phonebem Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 First off, hi everyone I'm new (first post in fact) so be nice if I can't make the most informed of questions. Earlier this summer I was driving along the interstate in my '93 Loyale wagon when suddenly the ignition quits. I tried a couple of times to bump start it while moving to no avail. Once I rolled to a stop, luckily I was going down a pretty steep hill, the engine would crank but not fire. As I said there was no hesitation, sputtering, shudder, engine grenading sounds, the engine just stopped as if I shut off the ignition. First I pulled off the distributor to see if the rotor would spin when I cranked... It did. Second I checked spark at the plugs... none. I didn't check for spark at the coil but I did replace it anyway because it looked pretty bad regardless and a new one was cheap. The distributor and rotor are about a year old. After all this I figued broken timing belt... Both are there, intact with correct timing. Please help me because I'm out of ideas. Is there a ballast resistor in the ignition that may have blown? I'm pretty much at a loss right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahDL88 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Have you checked voltage to the coil? and spark from the coil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Check your fuses. And there is an ingitor mounted to the coil bracket. Sometimes those go. Sounds like a fuse or something. You need to check spark, and coil power for starters. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 first, check the coil for spark. if you get no spark at the coil, check the voltage. if you get spark, then check for fuel. if you get spark, and fuel, and youve visually confirmed timing belts are both intact, then check your compression (although i doubt that would be your problem judging from your tale..) thats just the order of going thru things on a motor. good chance you'll figure something out in the coil, or something simple with fuel though. if youre a somewhat experienced amateur mechanic already, these cars are a breeze, and will train you in doing things you might think are utterly beyond your ability now :- ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phonebem Posted September 20, 2006 Author Share Posted September 20, 2006 Thanks, I would double check all of that now but we are having some serious crap weather right now and I'd really rather not be standing in a puddle checking coil voltages if you know what I mean... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Thanks, I would double check all of that now but we are having some serious crap weather right now and I'd really rather not be standing in a puddle checking coil voltages if you know what I mean... You would be perfectly safe unless you were standing in ocean salt water with bare feet.... GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 i hear you on the weather... i live in the everglades in south florida, and it rains here just about every afternoon in the summertime... although i suppose as of tomorrow thats over, technically.. not for us down here, not until mid december :cool: anyhow, just giving you tips on how to go through with everything. BTW, GD is probably right about that.. pure, plain, distilled water doesnt conduct electricity at all. however, unless its in a closed bottle marked "distilled water" its not ever that chemically pure :- ) it takes some sort of electrolyte dissolved in it to conduct electricity, but any free water is going to have electrolytes dissolved in it. thats the science of that situation. but for checking coil voltage with a multimeter, you COULD be standing barefoot i a puddle of seawater and you wouldnt hurt yourself, its only 12VDC. checking for SPARK in the hypothetical seawater puddle, is a different story. ouch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phonebem Posted September 21, 2006 Author Share Posted September 21, 2006 The funny thing is that this week has been the first real rain we've had in Utah since spring... Exactly when I need to work on my car ( the garage is too full of other toys). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 you COULD be standing barefoot i a puddle of seawater and you wouldnt hurt yourself, its only 12VDC. Don't try that one at home. Standing barefoot in as little as 12" of salt water.... as little as 1 amp will kill you if it goes the right direction. Voltage doesn't mean much. 1 volt and 1 amp can kill easily. Stun guns are VERY high voltage, and low current. Coil output is probably in the 20,000 to 40,000 volt range. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 So I could kill myself with a 9 volt battery if I stood in the ocean and put on wire in my mouth and one in the ocean? Grab the rotor and make sure it can't turn on it's shaft. I had the set screw fall out and it acted just like the car ran out of gas. Sputtered, then dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 So I could kill myself with a 9 volt battery if I stood in the ocean and put on wire in my mouth and one in the ocean? Theoretically, yes. But practically speaking no as the 9 volt doesn't have enough juice to push even close to 1 amp through you. *maybe* if you stuck it on your tongue, and stripped all the skin off your legs. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stickedy Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Another cause that the car won't start could be a damaged ECU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Welcome to the forum here. Hope you like it. There are some very savy troubleshooters to help you at this site. Good job looking at the rotor for signs of a broken timing belt. It is the first suspect for your kind of car trouble. Since that was ok then your next check should be to see if voltage is getting to both sides of the ignition coil. You will need a voltmeter or test light probe to check those points. If you have no voltage on the plus side of the coil then you need to need to check the fusible links that are in the plastic box mounted on the coolant reservoir. Make sure they are making good contact on both sides. If they are ok then the problem may be with the ignition switch connector in the steering column. Look for a burned connector in the plug. Also be sure fuse #5 is ok along with the others. If the horn works fuse #5 should be ok. Another possibility is a blown out ignitor. Let us know what you find out. If those things are ok we can check other areas. Edit: I forgot to mention that when checking the voltage at the coil you need to have the ignition switch set to ON or RUN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phonebem Posted September 21, 2006 Author Share Posted September 21, 2006 Excellent, the weather is clearing now and I'm getting the battery charged tonight (I accidentally left the dome light switch on... Dee dee-dee) so I'll try check everything tomorrow. I'm pretty sure all the fuses are good, they actually were the first things I checked but I'll check again to be sure. Another unrelated bit of news, I may be looking at a parts pig tomorrow too, I found a '92 with a questionable tranny with a supposedly good motor (donor) since I'm thinking I have a couple burnt exhaust valves in the pass. side bank from an exhaust leak. I'm betting the price for the donor is less than the price for parts/my time for a rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 there are four fusible links hanging from the driver's side front strut tower, just behind the battery. they need to be inspected as well. a fusible link is a high current fuse, in the form of a wire. the wire gets burned through. its something modern cars have gotten beyond for the most part, but they should be evenly flexible and feel right.. its a bit hard to describe, but not hard to recognize if ones burnt. theyre supposed to burn through, but hey, lifes funny sometimes. i personally have a problem on my car where occasionally, i try to start and get a bad power connection into the fusible link block.. this has the effect of removing the battery cable. i wiggle things, and get it to work. I'm planning on splicing a block out of the junkyard into the car as a long-term fix for this, but its a VERY occasional problem for me. you said you can crank the motor, so its obviously not the SAME as my little deal.. but if youre missing power at the coil, leave the test light on the + side of the coil and wiggle all the wires around the link block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phonebem Posted September 26, 2006 Author Share Posted September 26, 2006 OK I just got done doing more checks on the Subi. Yes the fuel pump relay kicks on, I don't have any voltage going to the coil or either green fusible link. All normal dash indicators come on and other 12V lights etc come on. All fuses in fuse block are OK along with all fusible links on the box on the washer fluid tank. (They were checked with an ohmmeter to be sure). Remember car still cranked (didn't do it tonight because I have the timing belt covers off along with the fan etc.) but it did untill I killed the battery. One thing I did notice was the condenser cap(acitor) acted funny, it held a constant resistance instead of building a resistance as it charged like a normal cap. I doubt this is the problem since 12V isn't getting there either. Does this help anyone get any closer to what is wrong with my car??? Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 I think you next check should be the ignition switch connection in the steering column. Look for a burned contact on one of the main wires in the connector. Check the voltage on both sides of the connector with the ignition on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 no wait, you said two fusible links arent getting power????? this is impossible, the power feed to all four fusible links is the same piece of metal. check for power on both sides of each fusible link. you WILL have power on one side of ALL of them, or you wont have power to any of them. if im wrong, then you need to unplug the fusible links themselves, and make sure you are testing for power to the feed side of the fusible link block. it sounds to me like you have two bad green fusible links. do you understand my point? theres a power wire soldered to a copper plate, that goes up to form the plug on one side of each fusible link. the other side of each fusible link plugs into a wire terminal connected to whatever circuit its connected to... so if you test for voltage on the hot side, you will get it one all terminals or none. if your testing by setting your probe down on the power feed side of the actual fusible link terminal (read: the piece of metal crimped onto the fusble link wire, instead of touching the metal that it plugs into) and not getting voltage, then for some reason, despite the fact that the metal on metal contact is RIGHT in front of you, its NOT making a contact. THAT is specifically what happens to my car to give it the DOA syndrome. I go and wiggle the back fusilble link (its green) on the engine side, and it works again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phonebem Posted September 26, 2006 Author Share Posted September 26, 2006 Sorry should have been bit more specific. The fusible link block had no power to it whatsoever. 0V on all links, this was measured by disconnecting one side then measuring the voltage across connections on the block. I do have continuity to the pos side of the battery but no voltage (lost ground somewhere). Dis-regard the previous post about the lack of voltage @ the coil, I was having a short-bus day and not measuring to ground, just across coil If I follow the big red wire from the link block the next component to check seems to be the ignition relay but I can't find the dang thing! The one layout diagram in my Haynes manual I have show it somewhere in the vicinity of the pass side rear wheel on a sedan. By the way I have a '93 loyale wagon w/EA82 and 5sp tranny if that helps. It seems the only two things it can be is the relay or the ECU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 Sorry should have been bit more specific. The fusible link block had no power to it whatsoever. 0V on all links, this was measured by disconnecting one side then measuring the voltage across connections on the block. I do have continuity to the pos side of the battery but no voltage (lost ground somewhere). Dis-regard the previous post about the lack of voltage @ the coil, I was having a short-bus day and not measuring to ground, just across coil If I follow the big red wire from the link block the next component to check seems to be the ignition relay but I can't find the dang thing! The one layout diagram in my Haynes manual I have show it somewhere in the vicinity of the pass side rear wheel on a sedan. By the way I have a '93 loyale wagon w/EA82 and 5sp tranny if that helps. It seems the only two things it can be is the relay or the ECU no power to the fusible link lbock whatsoever. that means, that the large wire going between the battery positive terminal, and your fusible link block, is likely your culprit. that, or your battery cable itself. replace the positive cable immediately. find the wire im talking about from the terminal to the fusible links... and check that intensely. go to the store with the old battery cable in hand, or measure the length, and find one the same length with a good heavy wire molded into the terminal for you to splice on to your fusible link power feed. this will fix your problem. as i said, the power feeds from the battery into the starter motor only through the BIG battery cable. that smaller cable on the positive terminal feeds the ECU, the fuel pump, the injector, the coil, the fans, the radio, the lights, the chimes and buzzers, the seatwarmers, the dual zone climate control, the wait... wait... okay you got my point. i dont know why, but i got a little carried away there... so anyhow turn the key to on, turn the stereo on and loud if you can (to know if the car wakes up) and wiggle that wire around as best as possible. invent new ways of wiggling it. make sure you pinch the wire with both hands, leaving half an inch between your hands.. and wiggle that half inch.. and slide that zone along the WHOLE length of that wire. if wiggling it around doesnt bring power back, then the battery cable or terminal is bad and needs the ten dollar replacement. If you replace and its STILL no good, then the wire going into the block, or the wire's connection with the block, is bad (like mine.) I had to do the nastiest hack of a soldering job you've ever seen to get mine to stay in well, but it makes a fairly good connection. the only trouble point i have now is the one fusible link that needs to be wiggled once every few months or so. I have a feeling if i managed to do a better job attaching the wire to the block, I wouldnt even have that problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phonebem Posted September 29, 2006 Author Share Posted September 29, 2006 OK I took the wire from the + terminal to tho block off, Cleaned it and put it back on and got continuity to the block (about 0.08 ohms I think) but I still don't have a spark or ignition, I followed the wire trail to the ignition relay hoping it was bad (who thought it would be a good idea to mount it BEHIND the ECU?) since it was looking like it was that, the diode from the ECO to the relay or the eek ECU. The relay looks like it works, I energized it and it flipped on for both sets of contacts. Do I have a bad ECU or should I start looking further down the ignition chain. Is there a sensor that I'm missing that may have failed that would have killed the ignition? One last thing... HAYNE'S MANUALS SUCK!!!! Sorry to yell but it's the truth, I found the relay in about 10 minutes after I bought a Chilton's today. I'll admit something didn't feel right about looking for an ignition relay in the rear of the car but sometimes older Japanese cars were just weird like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nvexplorer Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 you might want to check the wires around the ECU. I was pulling out at an intersection and just as I was letting the clutch out my loyale started sputtering and cutting in and out. Turned out to be two wires on the passenger side of the ecu that had damaged insulation due to the metal on the kick panel and the movement my foot causes when using the clutch. Got through the intersection and found the wires, taped em up and haven't had a problem since. Just two little wires almost had me stopped in the middle of an intersection. I'd say its worth a check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted September 30, 2006 Share Posted September 30, 2006 After checking your previous posts I wouldn't bother checking the ECU yet. Before you do that you need to see why you are not getting voltage to the coil's plus terminal. Make any voltage measurements with the reference lead of the meter to chassis ground. Check the voltage to the fusible links again and use chassis ground for you reference. You should have voltage to both sides of the links. If that is good then you need to check the ignition switch connector plug in the steering column. You may have a burned contact in the connector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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