bgd73 Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 Upon a new alternator over a year and a half ago in my 93 2wd.. there was an event I shrugged off. Smoke came from the cluster of wires feeding top of engine and all the gadgets after the very first start up with new alternator. Today, looking over things like a maytag repair man on my ea82 that won't die, I found a melted spot right where I remember the smoke coming from 18 months ago. It runs great, I have even been on long trips. I took the harness out of the Subaru and took off the outer protective cover. the damage was done to the TPS plug-in wire, and never went all the way through. I went over every inch of the cables individually and sure enough, it is as good as the engine running.I retaped the outer covering with electrical tape. So, assuming I encountered yet another "bizarre invisible" unexplainable, I went ahead and put the harness back in away from the intake manifold (above it -routed between the fuel line, and return fuel line, behind a/c compressor, more towards the top now)... and guess what? It takes off even faster. Anyone explain? Is there such a thing as bleeding wires without obvious errors because of heat and other unknowns? My Loyale is reminding me much of an old PC I had that wasn't run on a UPS (ups keeps the system clean and stable). Has anyone put monster capacitors anywhere in reference to what I am trying to explain? I have had great luck with resistors in places that have failed, including ECU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeshoup Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 If the wire isn't shielded and wasn't touching anything else with a different potential (IE: grounding out to the block...), there shouldn't be any reason that retaping it and rerouting it would make a difference. Perhaps maybe there's a slight short in one of your wires, and you bending it by rerouting it moved the wire into a better position so that there's less resistance through it. Or, its all in your head. (And if you think running a UPS makes a computer run more stable and 'cleaner', you're crazy.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 i think he meant that the PC would end up with "cleaner" power.. fewer surges and spikes in voltage and amperage etc etc, a cleaner sine wave to the alternating current. and if you say that cant make a computer run better, then you need to research your microprocessor function better.. because the machine is designed to run at 115VAC, 60hz. no more, no less. the power supply puts out a function of the power supplied, and the power going thru the circuitry/CPU/etc is affected by the differences in your line power. a UPS would serve as surge protector/spike elminator, as well as a capacitor and regulator of output power. they are more than just batteries, after all. people are selling devices for cleaning the power to plug your stereo and home theater into know for an arm and a leg... they tell you on the front exactly what voltage is being put out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeshoup Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 Okay, this is a major threadjack but: The input voltage doesn't matter because the power supply is converting the power. No microporocessor will run on 110VAC. The power supply drops the voltage, and converts it to D/C. Power supplies are meant to be able to handle power surges, losses, etc. The power supply has large capacitors in it for that sort of thing. The power in the computer labs I work in isn't necessarily 'stable'. We go through major brown outs where the power gets really low. The computers aren't phased, and they're not on a UPS unit. Sure, the neon open sign stops working, the overhead lights get real dim, but we can all huddle around the warm glow of the LCD monitors that still work. The only advantage to using a UPS is that if the power were to go out, the computer can still run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted October 11, 2006 Author Share Posted October 11, 2006 If the wire isn't shielded and wasn't touching anything else with a different potential (IE: grounding out to the block...), there shouldn't be any reason that retaping it and rerouting it would make a difference. Perhaps maybe there's a slight short in one of your wires, and you bending it by rerouting it moved the wire into a better position so that there's less resistance through it. Or, its all in your head. (And if you think running a UPS makes a computer run more stable and 'cleaner', you're crazy.) Can you explain the battery acid smelling stuff and light blue fog that dissipated? It wasn't even a short circuit. A quick stinkin puff, and back "on the road again".It was immediately on the very first run , on brand new alternator, replacing one that had only 1 functioning brush. I can assume the car was eating the battery to maintain demand.I associated it with egr pig and bad alternator.I have ignored it successfully. I even had the ice blue crud you may see on battery posts show up on wheel studs.Wires that get warm don't like it- it pushes it away to a place that takes it.I have had other cars do this too upon a decade+ of wrong volts from alternator. Even an old house can burn mysteriously from this without preventative.It could be the outside world as a factor- even trees have it. I'm on my 6th home built pc, please don't doubt my integrity about ups's. The 1950's two wire housing seems to prevail here- it stinks for a new pc, especially if house has never had one. I have even had the hard drive leds you see blink transferring to house light bulbs, on two wire systems, before I was explained what to do. UPS is best bet, if you can't rewire the house.The "third wire" or neutral is very important. Simply a ground for things unplanned. Cars hardly have one. I have thought of a few spots for larger capacitors then ecu,to place in the car, but it would probably interfere with pulses of time. Keeping it all airtight with the electrcal tape seems good enough given the years accrued...so I will leave it all alone. There was a similar learning experience for me when I ran cables at a local university. They were still using stuff from the 1960's. Gigantic cables that fiber really took over with minimal space. The bad cables all smelled like batteries or other bizarre odors when cut, or worked with, and kept working anyway. A car is even more susceptible to these kinds of infections without enough air. The loyale ea82's are perfect candidates being as restricted as they are with a simple thing called air. I conquered mine, have you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted October 11, 2006 Author Share Posted October 11, 2006 I posted the simple fix on my website. The 2wd woes struck again. I said it was a lunatic, and I mean it. http://93loyale.com/wirin.html Don't blame your gadgets just yet for a strange running spfi.. really look the wires over. I may change it out entirely after figuring the guages of it. I did notice at the end near battery, there is a chance for physical interaction with chemistry.. the battery is quite close to it. I am assuming that is origin of problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 the power supply puts out a function of the power supplied, and the power going thru the circuitry/CPU/etc is affected by the differences in your line power. ....... people are selling devices for cleaning the power to plug your stereo and home theater into know for an arm and a leg... they tell you on the front exactly what voltage is being put out. I know exactly what the power supply in my PC is, its a transformer; I have rebuilt and repaired various transformers in the past. It is not outputting the same DC voltage at varying input voltages... it only supplies a steady flow of electrons when it is supplied a steady flow. "puts out a function of the power supplied"<-- I was trying not to be too long-winded.. as the input voltage/amperage varies, so does the output voltage, which is what is feeding your CPU and motherboard, and all peripherals. The UPS is much more than a battery, it is a point source stransformer that, inherent in its design, takes an input voltage, transforms it, buffers it, and puts out a steady, constant flow (amperage) at a steady, constant voltage. Hence, your power supply, and entire PC, is also getting.. a steady, constant (well, TWO of them, five and twelve, but who's counting) voltage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 I know exactly what the power supply in my PC is, its a transformer; I have rebuilt and repaired various transformers in the past. It is not outputting the same DC voltage at varying input voltages... it only supplies a steady flow of electrons when it is supplied a steady flow. "puts out a function of the power supplied"<-- I was trying not to be too long-winded.. as the input voltage/amperage varies, so does the output voltage, which is what is feeding your CPU and motherboard, and all peripherals. The UPS is much more than a battery, it is a point source stransformer that, inherent in its design, takes an input voltage, transforms it, buffers it, and puts out a steady, constant flow (amperage) at a steady, constant voltage. Hence, your power supply, and entire PC, is also getting.. a steady, constant (well, TWO of them, five and twelve, but who's counting) voltage. That is close to the simple way I would explain it. The pc power is quite small in thought.. when volts are dropped for pc internals, amps go up, hence all the things we can plug in on low volts. The source that gives the reduced volts/ higher amps is ridiculous(always has been). A UPS is a must have, just for the sense of "larger" power, same volts outputted. I have taken surges, and kept running in lightning storms. Only the ups with the battery works for me, there is other stuff, but not nearly as good. The car I would assume is the same when it comes to the battery. Make it a good battery and functoning alternator is about all one can do. I wonder what 12v straight from battery to ecu would do....I know the ecu has regulators, and the battery is very stable. I wonder if alternator refeeding the battery on its regulators would kill the battery. There are newer radios that demand hook up straight to battery, I have assumed it uses it for more than the memory and clock, for stable source, like a circuit board on low volts would demand. Probably an overthought. The loyale is going on 14 and still working the ecu. The problems created were from heat, wiring going bad . Plug wires go bad and in my car, it seems any wire can go bad. No surprise to me to get strange stuff happening as a result of wires not even broken or other oprimitive out loud common sense event even a caveman could comprehend. See it, smell it, believe it. <- Doesn't even need a volt meter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 and guess what? It takes off even faster. Anyone explain? Moving the harness causing a change. I had a problem with one of my EA-82s a while back. After traceing & testing, etc. I found that one wire in the harness was intermittant. Bend it one way, Ok, bend the other way, open! I un taped, looked over the wire in question. Nothing obvious. But I felt a funny spot - where the wire, inside the insulation, was broken off! All the strands, at the same place. I spliced the bad spot, and all's well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted October 13, 2006 Author Share Posted October 13, 2006 Moving the harness causing a change. I had a problem with one of my EA-82s a while back. After traceing & testing, etc. I found that one wire in the harness was intermittant. Bend it one way, Ok, bend the other way, open! I un taped, looked over the wire in question. Nothing obvious. But I felt a funny spot - where the wire, inside the insulation, was broken off! All the strands, at the same place. I spliced the bad spot, and all's well. I have been second thoughts all day about that.Examining every inch isn't the whole cluster, as that is what I did. I can definately guess a hidden problem near tps. Maybe I can get a throttle man and wiggle wires while it is cold. I still have burps and hesitation until engine is really warm, when a bad wire could flow better. I am almost glad you found a unique problem, I will be taking it apart again. Bent a bit differently now has helped, but there is something not correct. I really smoked those wires for several seconds after a new alternator unexplainable, yet engine kept running- over 18 months ago. Bizarre. No short circuits obvious where I ran my fingers over the cluster, and it does cure itself when warm. :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 and it does cure itself when warm. :-\ This made me think of the temperature sensor. It would screw up the ECU mixture / etc. If it were reading "normal operating temp" constantly. I don't get the smoke without finding melted insulation somewhere. Kind of hard to get smoke w/o burning something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted October 13, 2006 Author Share Posted October 13, 2006 This made me think of the temperature sensor. It would screw up the ECU mixture / etc. If it were reading "normal operating temp" constantly. I don't get the smoke without finding melted insulation somewhere. Kind of hard to get smoke w/o burning something. I did melt the outer cover, and that is where I thought it stopped. (here is photo) http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/photos/showphoto.php?photo=13165&limit=recent The temp sensor may be it, but it is way too intermittent , fast like, and only from a take off when cold/very cold, once well past tps trigger,into a roll, I can really get after the throttle with clean reply at any temp of engine. I will attack the tps wiring tomorrow real closely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrysteele77 Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 was it a NAPA alt. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted October 13, 2006 Author Share Posted October 13, 2006 was it a NAPA alt. ? nope. Advance auto. It is very stable, as some of us know an old sube can peacefully idle below 200rpm sometimes, and it never flickers the lights. (That is my new alternator in an old sube test) . I verified this morning the cable is truly ok. the burps must be dirty system. Cold engine needs more fuel, and my car doesn't like giving it. I did get some black carbon showing rich when punching it while cold into 6k rpm, to show me it is dirty. I put some fuel system cleaner in and it runs perfect, until the cleaner goes away. I can tell when it is burned out of the system as it goes back to the same anomoly when cold. I won't take it seriously, it is staying dynamical beyond any carb I have run on any engine.Keep adding cleaners I guess, the wires are good.The filter is napa for the fuel... and I don't know what else to do. I have taken spfi apart entirely, out of engine, and cleaned, as well as engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 have you run some seafoam thru it by feeding it into a vacuum line yet? that really is the most effective use of that stuff, as it penetrates the entire crankcase.. anywhere that sees crankcase vacuum anyhow... you let it soak into the carbon buildups for a few minutes and fire her up, rev/drive it thru all the nasty black smoke from the junk built up inside your engine, and voila its clean as a whistle. i keep asking about information on a repeat performance, as I have never done one shortly after another.. so I dont know if its worth it to treat again in short order or not, but i have NEVER seen a car get the treatment that didnt burn off a WHOLE lot of black stuff afterwards.. alot more than can be accounted for simply by the addition of the seafoam itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted October 14, 2006 Author Share Posted October 14, 2006 have you run some seafoam thru it by feeding it into a vacuum line yet? that really is the most effective use of that stuff, as it penetrates the entire crankcase.. anywhere that sees crankcase vacuum anyhow... you let it soak into the carbon buildups for a few minutes and fire her up, rev/drive it thru all the nasty black smoke from the junk built up inside your engine, and voila its clean as a whistle. i keep asking about information on a repeat performance, as I have never done one shortly after another.. so I dont know if its worth it to treat again in short order or not, but i have NEVER seen a car get the treatment that didnt burn off a WHOLE lot of black stuff afterwards.. alot more than can be accounted for simply by the addition of the seafoam itself. http://www.seafoamsales.com/motorTuneUpTechGas.htm I found this stuff, I am assuming to be the stuff. Seems like a great idea. Cleaners are almost keeping up, but this seafoam goes for a bit more volume to really clean it out by its own instructions. It is difficult sometimes telling the difference of wires and just old dirty engine. Given the intake is spotless, it must be a dirty engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 yeppers, thats it. I am bookmarking that page to link to in the future, thanks for saving me some typing works as advertised.. alot of garages/shops have their own proprietary brands of a similar product that they use for periodic maintenance on cars... i was at my brothers shop fixing the timing belt on the soob when i got it (thats why i got it) and saw them doing it.. I asked if it was a seafoam treatment they were doing and they said it was basically the same stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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