit hole pretty clean and round for the tap. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 excellent. will do, i can already see the gauges down in that spot and it looks good., im liking it more than the current setup.. i could do this NICE... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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