BoostedBalls Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Ok, I feel better now. It's been about a year since I was in the engine and I pretty much forgot how everything was configured. This is the first wild cam install I've done on an OHC engine with HLA's so when I hear that you have to slap some shims in there, the hair on the back of my neck stands up. So I guess I had my head up my arse and my foot in my mouth. So I guess I'll shim away! I'll just shim it until it feels like my other ea-82t does. This sounds like an apology doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 The cool thing about the hydro lifters is you don't have to worry about the thickness of the shim. It just needs enough to take up the slack, and a little more is OK just to be safe. I might actually use a quarter as the EA82 lifters are pretty good sized. Either that or some arcade nickles. No cash value on those! GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 no more than what i said up there sounded like i was scolding you :-p i certainly cant say that i wouldnt have done the same thing in your shoes.. ive yet to rebuild a cylinder head, myself.. so lots of things that are abstract about it might foul me when it comes to actual work.. and as i said, if i were in your shoes and hadnt had it drawn to my attention by delta, then i may have missed it too. at least you get the extra bonding time with the top end internals... take photos, these times are gone, too fast... suddenly one day youve overheated too bad and BAM, its new head time. did i just wax nostalgic on a cylinder head? maybe i need to eat or something. or some caffeine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 I did post about shims back when I built the ER27. Shim thickness does matter as if you go to thick the pushrod runs the risk of bottoming out. I did use dimes for my shims and told Delta about it. Chuck Sand told me about the dimes as he used them in his XT6's as well. So, when Delta tells you that they get used in race engines they are speaking the truth. Get a roll of dimes and a caliper to measure with. Get 16 dimes that are the same thickness. You will find that a roll of dimes produce about 3 or 4 different thicknesses. Find them install them and forget about them. They do not move once you install them but make sure that you do not go too thick as the oil cavity will not line up and that will cause issues with oiling. Good luck, look into some sort of engine management as well. Are you still running mega squirt?(iirc) Note, They do not just regrind the cams for the EA82's. They weld up the lobe and grind the back side down the same amount as they build up the front. The cam case is the reason for this. If they just regrinded them the lift would not change and you wouldn't get much increase in duration either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steveman09 Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Yeah I went through the same CRAP with Delta over the shim issues, they never informed me about it so I dropped them in and fired it up, sounded like CRAP!!!! I called them back and they said "yeah you need shims, we'll send you the washers to fix it" So I waited a week, pulled the motor apart put there washers in, put it back together and guess what? a bunch of the lifters still clicking away, and I think IIRC 2 valves not closing (misfires) So at this point I was beyound pissed, so I had to tear back into it again. As it turns out the valve heights vary from valve to valve enough to make 1 size of shim not the solution, after about 2 more tear downs I got the magic clearances, which included dimes in the lifter bores. I did however run into another issue, over time (not much) 2 or 3 of my lifter bores got seriously damaged with there washers and the washers actually got POUNDED into the lifter bores in the head, I pulled little chunks out of the heads with a magnet!!!!! Those bores are forever ruined now with new clearance with the remaining fused washers in them, I got lucky enough tho that I could get it back to specs with some shaved dimes and all is finally well with the valvetrain. The only time I get ticks is in the morning for a little while until temp comes up and its not very loud, I can live with that! Basically shim everything up until you can BARLY and I mean BARLY wiggle the rockers (you shouldnt be able to see them move, you should only feel them have the littlest ammount of play) The power however is improved on the top end ALLOT, but the low-end power is completly gone compared to the stock cams, plus these stage3's need engine managment and bigger injectors to run right and the idle is lumpy and vacuum is usually around 12-15hg instead of 19-20hg with the stockers. I would only rec. this grind for a racing application as more low-end is needed for street driving which I sort of miss. Once you hit 4000rpm hang on tho, this cam screams from 4k until 7k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Has anyone asked Delta what the size of the shims should be? This shouldn't be hard to figure out if you know what the differences between the stock cam and ground cam are for height mins/max's. Someone there should be able to tell you *exactly*, in thousandths of an inch, what the thickness should be for your grind. This should eliminate the trial and error approach at least. After thinking on it, dimes would vary quite a bit in thickness - different production lines, and they are stamped rather than machined. But I would think that as long as you didn't go too thick (past the oil inflation passage in the head), the lifter should self adjust to correct height as long as you install it "tight". Probably would be beneficial to just use all new lifters. Delta quoted me $7 each for new lifters, but I didn't end up ordering any for my EA81. They are different lifters, but he didn't look up anything - just gave me an off-the-cuff answer of "about $7 each", so I couldn't imagine it would be much different. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steveman09 Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Has anyone asked Delta what the size of the shims should be? This shouldn't be hard to figure out if you know what the differences between the stock cam and ground cam are for height mins/max's. Someone there should be able to tell you *exactly*, in thousandths of an inch, what the thickness should be for your grind. This should eliminate the trial and error approach at least. After thinking on it, dimes would vary quite a bit in thickness - different production lines, and they are stamped rather than machined. But I would think that as long as you didn't go too thick (past the oil inflation passage in the head), the lifter should self adjust to correct height as long as you install it "tight". Probably would be beneficial to just use all new lifters. Delta quoted me $7 each for new lifters, but I didn't end up ordering any for my EA81. They are different lifters, but he didn't look up anything - just gave me an off-the-cuff answer of "about $7 each", so I couldn't imagine it would be much different. GD I was told the shims need to be .020' and thats what they sent me, but that didnt work out worth a crap, they really dont know much on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4x4_Welder Posted September 21, 2006 Author Share Posted September 21, 2006 Finally heard back from them on the EA81 cam, and their price isn't bad- $50 for a 250 duration cam and solid lifters. I didn't price out hydro lifters, both my current engine and the engine I am going to build are solid lifters, so no need there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenTBK Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 After reading all the issues people have had, its making me rethink the idea of swapping cams... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 After reading all the issues people have had, its making me rethink the idea of swapping cams... EA81's don't have these problems. No shimming required. With the hydro engines it's just drop in and go. But of course it's a LOT more work to install a hot cam in the EA81 in the first place. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 EA81's don't have these problems. No shimming required. With the hydro engines it's just drop in and go. But of course it's a LOT more work to install a hot cam in the EA81 in the first place. GD yah, thats cuz OHV== lawnmower engine.. just kidding, of course. i just had to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoostedBalls Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 The guy on the phone told me .035" !!! Now I'm a little worried about the cams. I'll check my spec sheet. I have a pair of turbo cams laying around that are stock. I'll measure the base circle of them and compare it to the Delta grind. The difference should be required spacer thickness. I'll post my findings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoostedBalls Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 But now that I hit "submit" it dawns on me that there might be more of a calulation needed to find the right thickness because the rocker has a ratio. Does anyone know the rocker arm ratio of our ea82 engines? The guy on the phone told me .035" !!! Now I'm a little worried about the cams. I'll check my spec sheet. I have a pair of turbo cams laying around that are stock. I'll measure the base circle of them and compare it to the Delta grind. The difference should be required spacer thickness. I'll post my findings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 I don't recall the ratio but the .035" sounds about right. Ideally, you want to measure a roll of dimes. You'll see that they differ by as much as .010". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4x4_Welder Posted September 22, 2006 Author Share Posted September 22, 2006 .035" isn't that much, really. You can get spacer shims in that size from most machine shops. If you are concerned about protecting the bores, you can mic out the bores, and get spacers that size or a couple thousandths under, so the don't have any room to move around. I'm keeping the solid lifters in mine, but there isn't any difference on the base circle, so just dial in the valve asjusters, and it'll be good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 .035" isn't that much, really.... Approximately the thickness of 5 "Business Cards"... ("back in the day", you could set points by using 2 business cards.) Isn't it amazing how an EA81 question turns into an EA82 angst-session??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 Approximately the thickness of 5 "Business Cards"... ("back in the day", you could set points by using 2 business cards.) Isn't it amazing how an EA81 question turns into an EA82 angst-session??? Even more amazing is seeing the same things get said over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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