ron917 Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 It took me 5 hours to get home from work today, it usually takes 1 hour. Most of that time was spent waiting for the tow truck . The car is a 99 Outback with the infamous 2.5 DOHC, 118K miles. I heard a muffled chirping sound, I didn't even think it was coming from my car. Within 30 seconds, it grew sligthly louder, there was a mild shudder, and I lost all power. When I opened to hood to inspect, I found a piece of the rear timing belt cover and a chunk of cam sprocket sitting on the passenger side head. Not a good sign. I haven't torn into it yet. I'll take the timing belt cover off tomorrow for a better look. My guess is the camshaft siezed, or maybe the sprocket came loose. I'm assuming the engine is trashed. Head gaskets and valve work were done in February at 105K miles. All the usual stuff was replaced - timing belt, tensioner, water pump, seals, sealed the oil pump, etc. It was all done at an independant shop with a good reputation, using genuine Subaru parts. The car has run fine since then, until today. Besides the head gaskets and related stuff back in February, I put on a new sway bar, new tires and new struts all in the last month. If I have to replace the engine (I would go with CCR), my total repair expenditures for this year will be very close the value of the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Before you open it up, I'd contact the shop and see what they will do for you. If they are a good shop, they should stand behind their work. If it was a part failure, that they could not see, they would not be at fault but they may still help you some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njdrsubaru Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 i'm in NJ as well, which shop is that?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Maybe the cam sprocket bolt backed out? If so I'd say the shop is responsible as they would have removed them to replace the cam seals. Does the dohc have those carbon fiber type cam sprockets, if so maybe it was damaged in the process of R&R? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Yes the cam sprockets are the carbon fiber type - at least the ones in my '96 2.5L are. The most probable cause is failure to get good torque on the sprocket bolt, especially since the failure happened with less than 20K miles since the work was done on it; if so then the shop should make good for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted October 13, 2006 Author Share Posted October 13, 2006 I took the right timing belt cover off. The intake cam sprocket is shattered. The bolt is firmly attached, it did not work loose. The right intake camshaft is siezed, I cannot turn it with a wrench (the right exhaust camshaft turns easily). Everyone seems quick to blame the shop that worked on it in February. I find it difficult to link this issue with work that was done more than 12,000 miles ago. I guess it's possible, but without a teardown, I'm not ready to assign blame. What caused the camshaft to sieze is anyone's guess at this point. The oil level is at the full mark, so it's not that. No sign of coolant in the oil. Could be foriegn matter in an oil galley. Maybe my oil pump died. Maybe the cam bearing caps were mixed up or improperly torqued, but I think that would have been a problem before now. Is there any way to assess the internal state of this engine without pulling the heads off? I can't even do a compression test with the engine in its current state. Next week, I'll be calling CCR to get a price on a rebuilt motor. I'll also call the shop (Broadway Automotive) to see what they have to say. Then, I'll decide whether to repair or replace the car. Here's two pictures of the external damage: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/photos/showphoto.php?photo=13170&cat=500&ppuser=4193 http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/photos/showphoto.php?photo=13168&cat=500&ppuser=4193 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Well, everyone was trying to make you feel better -- since we don't wish a "self destruct" on anyone. Unfortunately, if the bolt is still firmly attached (and the cam sprocket didn't just work itself loose) then you are correct -- it isn't likely to be anything the shop did, unless they left gunk in there that circulated around and eventually plugged an oil galley or hung a lifter. Bummer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 To answer your questions, I don't think anything short of a teardown will tell you exactly what went wrong, but I strongly suspect that you'd be better off with an engine swap than trying to rebuild what you have. In my experience, when a camshaft is seized as yours is, likely everything in that head will have to be replaced, and also likely that you'll find pieces of a valve embedded in the top of a piston or two. Also, I suppose it's possible that the cam sprocket bolt was overtorqued when the sprocket was re-installed. That might have cracked the sprocket which ultimately led to what you've found. Still, since this is engine is an interference design, you'll have to do a teardown to see if anything inside was irreparably damaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avk Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Could it be that they held the sprocket with some type of huge pliers and just cracked it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svxpert Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 <<Could it be that they held the sprocket with some type of huge pliers and just cracked it?>> thats a good thought being that i have seen alot of posts on how people "hold" the pulley with some type of strap wrench instead of the correct tool. its funny how subaru could have saved money and used a strap type wrench holding them on while instaling them, instead of having a company produce a specific tool to hold the pulleys. makes you kinda say hmmm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericem Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 It does make u say hmm eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrturbo Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 about the only way you are gonna be able to tell is an air holds valve. you can hook it up like a compression tester and hook your air hose up and listen for air leaks through the intake and exhaust. i hate to be the one to sh** in your cheerios but the same exact car i tore down on thurs was slightly hit and nothing even came close to touching the cam covers and some how from the impact or something it broke the drivers side exhaust gear. and now the heads are at the machine shop with 4 bent valves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpasco Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 Un fortunatly with subaru most of the time with somethign like that, the piston has proubably ben the valves if not more, but there are some sucess stories about it not doing any damage or just bendign the valves. Im assuming it has to do with the rpms at the time of damage. Its hard to say what happoned, but i think you are rignt about it not being the shop. I dont think it has happoned, but has anything hit the car at all? other cars? Rocks? Was it freezign temps outside? Your options now are to rebuild yoru current engine or do a engine swap. If you do a engine swap you can do another dohc engine ( lots of money and hard to find)!!! or do a 2.5 sohc engine (cheeper and easier to find but still have problems ) Or do a older 1.8l (easier to find, cheeper, not as much power, 10 times better engine) but you will have to do a little more work to get it in your car, but if you plan on keeping the car, consider it. thats just my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a97obw Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 IF the shop used something such as a large screwdriver to pry the camshaft pulley off the cam, they may have left a "stress riser" mark on the plastic pulley. If you can find all the parts to the pulley and do a "forensic investigation" you might find such a mark. That being said, the best way to remove the plastic camshaft pulleys is to lightly tap them with a rubber mallet, and when you reinstall them the ONLY way to hold the camshaft is via a large wrench on the hex shape of the camshaft itself--NOT the plastic pulley! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted October 17, 2006 Author Share Posted October 17, 2006 I'm sure that the camshaft siezing caused the spocket to break, and not the other way around - I just can't see how that would happen. I've seen siezed camshafts in other engines, including a Toyota and a Volvo, but those weren't interference engines, so repairs were much cheaper. I spoke with Emily at CCR today. Depending on actual shipping costs and whatever else I decide needs replacing, I can have a warranteed rebuilt engine for a bit over $3000, doing the work myself. A used engine would be much cheaper, of course, but it carries a lot of risk. The 2.5L DOHC isn't Subaru's most reliable motor, I don't think I could trust a used one. A 2.2 or 2.5 SOHC conversion might be possible, but then I have to get all of the right parts and piece it together - lots of time, and still some risk. I've sunk nearly $3000 into the car already this year (head gaskets and valve work, struts, tires, sway bar, coil pack, wires, and normal maintenance). Edmunds says my car (with a good engine) would sell for $6500 at a dealer, $5500 private sale. So this becomes a tough choice. I expect my cars to last for at least10 years/200K miles. I can spend the money to fix this car and gamble that I won't have another major problem in the next 3 years or so. Or, I can use the money as a downpayment on a new(er) car, and be stuck with car payments for 3-4 years, but no major repair costs until the warrantee runs out. But all of those car payments can buy a LOT of parts.... Decisions, decisions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpasco Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 ops i ment 2.2 l for the swap not the 1.8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpasco Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 where are you located? Would you be willing to sell the car as it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Maybe instead of "DOHC" it should be called the 2.5L "POS". It doesn't happen anywhere as often as the infamous head gasket failures, but the 2.5L DOHC is known to suffer from camshaft failure. The oil channels in this engine supplying the camshafts are extremely narrow. They are very easily occluded by even a very small piece of debris. Did the debris come from the head gasket work? Who knows? This many miles after the repair work it's unfair to point a finger at the shop. Anyway, depending on how well the search functions on this board, you should be able to find other people posting on this same problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted October 17, 2006 Author Share Posted October 17, 2006 where are you located? Would you be willing to sell the car as it is? I'm in NJ. The most likely scenario is a rebuilt engine, but if I decide on a new car (or win the lottery), I'll for sure post an ad here on USMB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted October 17, 2006 Author Share Posted October 17, 2006 The oil channels in this engine supplying the camshafts are extremely narrow. They are very easily occluded by even a very small piece of debris. Emily at CCR said the same thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech1967 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 My word ain't gospel but I'm a dealer tech. I'd bet money the squeal was the bearing on your toothed idler seizing. Did one last week. Just bought another that someone didn't want to fix. Idler packs it in, belt stops dead, crank wraps up the belt before ripping the teeth off. Busted intake pulley, probably cracked exhaust pulley. Mostly the machine shop checks the head and replaces a few valves for me. Bad sign if your cam is stuck though. You have to check all the idlers and the tensioner really well anytime you have the cover and timing components off. Any noise, play or grease evident and they get replaced. Good luck, maybe it isn't too bad. $800 canadian just for the parts behind the cover though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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