Who's running non-gasoline fuel in their EA?

[SakoTGrimes]

The only reason I'm not driving a Subaru right now is because I'm one of those flag burning hippies who refuses to buy petroleum. I really want another Subaru. I neeeed another Subaru (haven't been wheeling in 5 months!) So I'm curious as to how many of us are running EA81/EA82s on ethanol, propane, whatever, what you had to do, the cost, ect. I can't stress enough how badly I need this. Any help at all is greatly appreciated.

[GeneralDisorder]

I haven't personally done the LPG conversion, but I know someone that has, and apparently it's really easy. They make LPG "carbs" that mount with the same pattern as the Weber we all know and love. He says his EA81 has just as much power as it had with the Weber and gasoline. I guess most of the cost was the tank and the lines - the carb itself was only about $50 - very simple device as LPG is a gas at atmospheric pressure. Have to run a bit larger tank as the mileage isn't as good, but that's offset by the lower cost of the fuel. Find a local place to you that specializes in LPG setups and they should be able to help you out. Cost was more than a weber as the tank and lines are not cheap, but the fact it will run at any angle is nice, and the system is so increddibly simple there is almost nothing that can go wrong with it. No fuel pump, etc.

 

GD

[keltik]

Call for LPGSuperChargedBrumby, im pretty sure hes done it with impressive results.

[LPGsuperchargedBrumby]

as my login name implies im on LPG and have been for quite awhile now and i wouldn't got back to petrol unless there was a massive price difference in favor of petrol.

LPG has bonus's that i like like the fact that i don't need a choke...and i can and am running 25deg+ spark advance(i don't know what im running, the timing marks stop at 20deg, i've got my dizzy as far foward as it will go without turning it a tooth)

Oil change intervals are good as well.... 25'000km and it comes out only a tad darker than it goes in

 

and LPG is cheaper here $0.86 per liter as against $1.71 per liter for 91 petrol (lowest grade here)

Even with the extra fuel usage due to lower BTU content LPG costs the same as if petrol was $1.05 per liter when you workout $$$ per 100km

[Uberoo]

propane here is 2.00 bucks a gallon.Gas is 3.04 how much does the tank cost.in fact how big of a tank to you need to drive the same distance as with 11 gallons of gas?

[GeneralDisorder]

My friend said a 30 gallon tank he figured was good for 600 miles or so.

 

GD

[LPGsuperchargedBrumby]

propane here is 2.00 bucks a gallon.Gas is 3.04 how much does the tank cost.in fact how big of a tank to you need to drive the same distance as with 11 gallons of gas?

stock brat/brumby tank is 50ltr my 70 liters of lpg capacity give me exactly the same range..about 500km

 

just keep in mind when sorcing a LPG tank that when full an LPG tank must have a 20% capacity reserve in the tank I.E a 100liter tank will only hold 80liters....the extra room allows for lpg to expand if it warms up so that if you fill your tank at night (cooler/cold) then let it sit with a full tank in the sun it won't hydraulic the tank

[Uberoo]

What carb did you use?regulator?any thing else needed?Looking online gives about a billion hits but only 1 or 2 articles on converting cars to run on propane..

[LPGsuperchargedBrumby]

What carb did you use?regulator?any thing else needed?Looking online gives about a billion hits but only 1 or 2 articles on converting cars to run on propane..

 

im using a self made carb that i made out of a ea82t throttle body with a LPG mixer venturi mounted ontop.

 

google WPS LPG and go to the WPS site this guy has a really good writeup....a bit old but still pretty good

[daeron]

LPGSuperChargedBrumby, YOU ROCK!!!!!!

 

i have w3anted to do an LPG conversion on a car since i was 13, and since you told me just now that you made your own carb out of a TBI TB and a propane venturi..... its gonna be MIGHTY hard for me not to do the same thing..... it just makes so much SENSE.. it might not be a soob though, i might make one out of a 240Z. that or the cars eventually gonna get a 4.6L modular ford driveline in it with a bwT56 and a r200LSD... those are the two pipe dreams for the undriven, unsold automatic datsunZ in my uncles yard.

[LPGsuperchargedBrumby]

if you are going to make your own carb like i did don't be tempted to try making a 'bigger carb' if your venturi is too big your low end isn't going to exist im running a 37mm venturi and its fine i was running a 46mm venturi and it would bog (and stall if i didn't stomp on the clutch) just off idle

[daeron]

question, with a vehicle that has mpfi (not a soob, im thinking more general terms on this type of project).. my thoughts for a single venturi would be to locate it where the cold start injector is, typically just behind the throttle body.. that should work right? or, with that type of setup would you rather have "injectors" where the fuel injectors are? i would think it better to supply all the fuel up where the TB is, at the cold start injector port, and let it go from there...and block off where the injectors would be located. im just basically thinking of using a tuned port intake manifold, as the "carb" so to speak... of course all the FI stuff would be gone, fuel rail, everything... ive ALWAYS wanted to find someone i could talk with about this sort of project. thanks for the replies.

[desertsubaru]

A good place to get tanks and lines are at motorhome junk yards. A lot of 80s rvs where propane so they have tanks and some times you can get good lines to. even if the rv wasent lpg it should still have a large tank for the stove and heater. Only bad thing is in winter it can freeze so you should insulate tank and lines.

[75subie]

this guy did the propane conversion on his subaru as well:

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=57399&highlight=propane

[LPGsuperchargedBrumby]

question, with a vehicle that has mpfi (not a soob, im thinking more general terms on this type of project).. my thoughts for a single venturi would be to locate it where the cold start injector is, typically just behind the throttle body.. that should work right? or, with that type of setup would you rather have "injectors" where the fuel injectors are? i would think it better to supply all the fuel up where the TB is, at the cold start injector port, and let it go from there...and block off where the injectors would be located. im just basically thinking of using a tuned port intake manifold, as the "carb" so to speak... of course all the FI stuff would be gone, fuel rail, everything... ive ALWAYS wanted to find someone i could talk with about this sort of project. thanks for the replies.

 

venturi needs to be mounted in front of the throttle body not behind/downstream of it.

 

i've seen conversions done on injected motor and most of them left all the FI gear inplace just disconecting the electrics and fuel pump and replaceing the disty with one that is stand alone(carburetor type).

there are also thing called emulators used on LPG conversions in europe that plug into the back of the injectors and in turn have the injector power wire plugged into the back of them....and what they do when they're switched on is tell the ECU that injector is working while at the same time not allowing power through to the injector...so when your running on LPG the ecu don't know about it

[daeron]

DUH, sorry about that. thanks, im actually not very experienced OWNing a carbureted vehicle... ive worked on them plenty, and rebuilt lawnmower carbs, and am an antique outboard mechanic Extraordinaire, but i still havent grokked the carb _quite_ fully enough, obviously.. because here i was picturing myself building essentially a gigantic carb/plenum out of my old intake manifold, and then building the most crucial bit of it backwards......

 

I bet you could just rotate the TB assembly 180 degrees so that it opens the other way.. and puts the cold start port on the right side..

 

i dunno, im just playing with the idea. you, in the last 24 hours, have given me more hard data on a project idea that has REALLY intrigued me, than ive been able to uncover with my minimal research efforts. It seems like very time ive tried searching the internet for a real good how to, i get skunked. just people selling parts that dont tell me how to put em together. as for library.. whats that?

 

Im gonna go read wikipedia on it right now. I appreciate the stimulation, this might even _actually_ happen someday, now.

[DIRAVI]

I am running my EA81, carb, on E85, its 85% Etanol, 10% petrol, i can use it whitout conversion, but somtimes i have to use the choke to give it a litle more fuel.

 

gasmilage is about 10% lower than on petrol(98 octan unleded) but since the octan is mutch higher on etanol it is possible whith conversions to run same or better milage.

 

i am in the process of convert mi girlfriends EA82T whith new enginecontrol(MegaSquirt) and then the possibilities to use new fuels is better, with better controll of the ignition and fuel.

[DIRAVI]

venturi needs to be mounted in front of the throttle body not behind/downstream of it.

 

i've seen conversions done on injected motor and most of them left all the FI gear inplace just disconecting the electrics and fuel pump and replaceing the disty with one that is stand alone(carburetor type).

there are also thing called emulators used on LPG conversions in europe that plug into the back of the injectors and in turn have the injector power wire plugged into the back of them....and what they do when they're switched on is tell the ECU that injector is working while at the same time not allowing power through to the injector...so when your running on LPG the ecu don't know about it

 

it is common on newer LPG-cars, to hawe them "Bifuel", so you have the EFI to control the propane/methane as well as the petrol.

 

in this way you can use some petrol to "top upp" when the propane/methane dont giwe eunogh power.

[jono]

Wow, 85% ethanol in an old Subaru - wonder if it has rusted away from the inside by now - 8 years later ??

[coxy]

Disco has been playing with ethanol in his skyline and with all the different ratio mixes has found that around 25%~30%  Ethanol mix gives the best results regarding Fuel consumption and power output being equal to or better than straight 98 Octane super fuel, He does keep hinting that another Subaru this time an Impressa RS may become his next daily as both the Evo 6 and the Skyline are not ideal cars to run as a daily so he may reapear here one day soon but in another subforum compared to Ellie the RX Build.

 

LPG does have massive advantages when it comes to engine internal cleanliness though as superchargedlpgbrumby has noted.

[silverback]

Years ago, I converted a vehicle with a V-8 to propane. The octane rating is higher than gas. The carb/mixer and converter were made by OHG. OHG stands for "Over the Hill Gang".  Use of an old tank is risky. They have a life span and have to be tested and re-certified. I can't remember the time between re-cert. I had a GM HEI distributor so it worked OK without changeing the advance curve.

Two problems for a Subaru conversion:  Where are you going to put the tank(s)?  It needs to be 'outside'.

Fuel availability for a vehicle was scarce. Buying propane for a vehicle was a daylight activity. No one would sell me propane after dark in the Seattle area. Truck stops were a gamble. The night shift people would tell me that they did not know how to operate the propane pump and do the hook up. I offered to show them.

Infrastructure for propane vehicle fuel has not improved.  I am not sure what the price of propane is these days.

Also, for car licensing, you had to buy a yearly 'tab' for the tank to cover your road taxes since you were not buying gasoline and the highway tax per gallon is huge in Washington State. Funny, I don't know where they spend it.

[coxy]

The problem we had with that fuel in Australia is the same lack of places to get it especially in the Bush (Country or backwoods), But another issue we came across is they lowered the octane rating of propane fuel in Australia.

 

I used to build a number of mainly V8 engines for LPG as we call it here (Liquefied Petroleum Gas) as many people tried to beat the high cost of Petrol (Gasoline) or used a loophole in modified vehicle compliance whereby any vehicle running on LPG was exempt from emissions requirements testing but then they lowered the octane rating of LPG because that required less expensive refining processes.

 

Where this became a problem was because the BTU (British Thermal Units) or energy content of the fuel was less we used to raise the compression ratio about 10% to maintain the same power output as on petrol, So you see where lowering the octane rating suddenly became a problem on earlier built engines.

 

Nissan in Australia made what we called a 200 B in other places known as a Bluebird etc ( Nissan 810 model) and to get rid of the last of the model did a factory LPG model these had a small chamber U67 head casting the normal ones had a 62cc chamber these had the same chambers as a ^!0 with the A87 casting with about a 52cc chamber all to make sure the engines performed to the same level as the normal petrol models.

 

These heads became very sought after for Rally 510's (1600's out here) as well as the factory hardened rocker arms these engines were also fitted with as they basically became a replacement for the original big port SSS cylinder heads but with better rocker arms as a bonus.

 

So LPG or propane fuel can be good but needs an appropriate engine build to suit a few issues Propane engines run hotter are less thermally efficient but can handle more ignition advance in some cases less in others, they also require some form of permanent upper cylinder lubricant system or they will wear out valve guides as Propane fuel is a "Dry" fuel having no lubricating properties, It also wears out throttle shafts for that reason, So some research will soon uncover LPG or Propane lubrication systems for such a conversion if done properly something few seem aware of.

 

Something on Youtube for the lubrication of propane or LPG converted engines to be aware of.

 

Edited March 30, 2014 by coxy

[silverback]

Good point about 'dry' fuels as in LPG and LNG.  Valve lubrication and valve carbon build up are factors to consider.  Direct injection engines will carbon up the valves way too early.  I have an AMPCO lubricator that drips a metered amount of my fav, Marvel Mystery Oil, into the intake manifold of my Webered EA82.  The breathers on the AMPCO unit tend to get soaked with MMO sloshing around from speed bumps.

 

Coxy, you know this: have to have hardened valve seats. Not a problem for most vehicles but is something to keep in mind for older vehicles.