'98 OBW needs major engine work - advice?

[Shady Bimmer]

I picked up a '98 Outback Wagon about a month and a half ago. The original owner had no service records but claimed it was serviced on schedule at his local dealer. I was able to get a good price because of the unknown state.

 

CEL came on last week and the engine ran very poorly. This was diagnosed as misfire on cyl 3 & 4. I had planned on getting the car checked out anyway (this wasn't possible before the sale, which helped with the price as well).

 

First, Head gasket(s) blown. I actually expected this and was ready to accept this additional cost. There appears to be no oil contamination yet. Lower-end damage is unknown but the service department doesn't expect any.

 

Front seal leaking - I would have done with the head gaskets, along with the water pump.

 

All four camshaft seals are leaking. Valve cover gaskets leaking (I didn't see this, but I didn't check the underside that well where the leaks would be noticible).

 

The spark plug wires are not in great condition, despite the fact that a "major service" had been performed only two months (or so) earlier. This was the service that the seller claimed the timing belt was changed in - but I seriously question that and the service department is recommending I change it (I don't think it is worth the risk and I agree). Plugs & Wires should be replaced based on their condition (Service dept quoted almost $300 for plugs/wires - IMO Ridiculous price and I should be able to do better on my own but should I bother?)

 

The grand total is roughly $1700 plus tax. I was figuring no more than $1500. :boohoo:

 

The clutch doesn't feel right and the service dept. is claiming that it is an early sign of wear from TO bearing (They mentioned the transmission case and not the shaft which seemed odd to me). I don't need to do anything now but I shouldn't expect a tremendous amount of mileage from it.

 

[*]Do I spend the $$ on the engine now and worry about the tranny when the time comes (I don't expect to put more than 8-10K mi on it each year but there will be some long trips)?

[*]Do I abandon all work, accept the loss, and sell it cheap (I'm not the kind of person that would dump this on someone unsuspecting)?

[*]Do I find another engine from a wreck (or something similar) and work with that?

[*]Something else?

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I'm leaning towards the first option but want to make sure I'm not headed down a long path of dumping fundage into a lost cause. Can I expect another 5 years/50K miles without additional major expense?

 

While I'm undertaking this major endeavor, is there anything else that should be done?

[JBRIII]

I'd say get it fixed. We had some cam seals on my wife's 96 OB fixed 2 years ago and no leaks since. They have to take off the Timing Belt anyway to do the other work. The belt itself is $30.

 

As for the plugs and wires, I did them this weekend. I got a set of Bosch wires for $85 and NGK plugs for another $40. Crawled uder the front and had all four swapped out in 30 minutes.

 

Have them do the major work if concerned about price, then buy the plugs/wires and do them yourself and save $180.

 

Good Luck,

 

John

[alias20035]

If you got a good deal on the car I would spend the money to correct it. Even a good working Subaru of the same age and mileage as yours is likely to encounter the same problems as yours shortly, so trading in for a new one that might have the very same problems shortly is not wise.

 

Just be sure to do the work at an independent Subaru specialist.

 

All of your seals, gaskets, timing belt, etc issues can be performed easily during the head gasket repair, and in general are not expenive parts.

 

Cam, crank and valve cover seals are common failures.

 

Your misfire could be due to the head gasket, so do that first and do both sides!! Driving with a blown head gasket is very bad!!! Blown head gaskets lead to cylinder overheating (which does not always indicate on the temperature guage), which causes detonation which can be confused with misfire.

 

Your misfire could be due to a bad coil pack which is also quite common. They are expensive from dealers, but you can obtain one from a scrapyard (at least to eliminate the coil pack as the cause). I am not aware of aftermarket coilpacks, but they probably exist. Other posters might know. The coilpack has two banks and fires spark plugs in pairs, 1&2 and 3&4, so it is likely that the 3&4 bank is bad.

 

A clutch that doesn't feel quire right is Subaru normal cluch behaviour, is this your first Subaru?. The throwout bearing is probably bad, but my old 93 Legacy had a bad throwout bearing for more than 100,000km. I was going to change the bearing when the clutch started to slip, but it never did. I am not sure why the dealer would mention transmission case, unless the pivot point of the release fork is bad. In any case, deal with the clutch later, since an eminent failure is unlikely. Be sure to adjust the clutch free play, since this can often correct the feel of the clutch.

 

If your misfire is still present after the head gasket and coil pack install new sets of spark plugs and wires. It may be prudent to change the plugs and wires during the head gasket repair since they have to come off anyways. Most wires that look bad are actually ok.

 

Aftermarket wires ($40) are available. I bought NGK wires are Canadian Tire for $40 for my Legacy. Other than being black they were identical to the OEM wires.

 

Changing plugs is easy, just remove the windshield washer tank and air intake for easy access, change the plugs with the engine cold (like in the morning), and use a spark plug that does not require gapping (such as the Bosch Platinum +4). Be sure to torque them correctly. Get a Chilton or Haynes Subaru service manual for complete instructions ($20).

 

Some misfires are due to an oversensitive knock sensor, and installing a rubber washer between the engine block and the sensor will correct this problem.

 

Other sensors causing misfire could be the thermal sensor, cam angle sensor, crank angle sensor, but you always get multiple codes in the computer if one of these fail, usually with misfire being one of them, so this is unlikely. Thermal sensors are cheap ($40) and are common failures, cam and crank sensors are not so common.

 

Any engine you find in a scrap yard should be rebuilt with new head gaskets, seals, etc. Not because they are bad, but because the condition is unknown and replacing the parts is so easy with the engine out. So unless you have a bad lower end, which I agree with your dealers assessment that it is unlikely, I would fix the engine currently in the car.

 

If your clutch is bad, I would pull the engine out since you can either drop the tranny or pull then engine to do a clutch. With the other engine work pulling the engine would be to best course of action.

 

In general it is corrosion and accidents that end the life of Subaru's. Even badly treated Subaru's are usually able to be nursed back to health and lead a very long life. I have nursed two back to life myself.

 

You should be able to get this work done easily for $1500 or less. Add $500 for the clutch if done separately, and perhaps $400 if done at the same time. Price will vary if the engine is pulled, since the clutch is a 20-30 minute job with the engine out (aside from having the flywheel resurfaced).

 

My preferred Subaru shop does head gaskets for $850 Canadian, and clutches for $560. Add 30 minutes labour and $60-100 for the extra seals. Labour and part costs seem to be much higher in the US than in Canada for some reason.

[Shady Bimmer]

Originally posted by alias20035

If you got a good deal on the car I would spend the money to correct it. Even a good working Subaru of the same age and mileage as yours is likely to encounter the same problems as yours shortly, so trading in for a new one that might have the very same problems shortly is not wise.

I was thinking something similar

 

Cam, crank and valve cover seals are common failures.

That is what I was wondering.

 

Your misfire could be due to the head gasket, so do that first and do both sides!! Driving with a blown head gasket is very bad!!!

It wasn't even a question about not doing this. If any work was to be done this would be first. I had actually expected this. The other parts and additional labor (however minimal) did start to add up though and I wanted to be sure if I went all out I wouldn't be making a mistake.

 

The coilpack has two banks and fires spark plugs in pairs, 1&2 and 3&4, so it is likely that the 3&4 bank is bad.

That is what I was thinking, but I guess I'll need to get everything else taken care of first.

 

A clutch that doesn't feel quire right is Subaru normal cluch behaviour, is this your first Subaru?.

I had seen some reports about clutches but not many. I'm not really that worried about it now but I was just curious if it could be a common problem.

 

This is my first Subaru, but my family has three and two friends have four more. My previous car was an '85 Saab 900S with the 8V engine. I did all the work on it myself and even kept the body in pristine condition to go with mechanical condition, but a back injury is limiting my ability to do this now.

 

The throwout bearing is probably bad, but my old 93 Legacy had a bad throwout bearing for more than 100,000km. I was going to change the bearing when the clutch started to slip, but it never did. I am not sure why the dealer would mention transmission case, unless the pivot point of the release fork is bad. In any case, deal with the clutch later, since an eminent failure is unlikely. Be sure to adjust the clutch free play, since this can often correct the feel of the clutch.

My Saab had over 200K miles on it, of which 60K (mostly local/city) were put on with a failing TO bearing. In the past 10K I started to get significant clutch chatter so it was only a matter of time before it went. On saabs the worst you'd get (unless the bearing siezed!) was scoring around the shaft from vibration, but usually not enough to warrant replacement. I was curious if there are other common failures in Subaru clutches that I should be aware of.

 

I've got a hydraulic clutch (I thought this was standard on OBWs?) so adjustment isn't possible. I do know of the service campaign for the master and on other hi-mile vehicles a reuild here always helped. It's already on my list of TODOs when the weather gets warm again.

 

Any engine you find in a scrap yard should be rebuilt with new head gaskets, seals, etc. Not because they are bad, but because the condition is unknown and replacing the parts is so easy with the engine out. So unless you have a bad lower end, which I agree with your dealers assessment that it is unlikely, I would fix the engine currently in the car.

That's likely what I will do. Other than for the head-gasket failure I wanted to be sure there weren't other common problems that pop up as a result. It doesn't sound like coolant typicaly gets sucked into the cylinder, or folks at least catch this early enough before damage is done.

 

Labour and part costs seem to be much higher in the US than in Canada for some reason.

Part of the reason I used to do my own labor. Then again, I also enjoyed the work and knew it was getting done right.

 

Thanks for the info.

[theotherskip]

sorry to hear of all your troubles.

 

i wrote a site all about changing the head gasket and clutch. you can view it here . it's hard to predict if you will have any big problems in the coming years, but it seems that you currently have most of the problems that you can possibly have. its not too hard to do the work, but it does take a while. even with a bad back, there isn't much heavy lifting involved, so you could consider doing it yourself if interested...

[lmdew]

If you want to sell the car let me know what you need for it. I'm looking for a standard OBW 97-99 with a bad engine. Lmdew@hotmail.com