Courtneys motor swap mess thread.

[SuBrat84]

Alright everything is in and whatnot.. brand "new" 2.2 from CCR. Everything is hooked up etc... It cranks.. it pumps fuel.. it doesn't start. I popped the wires off of the coil pack and it sparks very intermintently... not like consistant like it should. Would that be a sign of a bad coil pack? Computer not telling it to spark because something else is wrong? Bad computer? Bad sesnor somewhere? CCR put the timing belts on wrong?? I dunno but I've been told.. if I keep on wrenching I'll never grow old. Hey.. I'm delirious. Can you guys please point me in the right direction? Tomarrow I'm going to tear it down enough to get a look at those timing belts.. if that's not the problem.. I will be getting a new coil pack... if that's not the problem...???? Thanks everybody.

[Jerry DeMoss]

I would check the coil pack.I have heard of those going bad.Not very possible that the t-belts are on wrong if installed by CCR.They probly do those so often they could do it in their sleep.Check your grounds,check your plug wires,and your coil.Most likely you have something electrical.Good luck.

[SuBrat84]

Check your grounds,check your plug wires,and your coil.Most likely you have something electrical.Good luck.

 

Everything looks good.. it's all freshly installed.. I'm leaning towards the coil pack.. i tested for spark right at the pack and it was very weak and intermintant. I unpluged it and stuck my multimeter in the plug.. the one spot that was 12.5 with the key in the on position would drop below 10 while cranking the motor.. (with a live car hooked up for extra juice.) I don't know what kind of single that connector is sending into the coil pack.. but it seems to be okay.. This car was running before I Did that swap.. could the coil pack go bad from sitting for a week? It was supposedly replaced 15 months ago but ~10,000 miles.. so the car had been sitting a lot.

[svxpert]

is there spark coming from the spark plug wires?

[SuBrat84]

not any differently than the spark coming off of the coil pack. but yes very intermintently there is a spark..

[ShawnW]

If it ran before its probably a cam or crank gear mismatch. If so, you need to take the old crank and drivers side cam gear off the old engine and install to the rebuilt.

[SuBrat84]

If it ran before its probably a cam or crank gear mismatch. If so, you need to take the old crank and drivers side cam gear off the old engine and install to the rebuilt.

 

I need to do what?? How much work does that entail?

[cookie]

I'd look for a wire off. A cam or crank sensor being off causes a similar symptom.

[alexk02]

I had similar problem - forgot to plug in crank position sensor after changing t-belt. It cranks, but does not start.

[ron917]

Ditto what cookie said. The crank position sensor wire on my 2.5L DOHC was loose, not "clicked" into the connector. It stalled and ran bad intermittantly. It took me weeks to find the problem. The ECU doesn't necessarily throw a code if those sensors are "sort of" working, but it really does mess up the spark timing.

[cookie]

I'd like to say I've never left a wire or the big hose under the air cleaner off, but...

This seems to take the place of timeing the engine to the wrong cylinder like we used to do to frustrate ourselve with an engine swap. After you work on it for twelve hours and are in the dark except for a drop light you can make a lot of errors that clear right up with daylight and a good night's sleep.

[frag]

I'm also of the opinion that it could be the crank or cam sensor connection.

Good luck!

[SuBrat84]

would it be unusual for any of those sensors to go bad?? I've been over this motor 4 times now and everything is tight and re-connected three times over...

[cookie]

Possible, or wrong wire in the wrong place. Any chance it could have a different crank gear, or broken triggers?

[SuBrat84]

Possible, or wrong wire in the wrong place. Any chance it could have a different crank gear, or broken triggers?

 

How would I know? Where is the crank gear? I think Shawn suggested that is the problem.

[ShawnW]

Yes. You'd need to take the timing belt covers off both engines then visually compare the two gears I mentioned. The crank gear (center sprocket) is going to have 40 some teeth on it instead of 6 ears or vice versa and the drivers side cam gear will, on the back side, have 2 teeth that "talk" to the cam angle sensor instead of 5-6.

 

You need to put the kind that came off the old engine onto the new and then reset the timing belt.

[SuBrat84]

Oh. Okay I understand now. That makes a bit more sense and now I'm not all scared I had to open the motor. Thanks.

[SuBrat84]

Is doing the timing on this EJ22 like doing the timing on an EA82? Where one side is up and the other side is down, with all the weird turning of the motor, etc? Or should I just take the new crank "sprocket"? and cam sprocket off and replace them with the old ones (yes they are both different) and put the belt back on? By the way.. both cam sprockets are currently pointed down. Is that how it is supposed to be on this motor?

[ShawnW]

ARE YOU SURE you want to do this? You can do severe engine damage as this is an interference engine and you can void your warranty.

 

Timing belt instructions: USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!

 

Before you remove the belt set the crank. It needs to point such that the keyway on the crank is pointing down and that the mark on the crank sprocket is lined up with the little index mark on the oil pump at 12:00.

 

With the crank key pointed down the cam gears should be pointing so the ARROWS are at 2:00 or so and there is another mark on these gears that points to 12:00.

 

If all three are lined up properly check the tensioner. If its got a blue bearing its a 1 piece and needs to be recompressed on the engine to prevent damage to the tensioner. Compress it with a large prybar and then slide a pin into the holes when they are lined up. Likely a 2 person job and be careful of your fingers.

If the bearing isnt blue you have the 2 piece tensioner. Pull it with the 2 12MM bolts that hold it on and place in a bench vise. Gently and slowly (spend 3-5 minutes doing this to prevent damage to tensioner) compress till the holes line up and then bolt the tensioner back onto the engine but not all the way, leave it so its threaded to the block but not tight.

 

Next pull the belt. The cam (s) may jump so again watch fingers.

Do so by pulling only the cogged idler which is mounted to the water pump with a 14MM bolt.

 

Now, switch the gears from the old engine onto the new one.

 

Set everything to 12:00 again if you havent already.

 

Line all the marks on the belt up with the marks on the cam and crank sprockets. Dotted goes on the crank, solid on the cams and the SUBARU branding and part number should be readable from the front and not upside down.

 

With all the gears aligned with the marks take a 17 wrench and turn the cam on the drivers side of the engine clockwise to slack the belt and put the cogged idler back in. Do so by hand and get the bolt nice and tight.

Recheck marks (do so 10 times!!!) You can destroy the motor being off.

 

Depending on the tensioner you have...you need to tension the belt (like ea82).

If its the two piece you need to take a screwdriver on the tensioner and push it from your right to the left so its not touching the edge of the bracket anymore and then tighten the 12MM bolts. If its a 1 piece continue below.

Tension the belt by pulling the pin (check marks before you do). With it pulled you turn the drivers cam counterclockwise which should make the slack go away and the tensioner make it up.

 

Recheck marks again and then momentarily try to start the engine and shut it right back off just to make sure you have everything right before you put all the outer plastic and engine accessory belts back on. If something is wrong you might as well know now.

 

Call with questions you have my number.

[courtney]

i am confused, i thought i bought a non interference motor from ccr???? now you are saying it is interference and can be messed up?

and why wasn't this stuff done there or why weren't we at least warned this would be a possible problem and to check it before we put the motor in?

 

if this is so difficult are you suggesting we pull it back out and ship it back to ccr to get done?

 

i will e-mail ccr but they were not very good about answering e-mails before i bought the motor

[courtney]

please read the post before this too

 

ok i think we better all get on the same page before anything is done to the motor, i know i do not know what i am talking about really BUT i ordered a CUSTOM 2.2 MOTOR from ccr, it is supposed to be non interference but ccr also stated to me that they modify all their motors and make them non interference period???

this motor is not the normal 1999 2.2 but the old version made to go into my 1999 legacy car, i was under the impression the old version was better so ask to have this one made this way, it is bottom end old one and top end new one i think??? anyway i do not understand what the problem is and why this is happening, i have written ccr and ask them what we are supposed to do and why the motor was sent this way, we could have looked at the cam gears and told them what they looked like before they built it if someone had asked us to

 

does this make things clearer? and could it be something else instead of the cam gears?

[SuBrat84]

does this make things clearer? and could it be something else instead of the cam gears?

 

Courtney, The Crank sprocket and cam sprocket in question are SO INCREDIBLY DIFFERENT that I am 99.99% sure that this is the problem. I understand how to do the timing belts especially since Shawn just gave me a really good write-up about it. But I don't want to proceed without your permission, and want to see what CCR has to say about all this. Let me know if you hear anything from them.

 

Here is what CCR originally said about it:

 

Thank you for your inquiry.

The '99 EJ22 is a one year only engine, sort of a hybrid between the EJ22 and the EJ25 SOHC. The "bad" news is that an earlier EJ22 won't work with your intake manifold, the '95 EJ22 which is so popular for 2.5 conversions won't bolt up to your transmission or work with your exhaust, and it's doubtful that the wiring and ECU will work with it either.

The good news is that we can custom build a non-interferential version of the '99 EJ22 for you. (Incidentally, we retrofit all EJ22 engines so that they are non-interferential.)

A '99 EJ22 engine is $2495/exchange + shipping. If you would like a quote on shipping, I will need your zip code. Generally, non-residential shipping to Tucson should run about $165.

 

 

She didn't get her board member discount either. We're not trying to be negative here, but we have heard so many good things about CCR that this whole situation is kind of putting us off. So, can I do these belts without worrying about it? If I follow your directions to the letter and have my brother helping me, will the engine be safe? I know I can get everything lined up correctly, timing belts aren't that hard.. I just didn't know what the procedure was on this motor. So the Cam Sprockets ARE supposed to be pointed in the same direction? If the "cam might slip" when removing the belt.. couldn't that cause damage if it's interference?

 

I'm sorry for all of this Courtney, we'll get it straightened out and have this car running great for you!!

-Eli-

[ccrinc]

I think I need to jump in here and clarify things a bit for everyone.

We did build a custom engine at customers request to make it as non-interferential as possible.

It is not possible to make ALL engines we build non-interferential: we do refit the '97-98 EJ22 engines to be so however.

Problems like this are one of the reasons we prefer to actually talk to someone when they are ordering an engine. I only talked to one person, who knew practically nothing about the car.

 

THIS ALSO A NOTE TO PEOPLE WHO PREFER USED 1999-UP ENGINES:

You need to be sure that the one you are getting matches the one you have!

 

1999 was a year of many changes. The Subaru factory manuals are about as clear as mud on this subject. Supposedly, if it's a California car, the crank sprocket is the 23 tooth: the 6 tooth is non-California. HOWEVER, in 2000 this changed to whether it's manual or automatic transmission.

Couple with this that the timing belt and left cam gear also differ.

 

What's frustrating for us is that even with all the resources we have at hand, following the alledged "rules" isn't always a 100% guarantee that the configurations will match, especially if you're not the original owner and can be certain there have been no swap outs, upgrades or modifications.

The only certain way to match these up is to take the front of the old engine apart prior to ordering, and let us know what you have. Since I didn't have info on who was actually doing the swap or where the car was, nor how to contact them, (I had a delivery address only) it became "follow the manual" and make our best determination based on what info we had.

 

Emily

http://www.ccrengines.com

[cookie]

If it were me I'd clear any changes with CCR. They have the engine warranty so it seems they should be responsible.

[avk]

The "Phase 2" changes were outlined in Endwrench, http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/FuelEmissionsWin00.pdf

The problem seems to be that the changeover occurred gradually during the model year. But apparently a number of other components changed along with the cam and crank gears, so the two kinds of engines shouldn't be so hard to tell apart. Pictures of the sprockets here: http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/Crankshaft.pdf

I admit it's not quite clear if the two sets of changes are actually related.